By the numbers: US police kill more in days than other countries do in years

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JSinUK said:
Katykid23, some cops in the UK carry guns and most European police forces are fully armed. Yet US cops do shoot many more people per head than these other police forces. So far as that goes, the Guardian article is accurate.

But it is not the full picture because you are making a valid point. In terms of gun crime at least, the USA is far more violent, with many more shootings per head of population than in the UK or most of Europe. I believe that availability is an issue here, with guns being readily available to most people. Inevitably this means the bad guys can very easily get hold of them too and are mostly tooled up with them in consequence. This also means that the lawbreakers whom police confront or chase down are themselves far more likely to be armed and to start shooting. And even if they are not armed or don't use their guns, the fear that they might be armed and likely to shoot is bound to be much more in the forefront of a police officer's mind. I haven't researched the statistics but I'd be surprised if police deaths from shootings are not substantially higher in the US.

But the issue of availability is a political hot potato for Americans, with the right to bear arms enshrined in the constitution and regarded as a fundamental freedom by millions. I may be a Brit but I know enough to understand that. So as a politically controvertial subject, I'll stear clear of saying anything more about that. The right to bear arms versus gun control in the USA aint my beef. That issue is one I'll leave to Americans.

But to some extent, greater resort to firearms on the part of the police might be due to the fact that the bad guys shoot at them much more often.

However, having acknowledged that, there has emerged some video evidence of individual police officers shooting in very questionable circumstances, apparently believing that they can do so without consequences. The public has a right to feel safe from the police as well as to feel protected by them, and such episodes do much damage to that. Bad apples need to be rooted out and punished for the good standing of the great majority of decent officers out there.

Also, just because the job of anybody - police officer, soldier, sailor, fireman, etc - involves endangering themselves to protect others does not and should not exonerate them from all potential criticism. It is part of the checks and balances in any free society that those who uphold the law must be accountable for their actions and occasionally open to criticism. If they cease to be, that is dangerous.
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Thank You for recognizing and understanding what I was trying to say. Specifically:

"... because you are making a valid point. In terms of gun crime at least, the USA is far more violent, with many more shootings per head of population than in the UK or most of Europe. I believe that availability is an issue here, with guns being readily available to most people. Inevitably this means the bad guys can very easily get hold of them too and are mostly tooled up with them in consequence. This also means that the lawbreakers whom police confront or chase down are themselves far more likely to be armed and to start shooting. And even if they are not armed or don't use their guns, the fear that they might be armed and likely to shoot is bound to be much more in the forefront of a police officer's mind. I haven't researched the statistics but I'd be surprised if police deaths from shootings are not substantially higher in the US..."


That ^^^ is what I have been trying to express. It seems very unfair to hold up the statistics between cops in the US and various other nations, with far less gun violence.

And of course, I agree with you that :

"Bad apples need to be rooted out and punished for the good standing of the great majority of decent officers out there."


I totally agree that we need to hold officers accountable and should be open to criticism when they fall short, cross lines and/or ethical boundaries. No argument from me. But it is unfair to try and claim that the entire nations police force is militaristic, brutal, out of control, etc. And I think articles, such as the one in the OP of this thread, are wrongly doing so, unfairly. JMO
 
JSinUK said:
All this is true. And yes, there will always be those with an anti-cop agenda who will exploit any cases of bad apples behaving badly. But closing ranks to protect the bad apple, trying to close down all criticism whilst taking no action against he or she who has abused the authority of their uniform, simply provides those with anti-cop agendas with heaven-sent ammunition. It plays right into their hands and does all good cops no favours at all

The way to kick their agenda into touch is to be seen to weed out the bad apples, punish genuine wrongdoing, demonstrate that the police themselves are not above the law, and thereby reinforce the good standing of the vast majority of decent cops out there.
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I agree. But it is also unfair to jump on EVERY officer that uses force, and try to make it seem something that it was not. I have seen that happen over and over again recently. Even justified uses of force are being grabbed on to and used by certain activists, in a DISHONEST WAY, to try and twist the circumstances. They lump all of the shootings together AS IF all of them were outrageous and unjustified. It is dishonest and frustrating for many of us.
 
This argument is always so tiresome to me to compare countries with hundreds of thousands of citizens to a country with 300 million citizens.
 
I'll tel you what: anyone who can solve the layered issue of the US + violent crime + police incidents + compared to rest of the world in one post here on WS gets a dollar from me.

:happydance:
 
katydid23 said:
I agree. But it is also unfair to jump on EVERY officer that uses force, and try to make it seem something that it was not. I have seen that happen over and over again recently. Even justified uses of force are being grabbed on to and used by certain activists, in a DISHONEST WAY, to try and twist the circumstances. They lump all of the shootings together AS IF all of them were outrageous and unjustified. It is dishonest and frustrating for many of us.
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Oh, that doesn't surprise me, and I fully understand how frustrating that must be. Especially if you are a cop on the recieving end of such misrepresentation or your buddies are.

But cams can be very small these days. Maybe one solution would be for all officers to wear cams of some kind somewhere on their person whilst on duty. That way, whatever happens will be caught on film exactly how it plays out. Bad apples only need fear this, and in fact would be less likely to behave like bad apples. Whilst all good cops would have the video evidence to back up their claims that their response was a reasonable one. Certainly, it would make it much harder for the ill-intentioned to misrepresent anything if what took place is on film.
 
First of all, the area I used to live in in the UK (SE London)people were shot every week.
It never made the papers it was so common -- still is. Katy you seriously think there is no "lack of fathers in the home, rampant drug usage, and severe poverty" in SE London???
Just look at the difference, how Swedish cops deal with troublemakers. This video is online for a reason. Swedish cops don't grab their gun and shoot at the threat, they trust their brains and physique, and show empathy, until everything is over and dealt with.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ll-duty-stop-brutal-assault-subway-train.html
Guess what, the suspects survived, and so did the police.

I've done a lot of research on one actress for my job and have used Chronicling America a lot. What I have learned from that, apart from the obvious research, is that in those days, COPS RAN! Imagine that! They ran until they caught the criminal! Who was usually always armed!! Now how can that be?
I know the answer, do you?
 
Hiandmighty said:
I'll tel you what: anyone who can solve the layered issue of the US + violent crime + police incidents + compared to rest of the world in one post here on WS gets a dollar from me.

:happydance:
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Only a dollar? I think anyone who can solve all that to everyone's satisfaction in a few sentences has got to be worth a fortune. :smile:
 
People seem to be under the misguided notion that the cops are the brutal ones and wield all of the power, and are never victimized. Just a quick google of recent incidents can show another side of things:

link:
http://wn.ktvu.com/story/29230735/2015/06/03/police-officer-assaulted-while-trying-to-break-up-fight

Police officer assaulted while trying to break up fight

A man is accused of attacking a police officer near 17th Avenue and Van Buren on Wednesday.

The officer was reportedly trying to break up a fight when he was knocked off his motorcycle.

Witnesses say the officer was on his motorcycle when he noticed two people fighting.

It's not clear what started the fight or if then men knew each other.

The officer headed down the street to break the fight up, but when he got up close, one of the men turned his attention to the cop.

"when he got there, he honked his horn, and the gentleman that they took into custody turned around and swung at him...and knocked him off his bike, and continued going at him with his fist," said Pam White, a witness.


http://wreg.com/2015/05/25/police-officer-attacked-on-beale-street-while-trying-to-help-a-woman/


That’s where a Memphis Police Officer saw a woman being assaulted.

According to the police report, the officer said he saw a woman being forced by a man into a maroon Kia with Illinois tags.

He identified himself as a cop, showed his badge and told the man, 34-year-old Philip Boyd, to sit on the curb.

That’s when police said the Kia pulled up to the curb and another man, Christopher Logan, got out.

The report said Logan and Boyd started kicking, stomping and hitting the officer in the head and upper body, leaving him scraped and bruised.

He was knocked down and his $600 watch was stolen.


http://www.tpnn.com/2014/08/24/video-police-officer-beaten-to-a-pulp-by-unarmed-man/

VIDEO: Police Officer Beaten to a Pulp by UNARMED Man


http://www.wsaz.com/home/headlines/...saulted-Tested-For-Hepatitis-C-306554941.html

MILTON, W.Va. (WSAZ) -- A Milton Police officer is awaiting test results to tell him whether or not he contracted Hepatitis C, after being assaulted Friday.

All police officers know that with the job comes serious risks, and on Friday a Milton police officer was exposed to one of those risks.

The officer had to be tested for Hepatitis C after police say he was assaulted by Gregory Sovine.

Marylin McNeely's grandson made the initial call to police. She says Sovine was intoxicated when he drove into their yard and began harassing him.

"The guy was cussing him and threatening him," McNeely said.

Sovine finally drove away but McNeely followed him to Prichard Road where police caught up and the fight unfolded.
 
katydid23 said:
People seem to be under the misguided notion that the cops are the brutal ones and wield all of the power, and are never victimized. Just a quick google of recent incidents can show another side of things:

link:
http://wn.ktvu.com/story/29230735/2015/06/03/police-officer-assaulted-while-trying-to-break-up-fight

Police officer assaulted while trying to break up fight

A man is accused of attacking a police officer near 17th Avenue and Van Buren on Wednesday.

The officer was reportedly trying to break up a fight when he was knocked off his motorcycle.

Witnesses say the officer was on his motorcycle when he noticed two people fighting.

It's not clear what started the fight or if then men knew each other.

The officer headed down the street to break the fight up, but when he got up close, one of the men turned his attention to the cop.

"when he got there, he honked his horn, and the gentleman that they took into custody turned around and swung at him...and knocked him off his bike, and continued going at him with his fist," said Pam White, a witness.


http://wreg.com/2015/05/25/police-officer-attacked-on-beale-street-while-trying-to-help-a-woman/


That’s where a Memphis Police Officer saw a woman being assaulted.

According to the police report, the officer said he saw a woman being forced by a man into a maroon Kia with Illinois tags.

He identified himself as a cop, showed his badge and told the man, 34-year-old Philip Boyd, to sit on the curb.

That’s when police said the Kia pulled up to the curb and another man, Christopher Logan, got out.

The report said Logan and Boyd started kicking, stomping and hitting the officer in the head and upper body, leaving him scraped and bruised.

He was knocked down and his $600 watch was stolen.


http://www.tpnn.com/2014/08/24/video-police-officer-beaten-to-a-pulp-by-unarmed-man/

VIDEO: Police Officer Beaten to a Pulp by UNARMED Man


http://www.wsaz.com/home/headlines/...saulted-Tested-For-Hepatitis-C-306554941.html

MILTON, W.Va. (WSAZ) -- A Milton Police officer is awaiting test results to tell him whether or not he contracted Hepatitis C, after being assaulted Friday.

All police officers know that with the job comes serious risks, and on Friday a Milton police officer was exposed to one of those risks.

The officer had to be tested for Hepatitis C after police say he was assaulted by Gregory Sovine.

Marylin McNeely's grandson made the initial call to police. She says Sovine was intoxicated when he drove into their yard and began harassing him.

"The guy was cussing him and threatening him," McNeely said.

Sovine finally drove away but McNeely followed him to Prichard Road where police caught up and the fight unfolded.
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Yeah, cops get assaulted, injured, hospitalised, and even killed, over here too.

As far as I am concerned, those responsible need to be punished with the full weight of the law.

But I don't think anyone in this thread was trying to claim that cops themselves are not sometimes victims too. It happens.
 
JSinUK said:
Yeah, cops get assaulted, injured, hospitalised, and even killed, over here too.

As far as I am concerned, those responsible need to be punished with the full weight of the law.

But I don't think anyone in this thread was trying to claim that cops themselves are not sometimes victims too. It happens.
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Right. It happens. I only pointed it out because I got the feeling that some here mistakenly thought that our cops INSTANTLY pull their guns and shoot at the first sign of any trouble. And these examples show that is not so.
 
katydid23 said:
Right. It happens. I only pointed it out because I got the feeling that some here mistakenly thought that our cops INSTANTLY pull their guns and shoot at the first sign of any trouble. And these examples show that is not so.
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Others here can speak for themselves. But I from the start differentiated from those cops whom I have portrayed as a minority of bad apples, from the rest whom I have described as "the vast majority of decent cops".

I disagreed with you initially purely because I got the feeling that you thought cops should be above criticism. But it subsequently became clear that what you are really against is a few bad cops being used to portray all cops as bad. And I can understand the frustration of that.

I don't think that we actually disagree nearly as much as maybe we both thought we did to start with.
 
Maybe we should compare the # of cops killed by violence in the US versus the # of cops killed by violence in England.
 
katydid23 said:
Right. It happens. I only pointed it out because I got the feeling that some here mistakenly thought that our cops INSTANTLY pull their guns and shoot at the first sign of any trouble. And these examples show that is not so.
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What I would like to know is how many police officers are murdered/shot/assaulted by felons or ex-cons or stabbed in the line of duty in the USA compared to other countries mentioned in the article.
 
Kip said:
Maybe we should compare the # of cops killed by violence in the US versus the # of cops killed by violence in England.
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There were very few cops killed in the UK in 2013/2014.

There were also very few civilians killed in the UK in those years.

And if you compare the numbers with an analysis of variance, you'll see that it is just a lot more likely for a civilian to be killed by LE if s/he lives in the USA.

I went to church and brunch with a woman I was dating when I was in grad school in Illinois. She told me that her dad was a ranked officer in LE in an area adjacent to where I had matriculated for my PhD. During the brunch, he made a point of showing me that he carried two sidearms with him -- even at a post-church Sunday brunch. My first thought was that he should probably be in prison. And while I liked his daughter, I started to worry for her more.

Come to think of it, I don't want her or her mother or brother to get any more negative secondary publicity for being related to someone who was put away for unjust kills -- and probably not his first.

While I know other bad cops, I do also know some good cops, the sort that could be good friends with anyone. I started this thread because the statistics show that something is going wrong, and not just on the perp side. It is complicated. What matters here is that for whatever reason, American LE have been statistically shown to be a bit trigger happy -- and it is a shame.
 
Montjoy said:
There were very few cops killed in the UK in 2013/2014.

There were also very few civilians killed in the UK in those years.

And if you compare the numbers with an analysis of variance, you'll see that it is just a lot more likely for a civilian to be killed by LE if s/he lives in the USA.

I went to church and brunch with a woman I was dating when I was in grad school in Illinois. She told me that her dad was a ranked officer in LE in an area adjacent to where I had matriculated for my PhD. During the brunch, he made a point of showing me that he carried two sidearms with him -- even at a post-church Sunday brunch. My first thought was that he should probably be in prison. And while I liked his daughter, I started to worry for her more.

Come to think of it, I don't want her or her mother or brother to get any more negative secondary publicity for being related to someone who was put away for unjust kills -- and probably not his first.

While I know other bad cops, I do also know some good cops, the sort that could be good friends with anyone. I started this thread because the statistics show that something is going wrong, and not just on the perp side. It is complicated. What matters here is that for whatever reason, American LE have been statistically shown to be a bit trigger happy -- and it is a shame.
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So are you saying that if an LAPD officer goes to Sunday brunch with a concealed weapon, that means he 'should be in prison?'

It is routine for LE officers in the gang detail to ALWAYS be armed---especially when out in public with their families. That is standard protocol. You never know when you are going to run into someone you have arrested, out on the street. There have been officers who have been followed home and attacked or shot at in a drive by while out with their families.

As for your assertion that American LE has been shown statistically to be a bit trigger happy---links please. And I don't mean this silly article in the Guardian comparing them to officers in Wales and Iceland. :facepalm:
 
I doubt you'll agree with any statistics. I mean, I read one of your posts earlier that was just a bunch of anecdotes.

The article I linked initially was statistical. It wasn't a series of stories about how some LEO were great, because that would be useless.

I guess this is sort of useless. Did you know that Germany went through an entire year recently without its LE killing one person? It's not a small country, nor is it without crime, nor is it without guns.

Could it possibly be that there are just more bad cops in the US? I'm sure that your son is one of the good ones. But he's not the only cop in the USA.
 
Did you say that friend's dad should be in prison because he carries a sidearm?
 
Two of us have asked you this question. Please clarify.

"During the brunch, he made a point of showing me that he carried two sidearms with him -- even at a post-church Sunday brunch. My first thought was he should probably be in prison."
 
Oh, are you asking my opinion based on his carrying two sidearms to church and brunch? Well, it's sort of irrelevant now, as he's in prison, and this thread is not about him, nor is it about exposing his daughter.

eta - I do not think that a person carrying a weapon when and where they are legally entitled to do so is justification for arresting them.
 
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