CA - Massive fire at Oakland warehouse party, 36 dead, 2 Dec 2016 #2

[Philigumbo]

My condolences, Gitana. I'm so sorry for the loss of Jennifer.

 

[Ian]

New article from this morning, it delves a bit deeper into the experiences of living inside the Ghost Ship and also of encounters with DIA and family. I get the appeal of living in a place like this, but see the danger and drawbacks as well.

$300. for renting essentially a wooden platform inside a warehouse- and sharing a bathroom with maybe 20 other tenants.............DIA (imo) saw these people as a target to scam.



"Two years ago in August, Marsh had finally found his own pad in the Bay Area for $300 a month.

At the back of a warehouse in Oakland, above an old RV, Marsh hoisted his bed up a 12-foot ladder to a piece of plywood atop four wooden stilts.

It was more fort than loft — for walls, he hung Moroccan fabric from the building’s ceiling joists.

The manager and his longtime partner stopped by. Two days before, he had met them and their three children, and came away liking their sense of artistic whimsy and charm.

<modsnip>

**


http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-ghost-ship-20161209-story.html

 

[Fairy1]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/artists-...e-fire-that-killed-at-least-36-214701301.html

Sorry if this has already been posted. Such beautiful, vibrant people.

 

[rsd1200]

The attacks on these fire victims and their families really struck a nerve with me. I have been on social media almost since it happened flagging their hurtful comments and reporting them and their accounts. Makes me wonder what is wrong with people. There were several of us fighting the trolls and we managed to get a lot of their garbage removed from the various pages.

.
I agree. When one is cash-strapped you don't have the choices that others do who have sufficient cash. Sometimes you have to make do and hope for the best until you can pull yourself out of that situation. I've noticed that former residents who've commented on the negative conditions, say that it wasn't what they thought it would be, and lived there for only a few months in most cases. It seems that after they got in there, and realized the dream of fixing the place up into a safe space, wan't going to happen, they left asap. I will say though that the same happened during the Gatlinburg wildfires where people died fleeing a firestorm that they had no way of knowing about. I was shocked at the horrible things that people said about the people who lost their lives, and those who lived but lost everything they owned, in that living Hell. I often wonder where compassion has gone.

Another article I found interesting re; what some expected when they moved in and some comments on Ion.

[FONT=&amp]&#8220;He knew all of it,&#8221; Mack said. &#8220;We argued a lot. They said they would fix things, and then they would collect money. They never would use the money to fix things.&#8221;[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]Almena&#8217;s Facebook posts, under the account Derick Ion, hinted at what some described as his growing instability. Others say drug use was widespread at the warehouse.[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]&#8220;Addictions never admitted armed me as revolutionary,&#8221; he wrote. &#8220;&#8230; as long as i seek help and healing, have current registration, pay my insurance, piss in a cup twice weekly &#8230; i can proverbally (sic) get away with murder.&#8221;[/FONT]

http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2016/12/04/oakland-warehouse-fire-who-is-the-man-behind-the-ghost-ship/

 

[Ian]

Import Info on DIA,



(I just find this interesting)

 

[human]

Another article

http://www.pressherald.com/2016/12/05/who-is-the-man-behind-the-ghost-ship/

 

[Ian]

Satya Yuga Site

"SATYA YUGA once again spins the riddle trick of twisted wood and bone. The living offering of our sacred seat. new fusions of unprecedented beauty. Shadowed and familiar &#8230;.. Our Ghost Ship&#8230; In this time. crashed upon the shore of Babylon. Resurrected as a tattered temple tethered to impossible promises and broken truths &#8230; An invitation to seduce .
wandering lovers and desperate characters&#8230;
Come sit with us. Sip Chai with us . As honored guests&#8230; And friends..
To witness our fantastic and tender existence."

http://symbiosisgathering.com/satya-yuga/


Satya Yuga Facebook link:

"Seeking all shamanic rattlesnake sexy jungle jazz hobo gunslingers looking for a space to house gear, use studio, develop next level Shaolin discipline after driving your taxi cab late at night, build fusion earth home bomb bunker spelunker shelters, and plant herbaceous colonies in the open sun & air.

We are a collective of musicians, painters, woodworkers, hot dog vendors, scrappers, boutique designers and lingerie models."

https://www.facebook.com/satyayugacollective/

 

[MistyM]

i just listened to fire victim Cash Askew's music on youtube, it's so gorgeous and beautiful.

Them Are Us Too, song called Eudaemonia

[video=youtube;hA2onxrh_9g]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA2onxrh_9g[/video]

 

[Jax49]

WARNING: Open casket photo.

Oakland Ghost Ship fire's victims memorialized

http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-ln-ghostship-memorials-20161210-story.html

In a small mortuary in Los Angeles’ Koreatown, they remembered a young artist with a laugh that roared up from deep in her belly and dragged everyone else in the room into hysterics.
The funeral for Ara Christina Jo, 29, Saturday morning showed the wide scope of humanity shattered by the Oakland warehouse fire.

RIP Ara

 

[Spellbound]

The attacks on these fire victims and their families really struck a nerve with me. I have been on social media almost since it happened flagging their hurtful comments and reporting them and their accounts. Makes me wonder what is wrong with people. There were several of us fighting the trolls and we managed to get a lot of their garbage removed from the various pages.

Thank you for your attempts to keep the pages civil and respectful. I am always shocked and saddened at the lack of courtesy shown in social media these days, and how some people I see behave.

WARNING: Open casket photo.

Oakland Ghost Ship fire's victims memorialized

http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-ln-ghostship-memorials-20161210-story.html



RIP Ara

it relieved some of my worries to know there could be open casket funerals. Not sure if that was true for all the victims. But I hope so. RIP, Ara Jo.

 

[Hatfield]

Does anyone see an immediate solution? Cities cannot turn their backs and pretend the dangers do not exist, They cannot afford the lawsuits. And the first responders see enough trauma.

So what can be done?

Good question.

Ive been trying to think of what could help cities and communities such as this where the city doesnt want to throw people on the street and yet they cant just afford to build nice new apartments for tenants that have little or no money.

This city may already have something like this where the city subsidies a large portion of the rent in rent houses that are part of the program. The "subsidies rent program" is for low income families that meet an income requirement. The rents are very reasonable because the city picks up a large portion of the tab.

But I think the rules of programs like this are for single "families" and the families cannot sublease to others. Which brings up one of the reasons people wanted to live at the "ghost ship" was a little more than just needing an inexpensive place to live. There seems to be some desire to want to live together in more of a group setting of like minded individuals. Which makes this situation unique and has unique challenges for a city.

Im not sure of the numbers of communal type living structures that the city is currently dealing with. If the numbers are significant then one thought that occurred to me is I have to wonder if something I read about in an unrelated case could maybe help. Shipping containers possibly could be used and made to be fitted to be both safe and also allow the communal aspect of the living quarters. Thinking along the lines of bringing in the containers inside of a single large structure but have them each setup side by side with a fire wall between each one which could be material that would help prevent the spreading of a fire from one unit to the next.

Not sure if that is even feasible or would have other drawbacks but the thought of the shipping containers being made of steel kept me wondering if they could be considered to help a city out to provide inexpensive group type living that the people want and yet make it safer for them and still affordable.

Regardless of how units are setup the use of a true fire wall is critical. I worked home construction a long time ago and when we built certain apartments we had to build each apartment unit with what we called a "fire wall". What this meant to us was the two apartments would not share a single side wall between them. What we would do is build a gap inbetween the apartments walls and so each apartment had their own ending side wall made of 2 X 6. There was a required gap inbetween the side walls of both apartments and we filled this gap with a fire retardant insulation material. This was done instead of having both apartments share a single 2X6 wall. Both apartments would have their own 2X6 side wall with a gap between them.

The fire wall gap served the purpose of helping to prevent a fire in one apartment from easily spreading to another. It also helped greatly with noise reduction from hearing neighbors. Keep in mind it did not totally prevent a fire from being able to ignite an adjacent apartment but it did help slow down a spreading fire with the hope that fire companies could come in time to put the fire out before it kept engulfing all the adjacent apartments.

There were rules we had to follow in the construction of these apartment units and these "fire walls" were part of our rules.

Tying that back to the shipping container group living idea. The key would be to not have the units be touching each other but have a gap of lets say 1-2 feet between each unit and then have that gap filled with some fire retardant insulated material. Combined with the steel walls it seems like this could be an effective anti fire living space and still provide group type living that some people may want in order to live with like minded people. It seems like it would also be somewhat affordable as compared to traditional apartment living. I dont know about that though as the costs of setting these up may end up being more than I realize.

Anyway this was just something I kept thinking of as I read two other unrelated cases and shipping containers were part of the cases.

No matter what the city ends up doing I would hope they consider all ideas from others and try to come up with some improvements to help prevent another tragedy such as this.

 

[alsleuther]

https://www.facebook.com/maxharrisart?fref=ts&ref=br_tf

Max Ohr, who is described as Derick's right hand man, (and is in this picture) was collecting money at the front door the night of the fire. His Facebook is still set to public and it's interesting to read.

He wrote this on 12/9

"Max Ohr We all gathered at Dennys for water, togetherness, and a place to talk, as everyone in that photo is now homeless and grieving. The older waiter, who worked at that Denny's for 18 years asked to take a picture and we let him, because he seemed sincere. I can't believe he would have given or sold it to TMZ, maybe it was another patron,either way that is what I am hearing. There's people everywhere trying to frame the narrative of this situation all different ways."

 

[FindHG]

Good question.

Ive been trying to think of what could help cities and communities such as this where the city doesnt want to throw people on the street and yet they cant just afford to build nice new apartments for tenants that have little or no money.

This city may already have something like this where the city subsidies a large portion of the rent in rent houses that are part of the program. The "subsidies rent program" is for low income families that meet an income requirement. The rents are very reasonable because the city picks up a large portion of the tab.

But I think the rules of programs like this are for single "families" and the families cannot sublease to others. Which brings up one of the reasons people wanted to live at the "ghost ship" was a little more than just needing an inexpensive place to live. There seems to be some desire to want to live together in more of a group setting of like minded individuals. Which makes this situation unique and has unique challenges for a city.

Im not sure of the numbers of communal type living structures that the city is currently dealing with. If the numbers are significant then one thought that occurred to me is I have to wonder if something I read about in an unrelated case could maybe help. Shipping containers possibly could be used and made to be fitted to be both safe and also allow the communal aspect of the living quarters. Thinking along the lines of bringing in the containers inside of a single large structure but have them each setup side by side with a fire wall between each one which could be material that would help prevent the spreading of a fire from one unit to the next.

Not sure if that is even feasible or would have other drawbacks but the thought of the shipping containers being made of steel kept me wondering if they could be considered to help a city out to provide inexpensive group type living that the people want and yet make it safer for them and still affordable.

Regardless of how units are setup the use of a true fire wall is critical. I worked home construction a long time ago and when we built certain apartments we had to build each apartment unit with what we called a "fire wall". What this meant to us was the two apartments would not share a single side wall between them. What we would do is build a gap inbetween the apartments walls and so each apartment had their own ending side wall made of 2 X 6. There was a required gap inbetween the side walls of both apartments and we filled this gap with a fire retardant insulation material. This was done instead of having both apartments share a single 2X6 wall. Both apartments would have their own 2X6 side wall with a gap between them.

The fire wall gap served the purpose of helping to prevent a fire in one apartment from easily spreading to another. It also helped greatly with noise reduction from hearing neighbors. Keep in mind it did not totally prevent a fire from being able to ignite an adjacent apartment but it did help slow down a spreading fire with the hope that fire companies could come in time to put the fire out before it kept engulfing all the adjacent apartments.

There were rules we had to follow in the construction of these apartment units and these "fire walls" were part of our rules.

Tying that back to the shipping container group living idea. The key would be to not have the units be touching each other but have a gap of lets say 1-2 feet between each unit and then have that gap filled with some fire retardant insulated material. Combined with the steel walls it seems like this could be an effective anti fire living space and still provide group type living that some people may want in order to live with like minded people. It seems like it would also be somewhat affordable as compared to traditional apartment living. I dont know about that though as the costs of setting these up may end up being more than I realize.

Anyway this was just something I kept thinking of as I read two other unrelated cases and shipping containers were part of the cases.

No matter what the city ends up doing I would hope they consider all ideas from others and try to come up with some improvements to help prevent another tragedy such as this.

Thank you for this detailed consideration. Got me to thinking, Hatfield, so a bit of opinion follows. For any city, its artists are what gives it its cultural caliber, its potential to thrive, because regardless of how many commodities and ideas are exchanged there, without active creativity flowing through it's streets, as part of it's lifeblood, it just another Cleaveland, as Mark Twain made the point in his time. This was before Rock'n'Roll, of course. Twain thought New York, New Orleans and San Francisco the exceptions as great cities, again at the time. New York maintained that status, in large part, by efforts of the community there to build places such as Lincoln Center, and subsidies housing for artists around it, as just one historical example, that worked. That revitalized a whole neighborhood, the Upper West Side. The same pattern repeated in the Village, in Soho, as has in San Francisco, where artists serves as the front line of gentrification and reclamation of areas. The news silicon wealth is far from cultured in that sense. It's lifeblood is ephemeral group think trendiness which plays to vapid impermanence and the sensationalism. So forethought and concern for the arts would be a fluke, or would have to become trendy enough to tap. New Orleans continues the tradition, from it's origins, with places like these http://www.artspace.org/our-places/bell-artspace-campus#tab-node_place_full_group_property.

 

[CARIIS]

You know what struck me in terms of the landlord.

By all accounts thus far , other than warehouse folks, landlords seemed to liked by other tenants , who were not overtly breaking laws as far as we know.

I think culture plays a very important role here. Generally speaking , their cultures tend to be soft spoken, non agressive, respectful of others, trusting,etcetc.

Thus far the only data we have is that when made aware of issues , they were addressed.

That is even true in the first warehouse issue.

Legally I do not know if that matters but in terms of public opinion, I would think some of the "rage" might lesson as we learn that they did address issues.

17 properties is enough , I would think, for a pattern of apathy to emerge - that does not seem to be the case.

There lack of media attn might also be more cultural as opposed to hiding cause of any blame etc

moo

 

[CARIIS]

Satya Yuga Site

"SATYA YUGA once again spins the riddle trick of twisted wood and bone. The living offering of our sacred seat. new fusions of unprecedented beauty. Shadowed and familiar ….. Our Ghost Ship… In this time. crashed upon the shore of Babylon. Resurrected as a tattered temple tethered to impossible promises and broken truths … An invitation to seduce .
wandering lovers and desperate characters…
Come sit with us. Sip Chai with us . As honored guests… And friends..
To witness our fantastic and tender existence."

http://symbiosisgathering.com/satya-yuga/


Satya Yuga Facebook link:

"Seeking all shamanic rattlesnake sexy jungle jazz hobo gunslingers looking for a space to house gear, use studio, develop next level Shaolin discipline after driving your taxi cab late at night, build fusion earth home bomb bunker spelunker shelters, and plant herbaceous colonies in the open sun & air.

We are a collective of musicians, painters, woodworkers, hot dog vendors, scrappers, boutique designers and lingerie models."

https://www.facebook.com/satyayugacollective/

Google could not translate it for me !!! Anyone have a clue??

 

[Hatfield]

Thank you for this detailed consideration. Got me to thinking, Hatfield, so a bit of opinion follows. For any city, its artists are what gives it its cultural caliber, its potential to thrive, because regardless of how many commodities and ideas are exchanged there, without active creativity flowing through it's streets, as part of it's lifeblood, it just another Cleaveland, as Mark Twain made the point in his time. This was before Rock'n'Roll, of course. Twain thought New York, New Orleans and San Francisco the exceptions as great cities, again at the time. New York maintained that status, in large part, by efforts of the community there to build places such as Lincoln Center, and subsidies housing for artists around it, as just one historical example, that worked. That revitalized a whole neighborhood, the Upper West Side. The same pattern repeated in the Village, in Soho, as has in San Francisco, where artists serves as the front line of gentrification and reclamation of areas. The news silicon wealth is far from cultured in that sense. It's lifeblood is ephemeral group think trendiness which plays to vapid impermanence and the sensationalism. So forethought and concern for the arts would be a fluke, or would have to become trendy enough to tap. New Orleans continues the tradition, from it's origins, with places like these http://www.artspace.org/our-places/bell-artspace-campus#tab-node_place_full_group_property.

I agree the culture of the people in a city is what makes some cities so special and so great. Your examples were good ones.

I have never been to the city or area where the fire happened but I have visited cities like San Francisco and Greenwich Village in NYC and they really are special cities. Independent Artists play a vital role in making those cities special.

We cannot lose that aspect or we all would suffer in a way. Officials just have to be careful with any changes they may make.

I recall being with my father visiting San Francisco and we were walking along near Pier 39. There was a small crowd gathered around someone and so we strolled over to see why. In the middle of the crowd was a street artist that was painting these amazingly beautiful paintings using nothing more than cans of colorful metallic spray paint.

He was knocking out these paintings in amazingly short time. Some he could do in 5 minutes or less and they looked like paintings that would have taken days to make. He was making up the prices as he went along and the prices were very reasonable. As I walked away carefully holding my still wet painting that I picked out and loved, my thoughts went towards how I hoped my small fee I paid would help him at least for a little bit.

When I ended up going back home I had the picture framed and now as I look at this beautifully framed picture on my wall I think back to how I hope I helped him out just a tiny bit by being one of his customers. And I was blessed by him too because I now have a treasured painting that really is incredible. It is futuristic in nature and looks like a picture the Hubble telescope would have taken. The quality is incredible.

Cities just have to be careful so they dont make the wrong moves and lose the things that make them special.

 

[vulture]

For any city, its artists are what gives it its cultural caliber, its potential to thrive, because regardless of how many commodities and ideas are exchanged there, without active creativity flowing through it's streets, as part of it's lifeblood, it just another Cleaveland, as Mark Twain made the point in his time.

I read an interesting book called "The Rise of The Creative Class" which advocates attracting creative people to cities and what kinds of things attract them. There is data in the book to back up the idea that creative people are needed in a community for economic health. Of course all creative people don't want or need to live in a commune-type situation, but having a workplace where the synergy between the different disciplines can flow together is incredibly stimulating. I experienced that briefly in the studio I was renting. We had an open house with a street festival going on outside with live music coming in. I was working in my space and feeling "in the zone". We had guest artists exhibiting and the public walking through and interacting and asking questions. The level of quality of work I was doing was at peak level. It was all safe and permitted and legal and above board. If only we could have sustained it financially. I sure do understand the appeal.

I'm also intrigued by the idea of building with shipping containers. I've seen some lovely pictures of repurposing them for homes.

 

[vulture]

I would also add that I read somewhere that the "in the zone" feeling that creative people get when they are operating at peak level is as addictive if not more so than recreational drugs. Having no experience with recreational drugs I will say that I find that plausible - the things we will do to get that feeling probably don't seem worth it to other people.

 

[CARIIS]

Oh that's bad- they just admitted culpability-knowing the property was being used illegally for purposes other than it was rented for. They are going to have major liability as well as Almena.

Who knows but my sense is Almena does not have a lot. In terms of civil liablity all its about is "net worth"

Sadly the reality here IMO, is the sheer number of those affected are not gonna gt
get all that much, and awards are decades away.

Remember OJ cival :

[FONT=&amp]Kim Goldman soon learned that winning the multimillion-dollar award was one thing, collecting it was another. "People assume that when we were awarded our civil judgment, that with that judgment we were handed a pot of gold, and that's just the furthest thing from the truth,"

[/FONT][FONT=&amp] O.J. Simpson's Heisman Trophy, which sold at auction for $500,000. "Most of that money went to pay some expenses for the case," Petrocelli said

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Her family's share of the award, with interest, is now close to $40 million. "We've collected less than one percent of that."( less than $400,000)...and they had resources to play the game .

Sue-win-nothing-how the game works moo

[/FONT]http://www.cnbc.com/2014/06/10/oj-simpson-murder-money-trial.html

If an individual or business debtor stubbornly refuses to pay a judgment or is insolvent (meaning business or person&#8217;s debts are greater than its assets), you may find it quite difficult to collect a judgment.

Unfortunately, if the person against whom you have the judgment files a Chapter 7 bankruptcy, your ability to collect is cut-off, like most other creditors.

Ion is worhtless. The owners already know there may be trouble head so in all liklihood stuff is being "arranged" - unable to touch.

OR they will just file bankcrpcy.

http://litigation.findlaw.com/filing-a-lawsuit/after-a-judgment-collecting-money.html

moo

IMO, the sad reality is all those effected have a choice. They can spend the next decade of their of lives reliving the nightmare, get a judgement, then get nothing, or try to slowly work on their losses emotionally.

just mo

 

[GigTu]

My deepest heartfelt sympathies to all who lost a loved one in this horrific tragedy. No matter any of their personal life circumstances, none of them deserved to perish that night, that way.

Anyone who spends even a millisecond nitpicking the personal lives of any of these innocent people should be disregarded as a hateful troll, and completely ignored. Find a way to gloss over, read past, and block such unnecessary vile. And do not respond to it. That's the fastest way to make them stop and for it to go away.

The most important thing now is to support and comfort those who are left behind, trying to make sense of their loss. I send my squeeziest hugs to our WS members, old and new, that may have been touched so personally by this fire.