Still Missing CA - Orson & Orrin West (3&4), California City, 21 Dec 2020 #4

[stattlich1]

I'm going to guess that furniture, bedding, and other items with the boys scent made the move from Bakersfield and the boys did not. This would account for dogs picking up the scent inside the house but not outside, as the boys were, Imo, never outside or inside the new house, only items with their scent.

The dog(s) would have to have been given an item specific to one of the boys, or each of them individually, to be familiarized with that boy's individual scent. So that item would have to have not been contaminated with other scent.

So that item, or items, had to have been provided to the SAR team/handler. A teddy that one of the boys slept with, a hat, gloves, or clothing worn by only the boy(s), etc.

I just happen to know a rather well know SAR team trainer

 

[stattlich1]

I was going to ask about this re:scent dogs. If items belonging to a person were moved to a new house, but the person was never in the house, would their scent still remain enough for a scent dog to pick up?

This is an important point. A dog would have to be able to be given an uncontaminated item belonging to the child so as to achieve a clean scent from which to begin. An item with several scents from numerous persons would not suffice.

So, there were items in that house that were scent specific to these boys, and the boys never really needed to be in that house, OR, the boys were in that house and the scent specific items were provided to the SAR team/handler and/or LE.

A human scent on an item can last a long time. The scent of those boys outside that home would likely, under normal circumstances, last one to two weeks or more.

Edited to add: The fact LE reports no scent was found outside that home means, to me, that the boys were not on that porch playing with chalk. And the boys did not wander out an open gate.

Now, theoretically, the bodies of the boys could have been sealed in some airtight container(s) and removed by parking a car in the garage, putting the containers in the car, and driving out from there.

 

[Algo214]

God my mind is racing with the latest posts and theories you guys have written.

Re: the older boys declarations: it's equally possible they said the 19th because they actually saw them that day or they fear someone in their home so they went along as to not be in harm's way.
If only they knew they were going to be removed from harm's way.

 

[charminglane]

Does the grandma we keep hearing about have foster/adopted kids living with her now? Aside from the West's "vacationing" children?

 

[Ontario Mom]

The parents say they took 6 boys Christmas shopping.
6 boys between the ages of 10 and 3.
Two of which have been described as "rambunctious".
On a Saturday afternoon.
The last Saturday before Christmas.
Statistically one of the busiest shopping days of the year.

As of a mother of 8, who has had to take kids shopping, I'm not buying that one for a moment.
But, if it were me, I'd make sure the lead LE on the case had access to my banking activity, as well as my google location history and/or gps data on my phone or my van, mobility data straight from the phone carrier showing where my phone was pinging that day, and hope they'd look at the surveillance cams from the stores I was in and made transactions in. To make sure they knew that's exactly where I was because all of those digital footprints would reconcile with each other.

If of course, I actually took my 6 kids Christmas shopping in Bakersfield, that day.
If not, all those records will tell a completely different story.
Modern tech is kind of awesome that way.
It doesn't have an agenda.

Just a little thinking outloud & entirely jmo

 

[kittythehare]

The parents say they took 6 boys Christmas shopping.
6 boys between the ages of 10 and 3.
Two of which have been described as "rambunctious".
On a Saturday afternoon.
The last Saturday before Christmas.
Statistically one of the busiest shopping days of the year.

As of a mother of 8, who has had to take kids shopping, I'm not buying that one for a moment.
But, if it were me, I'd make sure the lead LE on the case had access to my banking activity, as well as my google location history and/or gps data on my phone or my van, mobility data straight from the phone carrier showing where my phone was pinging that day, and hope they'd look at the surveillance cams from the stores I was in and made transactions in. To make sure they knew that's exactly where I was because all of those digital footprints would reconcile with each other.

If of course, I actually took my 6 kids Christmas shopping in Bakersfield, that day.
If not, all those records will tell a completely different story.
Modern tech is kind of awesome that way.
It doesn't have an agenda.

Just a little thinking outloud & entirely jmo

I wouldn't even take one shopping.
I don't have any so it's not a problem. It must be a nightmare.
But by the time one gets to Bakersfield, it takes either 1hr40min acc to link with map that @Dre put up last night.. or the original link to the cctv that @Pommy gave me last night mentioned a shorter distance, less than an hour as far as I recall? Did anybody else notice?
I don't recall duration of trip but I concluded there would have been no time for shopping and precious little enough for small talk with relatives...
Brings me back to the very weak ' AM was wrapping presents and send tiny kids out to play in the cold' bit..
Two days later? And it had to be done at that very instant while it was cold outside by their own admission..
It's always the little things that teach you about the level the other is operating, is it not?
I doubt investigators will have a very difficult time with factual acquisition here.
Probably all they do not know at this stage is their exact current location.

 

[SuziQ]

I was going to ask about this re:scent dogs. If items belonging to a person were moved to a new house, but the person was never in the house, would their scent still remain enough for a scent dog to pick up?

Yes. For a long time.

 

[PommyMommy]

I don't know if this is new or I just missed it yesterday but TW apparently searched some more after LE arrived.

JAN 28, 2021
New Security Cam footage on the days before West boys went missing (nbc16.com)
[...]

Trazell gets in his van and looks for the boys around the neighborhood more, while the officer looks Orrin and Orson with a flashlight in the backyard.

[...]

 

[kittythehare]

I don't know if this is new or I just missed it yesterday but TW apparently searched some more after LE arrived.

JAN 28, 2021
New Security Cam footage on the days before West boys went missing (nbc16.com)
[...]

Trazell gets in his van and looks for the boys around the neighborhood more, while the officer looks Orrin and Orson with a flashlight in the backyard.

[...]

That was in the video you gave me last night, showed him driving off in the exact same direction he had driven prior to their arrival when he was driving far too fast to properly look for small children

 

[PommyMommy]

JAN 28, 2021
2 toddlers still missing after disappearance from California home nearly 6 weeks ago - ABC News
[...]

Walker told ABC News on Tuesday that the police have received multiple tips from the public and that all of the information is currently being vetted by the police department to ensure it’s credible and worth pursuing.

“[CCPD] will continue to keep following up on the evidence that we do have, try to get more evidence, and continue to talk to more people and hope that someone out there sees them and comes forward,” said Walker.

[...]

... He said the family had to board up their home and temporarily leave town due to the threats they were receiving.

Walker remains optimistic the CCPD can find the boys alive.

[...]

 

[Seattle1]

The boys were reported missing by the Wests on the evening of Dec. 21, 2020.

According to Trezell West, Orrin and Orson were playing outside their home at 10717 Aspen Ave., where they had moved from Bakersfield in September. Jacqueline was inside wrapping Christmas presents, and Trezell said he was outside collecting firewood.

^^sbbm

This rambler is built on a large lot.

10717 Aspen Ave, Calif City, CA 93505 - 3 beds/2 baths

 

[MadTing]

Agree. I've also wondered about other video besides Dec 19th? We've only seen a small sampling of what must be available? Did LE kid count on other days after the Sept move in date and prior to the 19th?

LE will also sometimes release grainy footage that isn't very clear on purpose and the footage we have seen from thne neighbour was recorded via somebody filming his tv screen with a camera. LE no doubt have the original video file from the hardrive which will most likley be more clear than anything we have seen and as you say there very well me other video footage that's not been released.

 

[NCHydrangea]

I wouldn't even take one shopping.
I don't have any so it's not a problem. It must be a nightmare.
But by the time one gets to Bakersfield, it takes either 1hr40min acc to link with map that @Dre put up last night.. or the original link to the cctv that @Pommy gave me last night mentioned a shorter distance, less than an hour as far as I recall? Did anybody else notice?
I don't recall duration of trip but I concluded there would have been no time for shopping and precious little enough for small talk with relatives...
Brings me back to the very weak ' AM was wrapping presents and send tiny kids out to play in the cold' bit..
Two days later? And it had to be done at that very instant while it was cold outside by their own admission..
It's always the little things that teach you about the level the other is operating, is it not?
I doubt investigators will have a very difficult time with factual acquisition here.
Probably all they do not know at this stage is their exact current location.

Please forgive me, but I’m getting ready to go to work and don’t have time to refresh my memory.

IIRC between the travel time to Bakersfield and back home, they had about an hour and a half to 2 hours for shopping and dropping the other 4 kids off at Grandma’s for vacation. I’ve never had 1 child, much less 4-6, but it doesn’t seem to be enough time to do anything but maybe AM running into a store to pick up a few things while the boys waited in the van.

It’s hard to see because if the grainy video, but did anyone see a suitcase or any kind of bag going into the van? I’d think 4 boys would have a fair bit of luggage if they were going on vacation for a few days. Clothes, favorite toys, etc.

MOO

 

[kittythehare]

Please forgive me, but I’m getting ready to go to work and don’t have time to refresh my memory.

IIRC between the travel time to Bakersfield and back home, they had about an hour and a half to 2 hours for shopping and dropping the other 4 kids off at Grandma’s for vacation. I’ve never had 1 child, much less 4-6, but it doesn’t seem to be enough time to do anything but maybe AM running into a store to pick up a few things while the boys waited in the van.

It’s hard to see because if the grainy video, but did anyone see a suitcase or any kind of bag going into the van? I’d think 4 boys would have a fair bit of luggage if they were going on vacation for a few days. Clothes, favorite toys, etc.

MOO

The specific interval for their entire journey was discussed in the long CCTV link precisely.
I don't recall it though I watched the entire excruciating thing cos looking for a dog or dogs..
Nobody mentioned luggage but that could have been loaded prior to the children.

 

[Raynebowtaster]

LE will also sometimes release grainy footage that isn't very clear on purpose and the footage we have seen from thne neighbour was recorded via somebody filming his tv screen with a camera. LE no doubt have the original video file from the hardrive which will most likley be more clear than anything we have seen and as you say there very well me other video footage that's not been released.

LE will also sometimes release grainy footage that isn't very clear on purpose and the footage we have seen from thne neighbour was recorded via somebody filming his tv screen with a camera. LE no doubt have the original video file from the hardrive which will most likley be more clear than anything we have seen and as you say there very well me other video footage that's not been released.

Iirc the video for gannon LE stated he was never seen on vid getting out of the vehicle but he must have.... Could be similar circumstances maybe?

 

[Rachelj1]

I will never forget in Savannah Spurlock the police constantly said we can confirm her being at David’s , we can’t confirm how she left. It’s because the neighbor had a camera . She never came out of his home alive .

that’s what they meant .

 

[GeorgiaRai]

Iirc the video for gannon LE stated he was never seen on vid getting out of the vehicle but he must have.... Could be similar circumstances maybe?

This. So much. The neighbor's video "proof" in that case was misinterpreted. It was repeatedly stated & accepted as fact (by the public, at least; I don't recall if LE did so) that the step-mother "came home alone", which wasn't the case at all. So who went on and/or returned from the Wests' van ride is a wide open question for me.

In my speculations, I feel what happened with O&O could be similar to GS's case. Errands and/or a road trip with 6 kids, 4 dropped off, 2 return home on the 19th. An incident occurs, and the perpetrator takes some time (a day, maybe two) to clean up, create a story, remove victims in a way that doesn't look suspicious or draw attention, then calls 911. JMO.

 

[MoeInVA]

Throughout this case, I thought there were no photos for a year because the boys have been missing for a long time.

Now I am almost hoping that’s the case, because IF the boys were actually not missing until say the 19th or 21st, the reasons for why the boys would not be photographed for a year seem really, really, really bad.

Did the boys endure a year of absolute hell?

 

[Rachelj1]

Throughout this case, I thought there were no photos for a year because the boys have been missing for a long time.

Now I am almost hoping that’s the case, because IF the boys were actually not missing until say the 19th or 21st, the reasons for why the boys would not be photographed for a year seem really, really, really bad.

Did the boys endure a year of absolute hell?

I believe they did . Right after the adoption was final.
Moo

 

[MoeInVA]

The parents say they took 6 boys Christmas shopping.
6 boys between the ages of 10 and 3.
Two of which have been described as "rambunctious".
On a Saturday afternoon.
The last Saturday before Christmas.
Statistically one of the busiest shopping days of the year.

As of a mother of 8, who has had to take kids shopping, I'm not buying that one for a moment.
But, if it were me, I'd make sure the lead LE on the case had access to my banking activity, as well as my google location history and/or gps data on my phone or my van, mobility data straight from the phone carrier showing where my phone was pinging that day, and hope they'd look at the surveillance cams from the stores I was in and made transactions in. To make sure they knew that's exactly where I was because all of those digital footprints would reconcile with each other.

If of course, I actually took my 6 kids Christmas shopping in Bakersfield, that day.
If not, all those records will tell a completely different story.
Modern tech is kind of awesome that way.
It doesn't have an agenda.

Just a little thinking outloud & entirely jmo

Ditto! Thank God for cameras and technology! And thank you to the FBI for getting involved in these cases early to help analyze all that data.