Yes. The bigger picture point was that it would be much less effort, and less risky than driving around with a body looking for a wall to run into.
Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #2
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Yes. The bigger picture point was that it would be much less effort, and less risky than driving around with a body looking for a wall to run into.
To me, hauling your wife that weighs 180 pounds around and staging a suicide is a lot of work and it makes him into a murderer. Probably not a legacy he would want. A car accident would cover the crime.
Lilibet
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A young man I know didnt survive this kind of crash a couple of months ago. Its a horrible way to kill yourself.
That's assuming the hanging was staging a suicide, and that he cared about a legacy. What if he didn't care either way? He was apparently reluctant to even have things named after him. Legacy, didn't seem to be a motivating factor for him.
It may have simply been the most practical solution. If there were no guns in the house and he was at all squeamish, then what other options are there?
To stage the car accident, you'd still have to haul around that 180 pound body. It is probably safe to assume she had to be incapacitated in order to be hanged. Chances are this wasn't planned, but a progression of events.
Were it planned, then yes, maybe spend the time to find that perfect abutment, get her in the car and then make an excuse to go there and hope she doesn't grab the steering wheel or one of a hundred different variables that can interrupt the act.
But if there was a fight that included a point of no return, then hauling her into a vehicle to find a way to stage a car accident seems like a massive risk.
A young man I know didn’t survive this kind of crash a couple of months ago. It’s a horrible way to kill yourself.
Not to mention the risk of failure. At very high speeds, even a slight bump, a slight turn of the steering wheel, a punctured tire, or any number of factors can turn that car, and impact at an angle you may actually survive.
This case came to mind.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-silence-crash-killed-mother-son-unborn.html
cluciano63
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I can't imagine murderers going to all this trouble. What is the point? Especially as it seems unlikely anyone will ever know what happened. Supposing a "hit man" is told to make it look like a murder/suicide...this is what he comes up with? It is ludicrous. But we will never know, in any event, IMO.
MerBeach
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Just as an observer of being married to a man for 20 years who I've only recently come to understand is most likely on the autism spectrum due to our dear son who is 11 years old and severely autistic, I just have to put my two cents in, even if it's completely unrelated. My husband is extremely intelligent, (but hopelessly inept socially, in my opinion). Day to day "stuff" eludes him. He could care less about mess, etc. although there is a fastidiousness about him in which he usually looks great in dress, hair, etc. there is a disconnect. He desires human interaction, and usually people love him but on a personal level he comes across as silent, uninterested, even cold. Unfortunately in the last year I have learned about a dark side. I don't want to go into detail but just want to be heard and understood that even the most gentle, quiet, exhausted, people can be capable of extreme narcissistic rage.
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There are many possible motives, which is why so many believe it was murder. It's a legitimate theory given the numerous enemies he had, and the possible money involved.
As for the trouble someone would go through, look at Douglas Garland, who executed a plan to kidnap and dispose of a retiring couple. It does happen.
I suspect we will find out what happened. I keep going back to the initial reports of the murder-suicide, and the reaction of LE only AFTER the family complained. They sat on some sort of glaring evidence for 2 days before seemingly begrudgingly letting homicide take over.
2 days. It wasn't a missing persons case.
I'm pretty new around here so apologies if my questions have already been addressed. I have a couple of problems with murder/suicide:
- was there security or cameras in the basement - and were they switched off? I had a feeling earlier in the postings it was said or implied that cameras were switched off. If switched off I cant see how that fits with murder/suicide. If you kill someone in a fit of anger there's no chance before and no point afterwards switching it off. So if Barry switched it off before that denotes pre-meditation which I think unlikely IMO. So if it was switched off it suggests external double murder/a hit.
- the belts. If Barry murdered Honey in the garage or basement area in a fit of anger why then go all the way upstairs to his closet to get the belts? Its a long trek, he then has to drag the body to the pool area and then stage both their deaths. Wouldn't there be a more convenient way to kill himself and stage her? Not sure what, but the belts are not a very obvious solution - quite lateral thinking. And I'd presume if you murder someone in a fit of anger you'd be in a bit of a panic and worrying about someone discovering you.
Just asking. I know there is very little confirmed factual material in this case - just COD so the rest might just be hearsay/speculation.
- was there security or cameras in the basement - and were they switched off? I had a feeling earlier in the postings it was said or implied that cameras were switched off. If switched off I cant see how that fits with murder/suicide. If you kill someone in a fit of anger there's no chance before and no point afterwards switching it off. So if Barry switched it off before that denotes pre-meditation which I think unlikely IMO. So if it was switched off it suggests external double murder/a hit.
- the belts. If Barry murdered Honey in the garage or basement area in a fit of anger why then go all the way upstairs to his closet to get the belts? Its a long trek, he then has to drag the body to the pool area and then stage both their deaths. Wouldn't there be a more convenient way to kill himself and stage her? Not sure what, but the belts are not a very obvious solution - quite lateral thinking. And I'd presume if you murder someone in a fit of anger you'd be in a bit of a panic and worrying about someone discovering you.
Just asking. I know there is very little confirmed factual material in this case - just COD so the rest might just be hearsay/speculation.
Carioca
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Thanks, Sanz, for reposting. This is IMO the best interview to date. BTW I am not on the wall in this case. IMHO Double Murder, up close and personal, follow the money. I have several friends in Toronto and they agree. Absolutely NO one believes the suicide story...
Wondergirl
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Thanks.
This seems to imply a different COD than neck compression.
I guess that's where all the staging speculation comes from.
Doesn't quite line up to me.
There is likely another crime scene location within the home though.
What happened to The Sherman's?
Brad Garrett has no inside information. His opinion is just as speculative as ours, but coloured with self-promotion.
It actually becomes quite obvious if the few clues that you have mentioned turn out to be true. Either Barry strangled Honey or found her hanged (suicide). He then disabled the cameras and moved her body to the pool area where he hung her (either to mask her neck injuries or mimic ones that were already there), then he hung himself. Judging by the apparent different stages of rigor mortis, it appears that there was a significant amount of time between the two events. There was no note from Honey explaining her decision. To me it looks like an act of rage followed by an attempt to mask the crime. However, if in fact Honey was manually strangled, there would likely be at least some defence wounds on Barry.
Inthedetails
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Perhaps the belts are the clue.
Honey is reported to have been killed elsewhere in the house. Maybe she was killed in the bedroom. The belts were handy. Barry (if he is the killer) had time to figure out a plan after Honey died, and he could've come up with the idea of staging what looked like a double-suicide - and he brought the body and the belts to the pool.
I put emphasis on Barry's practical, pragmatic personality. In this scenario, he knew he was guilty of murder and his life was essentially over dead or alive...and he prefered the dead option.
Speculation only. I'm still on the fence, though leaning to the side of murder-suicide.
jmo
What are your options though, other than a belt? Your shirt or pants? Can you tie a good slip knot with those? And who's to say they weren't each wearing a belt at the time?
Slightly OT, Carioca, but how much does this remind you of Rebecca Zahau's death? The interview with Brad Garret was very good at potentially explaining both cases.
matou
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I'm not sure why the opinion of an ex-FBI investigator is holding so much weight in this case since he was not there on the scene and is not part of this investigation at all. The Toronto officers on scene at the Sherman house were so calm when approached by reporters and I believe it when the officer says there is no danger to the public. These investigators have likely seen many, many variations of suicide similar to what was discovered at the Sherman house.
Jealoushe
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and now taking a few weeks to go over forensics in the house...not something that generally happens with a suicide.
I personally think the cops are being advised to do what they can and then close the case. This is probably a hit by someone far out of their ability to chase down and deal with, and they know it. Of course this is just my personal opinion.
thesensitivechild
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tarabull
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re: “ligature neck compression"
Do you really need a slip knot???? Maybe for the presentation....
With a belt wouldn't you just use the buckle??? Not a fastened buckle but using the loop of the actual buckle.....
And if the buckle was used (sinched closed and buckled) --- what about a Spanish Windlass -- where a stick or other object is placed under the ligature and twisted to constrict the ligature?
Read here under Ligature Strangulation
Is a Ligature Strangulation the same as a Ligature Compression???
:thinking:
ETA: I've seen a person get choked out at the hands of someone else with their own clothing...fwiw. (MMA)
Do you really need a slip knot???? Maybe for the presentation....
With a belt wouldn't you just use the buckle??? Not a fastened buckle but using the loop of the actual buckle.....
And if the buckle was used (sinched closed and buckled) --- what about a Spanish Windlass -- where a stick or other object is placed under the ligature and twisted to constrict the ligature?
Read here under Ligature Strangulation
Is a Ligature Strangulation the same as a Ligature Compression???
:thinking:
ETA: I've seen a person get choked out at the hands of someone else with their own clothing...fwiw. (MMA)
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