Deceased/Not Found Canada - Alvin, 66, & Kathy Liknes, 53, Nathan O'Brien, 5, Calgary, 30 Jun 2014 - #24

[otto]

This is from the previous thread and had to manually create the reply.

Thanks Female for doing that. I was hoping someone had read the books he bought.

I would be curious if you find other things that closely match what he read in the books. It is almost like he was using things in the books and trying to do what they told him to do.

I hope LE also read the books to help find evidence in the house and find other evidence. I agree that even the jury it would be helpful if they had a reading assignment for these books. It may help them tie things together.

We appreciate you doing this because those books are disturbing but they do help in this case to help know what he was trying to do. The books he bought and read seem to be a very important part of this case. Since he took some actions directly related to the books it seems.

I don't think I've ever heard of a jury being asked to read the preferred literature of a murder suspect. Although the books may provide insight into why the suspect purchased specific tools (i.e.: mentioned in the book), I'm not convinced that this information adds to an understanding of whether Garland committed the murders. Additionally, given that the Judge is already anticipating that some of the jury may require post-verdict counselling, couldn't the requirement of a jury to read a murderer's murder books cause further psychological trauma?

 

[Tealgrove]

Wow gunner, good thinking here.
:goodpost:

I had the same thought. I wondered about Asperbergers.

 

[Tealgrove]

I don't think I've ever heard of a jury being asked to read the preferred literature of a murder suspect. Although the books may provide insight into why the suspect purchased specific tools (i.e.: mentioned in the book), I'm not convinced that this information adds to an understanding of whether Garland committed the murders. Additionally, given that the Judge is already anticipating that some of the jury may require post-verdict counselling, couldn't the requirement of a jury to read a murderer's murder books cause further psychological trauma?

Juries are NOT permitted to do their own research or play detective. They can only weigh the evidence put before them. I suspect that if they took it upon themselves to download the books and read them it might be a big NO NO!

 

[Hatfield]

I don't think I've ever heard of a jury being asked to read the preferred literature of a murder suspect. Although the books may provide insight into why the suspect purchased specific tools (i.e.: mentioned in the book), I'm not convinced that this information adds to an understanding of whether Garland committed the murders. Additionally, given that the Judge is already anticipating that some of the jury may require post-verdict counselling, couldn't the requirement of a jury to read a murderer's murder books cause further psychological trauma?

Yeah, it is probably illegal for lawyers to direct a jury to read anything.

It makes me wonder what a judge would say if during deliberations the jury asked to have copies of the books. We probably need a laywer to help answer that.

If the books are brought into evidence since I think some of them were on the hard drive then I have to wonder whether the jury could read it on their own if they wanted to. It would probably have to be their choice and I am pretty sure it would have to be submitted as evidence first.

There is probably some legal case that explains the rules about books and evidence. A lawyer could probably tell us the rules about it.

 

[otto]

Anyone else notice how narrow his feet seem in the video?? He clearly did not need WIDE shoes.

The oversized everything suggests to me some kind of aversion to anything uncomfortable or restrictive (this is a common symptom in those on the autism spectrum or with sensory disorders). Autistic folks can also have difficulty with social interactions (eye contact), are often highly methodical, need to follow order and instructions exactly (book instructions on murder perhaps), and can become obsessed with things. (I'm speaking here from my own personal past experience working with autistic kids.)

Could oversized clothing and shoes suggest that his mental perception of himself is larger than his actual size? It must have taken some practice to walk around (not trip) in shoes that are two sizes too big.

 

[Hatfield]

Juries are NOT permitted to do their own research or play detective. They can only weigh the evidence put before them. I suspect that if they took it upon themselves to download the books and read them it might be a big NO NO!

If the books are submitted as evidence if they were on the hard drive then could a jury read it during jury deliberations if they all agreed they wanted to read it?

 

[Kamille]

On the shoes...

Here is the first item I find when I google 'Dr Scholl's Delta shoes Walmart'. I see there are a few types, but as someone else pointed out, it's a great chance these are the 'Delta 2' that matches the empty box and that the witness mentioned having difficulty finding because they are discontinued (can't remember now if that last part was in testimony or our conclusion). Notice there are only a few available online of this model.

It does have a dark stripe up the middle of the tongue, which I think looks similar in the CCTV. It's so hard to be sure with the grainy pics!

It's worth noting that when I search, my 'local store' would be the closest Walmart to DG's home at that time so maybe that affects results?

http://www.walmart.ca/en/ip/dr-scholls-mens-delta-athletic-shoes-10/6000195979989


All this is to say: I believe he wore the same Delta 2 shoes for quite some time, committed the crime in them, then burned them before arrest.

MOO

I noticed that last night too and posted the two different links for the two different Delta shoes.

I agree with your conclusion and wonder why the Crown didn't show the shoes that they bought to compare to the video unless the ones they bought were also a newer/alternate design without the toe stripe.

I guess the confusion here about the shoes is one good reason why it wasn't worth presenting in court unless they had an exact match.

MOO

 

[olivebpa1]

Yeah, it is probably illegal for lawyers to direct a jury to read anything.

It makes me wonder what a judge would say if during deliberations the jury asked to have copies of the books. We probably need a laywer to help answer that.

If the books are brought into evidence since I think some of them were on the hard drive then I have to wonder whether the jury could read it on their own if they wanted to. It would probably have to be their choice and I am pretty sure it would have to be submitted as evidence first.

There is probably some legal case that explains the rules about books and evidence. A lawyer could probably tell us the rules about it.

If there was something specific in one of the books that the crown wanted the jury to know about they would have to submit it as evidence. During the cross-examination DG's lawyer did have the witness read one part of that book on poison.

 

[Female]

Juries are NOT permitted to do their own research or play detective. They can only weigh the evidence put before them. I suspect that if they took it upon themselves to download the books and read them it might be a big NO NO!

Crown put up on display multiple pages from the books and asked the jury to read them. So I guess I'm surprised too after reading them over the choice of pages displayed. There would have been better pages to display but they obviously have their reasoning. Defense also tried to say the 1 book was about how to treat poisoning, which it was ish, but the other book on poisons was very much so about the best ones to disable/cause death and how they can be tracked during autopsy.

I get that they can't do their own research, and I get why it would traumatize certain people further, I just personally found it very insightful. Prior to that I couldn't really figure out why he purchased such a wide variety of tools or why he'd Google certain things. After reading it's all things described in the books. It shows further planning and murderous intent and makes all those purchased items far less innocent.

 

[artemis17]

I am convinced this guy as sick as he is and as confident as he has said "not guilty" that he only has done so as a means to further this families suffering. I would not be surprised if he testifies to give gruesome details to further that. The way he pays attention and takes notes and how the defense is pretty much non existent.

 

[otto]

Yeah, it is probably illegal for lawyers to direct a jury to read anything.

It makes me wonder what a judge would say if during deliberations the jury asked to have copies of the books. We probably need a laywer to help answer that.

If the books are brought into evidence since I think some of them were on the hard drive then I have to wonder whether the jury could read it on their own if they wanted to. It would probably have to be their choice and I am pretty sure it would have to be submitted as evidence first.

There is probably some legal case that explains the rules about books and evidence. A lawyer could probably tell us the rules about it.

The jury can only consider facts in evidence, but you raise an interesting point. If the books are entered as evidence, are the contents of the books also entered into evidence, or only the title of the book? If the contents of the book are entered into evidence by virtue of being mentioned, does that give the jury permission to consider the contents (read the books) during deliberations? Maybe they can only consider the pages that are specifically referenced during trial?

 

[olivebpa1]

I noticed that last night too and posted the two different links for the two different Delta shoes.

I agree with your conclusion and wonder why the Crown didn't show the shoes that they bought to compare to the video unless the ones they bought were also a newer/alternate design without the toe stripe.

I guess the confusion here about the shoes is one good reason why it wasn't worth presenting in court unless they had an exact match.

MOO

I'm sure the crown did compare the shoes they bought to the video. Were they allowed to present that as evidence though? It seems no. The way Sgt. Gallen said "i don't know how to answer that because i've seen the video" makes me think something about a video was argued out.

 

[olivebpa1]

Crown put up on display multiple pages from the books and asked the jury to read them. So I guess I'm surprised too after reading them over the choice of pages displayed. There would have been better pages to display but they obviously have their reasoning. Defense also tried to say the 1 book was about how to treat poisoning, which it was ish, but the other book on poisons was very much so about the best ones to disable/cause death and how they can be tracked during autopsy.

I get that they can't do their own research, and I get why it would traumatize certain people further, I just personally found it very insightful. Prior to that I couldn't really figure out why he purchased such a wide variety of tools or why he'd Google certain things. After reading it's all things described in the books. It shows further planning and murderous intent and makes all those purchased items far less innocent.

Thanks for that insight! No tweets told us that. My guess is that the crown was limited to what pages they could put up for the jury to read. DG's lawyer would have argued out some of the most incriminating pages.

 

[Kamille]

There is a very good chance he wore the delta 2's for a long time. The police were not able to find video evidence of him buying them from walmart so he probably bought them long before the crime. Anyone know how long stores keep video? A few months at least based on the princess auto video.

Walmart would likely have video for a very long time. It's not likely a matter of them not having the video but more a matter of the investigators having to sort through and find the purchase based on his bank statements. He may have paid cash for the shoes, in which case it would be very difficult to find. Not sure how much of an effort they put in considering they did have the actual box showing that the shoes were in that house at some time.

MOO

 

[JadeSLeuth]

Could oversized clothing and shoes suggest that his mental perception of himself is larger than his actual size? It must have taken some practice to walk around (not trip) in shoes that are two sizes too big.

Wow Otto - great thought.

 

[Power of Two]

Wow Otto - great thought.

Conversely, could DG be wearing larger clothing in order to appear less visible? It is not easily explained, but sometimes people swaddle themselves in larger clothing, scarves, hats, etc. in order to 'disappear'. It has to do with perception of one's personal body image. Or I could be out in left field!

 

[Slebby]

I am convinced this guy as sick as he is and as confident as he has said "not guilty" that he only has done so as a means to further this families suffering. I would not be surprised if he testifies to give gruesome details to further that. The way he pays attention and takes notes and how the defense is pretty much non existent.

I would be very surprised if he testified. MOO


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[otto]

Conversely, could DG be wearing larger clothing in order to appear less visible? It is not easily explained, but sometimes people swaddle themselves in larger clothing, scarves, hats, etc. in order to 'disappear'. It has to do with perception of one's personal body image. Or I could be out in left field!

He seems to have a very high opinion of himself, which would suggest to me that he views himself as a pretty big deal - someone to be reckoned with. At the same time, he seems like a classic victim of bullying, likely due not only to his pathetic personality, but also his small stature. Think of the 1980s when women wore power suits that included shoulder pads. The jacket was meant to make them look bigger, and in some ways, manly. Bigger, oversized clothing seem more about appearing bigger, more powerful and foreboding.

 

[olivebpa1]

I would be very surprised if he testified. MOO


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I'll be shocked if he testifies as well. This guy is a total coward so I can't see him taking the stand. He had a beef with Alvin for years and as far as we know just sat in his basement and let it fester instead of confronting Alvin about it.

 

[CentralAlberta]

I am convinced this guy as sick as he is and as confident as he has said "not guilty" that he only has done so as a means to further this families suffering. I would not be surprised if he testifies to give gruesome details to further that. The way he pays attention and takes notes and how the defense is pretty much non existent.

I agree totally that he is taking notes for his testimony. Where I disagree with you is his reasoning. I believe he thinks it was very justified in what he did and he is going to testify to convince everyone of that. I keep going back to his winning his EI case where he had to admit he was using a stolen identity for all those years and was still able to get what was owing to him (in his mind). I just can't wrap my head around the sense of entitlement he must have and the fact our justice system accepted it.