Auntie Cipation
Context Matters.
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2018
- Messages
- 3,441
- Reaction score
- 33,261
And are the photos from the mainstream Merced or from the South Fork Merced?What month and year were they taken?
And are the photos from the mainstream Merced or from the South Fork Merced?What month and year were they taken?
I can't really see how there would be a marijuana grow on steep (and recently burned) ground so near to the popular (when it's not 110*) trails and to the river which I presume to be popular for recreating except for the algae issue -- (which raises the question: is this year the first time the algae blooms have been an issue? Or is it a regular thing now?)
In any case I would expect any illegal mj grows to be in the backcountry away from formal maintained and popular trails. Somewhere with a small unknown side creek they can suck water from without anyone knowing, not the South Fork Merced River.
I really don't know how big a problem that is or isn't (frankly I expected illegal grows on federal land to disappear altogether once mj became legal but apparently it hasn't so I am clueless about these details). But this area just doesn't seem like a probable spot to me personally.
And in addition, I don't think a passing encounter with applied herbicide/pesticide runoff would cause instant death? I think it would be a much more subtle or cumulative problem if there was frequent repeated exposure. Unless they literally drank a bottle of it straight? Which makes no sense in this case. MOO
What month and year were they taken?
MOO - I need to correct what I wrote in this post because I made a distinction that’s not warranted. Fish kills are caused by algae blooms of all kinds, including blue-green algae. But again, it’s not because of cyanobacteria toxins. It’s because these blooms must eventually die, and when they do, the microbes that decay them deplete the water of oxygen, suffocating fish in large numbers.MOO - A fish kill, which I think is what you’re referring to, is a completely different occurrence. It’s caused by plant-like algae (not blue-green algae) using up all the dissolved oxygen in the water, thereby suffocating all the local fish. That’s not what causes an algae warning for dogs and humans. And I haven’t seen any documents indicating a fish kill in the South Fork Merced, or any water tests indicating toxic algae upstream from Hites Cove.
There are past photos from both.And are the photos from the mainstream Merced or from the South Fork Merced?
MOO - I need to correct what I wrote in this post because I made a distinction that’s not warranted. Fish kills are caused by algae blooms of all kinds, including blue-green algae. But again, it’s not because of cyanobacteria toxins. It’s because these blooms must eventually die, and when they do, the microbes that decay them deplete the water of oxygen, suffocating fish in large numbers.
MOO
If they are using pesticides that are so lethal that it would kill a family walking by, I would expect the growers to all be dead as well.And in addition, I don't think a passing encounter with applied herbicide/pesticide runoff would cause instant death? I think it would be a much more subtle or cumulative problem if there was frequent repeated exposure. Unless they literally drank a bottle of it straight? Which makes no sense in this case. MOO
“The dose makes the poison,” as they say. Anything can kill if the dose is high enough, including water and oxygen. The study you posted described baby fish in a laboratory aquarium being artificially exposed to freeze-dried anatoxin-a for a period of time until they died. It’s not a study of what fish are exposed to in a natural setting. I’m not aware of any fish kill caused by anatoxin-a. In fact, most algae warnings say don’t eat the fish because they might bioaccumulate the toxin rather than die from it. MOOThe toxins that were found in that river can also kill fish, I posted an academic article elsewhere.
“The dose makes the poison,” as they say. Anything can kill if the dose is high enough, including water and oxygen. The study you posted described baby fish in a laboratory aquarium being artificially exposed to freeze-dried anatoxin-a for a period of time until they died. It’s not a study of what fish are exposed to in a natural setting. I’m not aware of any fish kill caused by anatoxin-a. In fact, most algae warnings say don’t eat the fish because they might bioaccumulate the toxin rather than die from it. MOO
I agree. I doubt anyone would be growing weed in that area.
Too hot, bad soil, algae in the water.
jmo
Ah. I’m getting the theories mixed up. So we are talking about potentially being exposed to a toxin and then succumbing as a result? I suppose it’s possible. It depends on how long it would take to make them sick. Because it looks like they were halfway up the hill back to the car when they succumbed? Do I have that right?
If the concentration is significant enough the toxin can also kill fish per the study.MOO - I need to correct what I wrote in this post because I made a distinction that’s not warranted. Fish kills are caused by algae blooms of all kinds, including blue-green algae. But again, it’s not because of cyanobacteria toxins. It’s because these blooms must eventually die, and when they do, the microbes that decay them deplete the water of oxygen, suffocating fish in large numbers.
MOO
Yes, @Rocky Mountain Hi, there are several viable theories, aren't there? And even more that are unspeakable.
As far as illegal grow ops, I am generally always concerned about pesticide contamination. But with regards to this case, my attention has zeroed in on the common use by grow operators of Carbofuran to intentionally poison animals who raid food and supplies in their camp sites and more recently, humans who threaten their operations / livelihood (e.g. LE). [see Audubon article ^^^.]
In addition to the Audubon article I posted early this morning, here is a wiki post on Carbonfuran that declares it "...is one of the most toxic pesticides still in use." and "has one of the highest acute toxicities to humans of any insecticide widely used on field crops... ). I ml (1/4 teaspoon) can be fatal to humans."
Carbofuran - Wikipedia
Per the Audubon article, IF the family was exposed to Carbofuran it could be Oski ate from a bait trap on the trail intended for coyotes, racoons, etc. and/or they splashed through contaminated water on the trail or a dump site and/or maybe they tripped a boobie trap that sprayed them...
I think all that sounds remote in terms of theory possibility for this case. But recall @Coquette who lives near this area has reported here LE has recently been cracking down on illegal grow ops so I wonder about heightened security and defenses around them.