CANADA Canada - Billionaire Couple Barry & Honey Sherman Murdered at Home, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #23

[Cedars]

@Cedars are you suggesting that you think the visitor on the Thursday morning was (a) the realtor, Elyse Stern, or (b) one of the staff who attended on Friday morning?

No, what I meant was, if I'd gone to a home and found no one there when I was expecting someone to be, and then a day or two later heard the person had been found there dead, I would immediately contact police to tell them my experience. Because I would think - maybe they were already dead! - and it might help police determine when they died.

JMO

 

[FPoulet]

No, what I meant was, if I'd gone to a home and found no one there when I was expecting someone to be, and then a day or two later heard the person had been found there dead, I would immediately contact police to tell them my experience. Because I would think - maybe they were already dead! - and it might help police determine when they died.

JMO

A very unsettling thing to contemplate. Even worse: being in the house with the bodies, unbeknownst.

Am I remembering right that the housekeeper said she had a bad feeling that morning? No wonder, as there were many events out of the usual that morning: the security system was off; Barry and Honey weren’t there (but their cars were there, presumably Honey’s purse was there, and we know Honey’s phone was on the floor of the powder room); the bed wasn’t slept in; Honey’s worn clothes weren’t in the usual spot; the newspapers weren’t brought in; there would have been no sign of breakfast……

I’m sure it was obvious something weird had happened. Either a sudden trip to the ER or something else that took them away from the house suddenly for the night. The phone on the floor in particular must have seemed odd or even troubling. I wonder if the housekeeper was worried. Might she have messaged them? Or was she so discreet that she would just carry on, silent and ignoring her intuition? Speculating/MOO.

 

[ldlager]

I wasn't referring to 'systematic' in terms of following up every possible lead, IMO that's 'comprehensive' not 'systematic'.

Systematic means "according to a fixed plan or system; methodical.".

IMO, it's like running a science experiment. You don't test everything that might possibly be relevant. You carefully define your parameters so that you are testing something that will yield verifiable proof. Yes, or no. You eliminate all randomness, in order to create certainty.

Presumably, they had access to better footage than the neighbour across the road. If someone at the synagog had really seen something, they'd report it to police. Why would you waste precious manpower tracking them all down and asking each one "did you see anything,?" They probably knew, from being systematic, that WM kept away from the synagog.

JMO

let’s assume then that LE had a systematic plan to gather video and witness evidence. Yet video from across the street was ignored.How can LE determine it wasn’t valuable without even obtaining it and looking at it. Potential witnesses in close proximity to the Sherman house on the night of the murders were not even interviewed. Perhaps the NW walked right past some of them, but LE didn’t even alert anyone to the NW until about 4 years after the murder. I think LE needs a new system

 

[Clark2002]

I’ve thought that as well and their personal trainer mentioned something similar. She said the basement closets were so big and full of stuff that someone could easily hide there. There was also a nanny’s suite down there complete with a kitchen. So possibly it was used as extra space for food storage.

If KD’s sources are correct about the WM’s timeline he arrived at the home about 20 minutes after Honey arrived and maybe ten minutes before Barry did. It’s such a tight schedule. If another person was in the home it might make more sense.

Do we know for sure that the police have footage of the wm arriving that night or is there only footage of him walking away from the house? The nanny suite crossed my mind as well and I remember reading that Honey never went down there and presumably Barry would park his car in the garage and head directly upstairs. The house was listed for sale on November 27th, realistically there probably wasn’t hundreds of people touring it in such a short time frame. I really think that someone could have been in the basement without being noticed.
I don’t know how far back the police looked for when they asked neighbours for video footage. The neighbour across the street was upset that the police hadn’t retrieved her footage right away and she was worried that it would be overwritten before they took it. Maybe there is no footage of anyone entering the home because it was already overwritten.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Do we know for sure that the police have footage of the wm arriving that night or is there only footage of him walking away from the house? The nanny suite crossed my mind as well and I remember reading that Honey never went down there and presumably Barry would park his car in the garage and head directly upstairs. The house was listed for sale on November 27th, realistically there probably wasn’t hundreds of people touring it in such a short time frame. I really think that someone could have been in the basement without being noticed.
I don’t know how far back the police looked for when they asked neighbours for video footage. The neighbour across the street was upset that the police hadn’t retrieved her footage right away and she was worried that it would be overwritten before they took it. Maybe there is no footage of anyone entering the home because it was already overwritten.

Yes, they have footage of him walking to the home and going to an area ‘tight’ to the Sherman home. He stays there for a suspicious amount of time (KD believes it was over an hour) and then he walks out the same way.

 

[newclues]

Yes, this is something that puzzles me. The sheer amount of money in the circle that surrounds this crime makes me think that it would not have been so hard to hide a hired killer's fee in some kind of shell transaction. On the other hand, it would be harder to hide the money given that IMO I do not think the murders were planned a long time in advance. I think it was just a few weeks.

Another theory I had is that the Shermans held a large amount of cash at their house. I'm sure both were conscious of the dangers of anti-Semitism and Honey had direct experience of persecution and wartime flight, so that might make a person inclined to store cash. Plus, Honey's family, like many new immigrants of any ethnicity, may have believed in keeping cash on hand. If we believe the murder to be an inside job the person who commissioned the murder may have told the perpetrator how to access this cash.

Although the Shermans weren't particularly concerned about security a wall safe seems like a possibility, based on the report of the urban explorer about holes punched in the wall.

Wasn't there around 7 thousand dollars that HS withdrew from the bank that day that was not stolen?

 

[newclues]

Hi, what do you think the purpose was?

I think one possible purpose was to hide the bodies longer by keeping them in the least-used room.

I think another possible purpose was some kind of message or story or closure. What that would be, I don’t know. Some sort of sense of ceremony for the killer(s)? Maybe even amusement for the killer(s)? A wry inside “joke”? A punishment? Putting them on “display” to humiliate or shame them? Tying their death forever to the ugly pool they never used? Showing some sort of dignity vs leaving them in a heap? — who knows.

The staging was not a small amount of work. This suggests it was important to the killer(s). I believe it had meaning to the killers(s). Even if tongue in cheek. This suggests to me at some level the killer(s) cared about the Shermans. And/or had some contrition about leaving them unceremoniously dead on the floor. MOO.

It appears that the pool room was a room that they liked to showoff to people visiting but that they did not use. Seem to recall that JK mentioned it in his eulogy speech and FM mentioned it in his police affidavit. Also, it appears that the killer may have liked BS more than HS by how they were treated. This can also mean it could be someone that BS liked but HS did not like.

 

[RHR]

I wasn't referring to 'systematic' in terms of following up every possible lead, IMO that's 'comprehensive' not 'systematic'.

Systematic means "according to a fixed plan or system; methodical.".

IMO, it's like running a science experiment. You don't test everything that might possibly be relevant. You carefully define your parameters so that you are testing something that will yield verifiable proof. Yes, or no. You eliminate all randomness, in order to create certainty.

Presumably, they had access to better footage than the neighbour across the road. If someone at the synagog had really seen something, they'd report it to police. Why would you waste precious manpower tracking them all down and asking each one "did you see anything,?" They probably knew, from being systematic, that WM kept away from the synagog.

JMO

I don’t think the police ever said that he was on the property of 50 OCR.
They said tight to the property.
When asked a number of times during the press conference they said tight too.
I have always believed that to be the WM
going through the house behind on Forest Heights.

 

[hexicon]

Police have said it wasn’t a robbery AFAIK

Wasn't there around 7 thousand dollars that HS withdrew from the bank that day that was not stolen?

Here is my hypothetical, which addresses both of these questions and how a payment (partial?) for the contract killer might have remained undetected. It is 100% speculation on my part and is extrapolated from the way I have dealt with my own emergency cash.

1. The Shermans decided to keep a large stash of emergency cash at their residence. They do so for reasons related both to refugee trauma and ordinary prudence.
2. The sum is large, at least a million dollars. This is because (a) the Shermans are extremely wealthy; (b) they may face risks that are unique to being extremely wealthy, such as kidnapping/ransom; and (c) for various tax reasons they may have an incentive to keep at least some money in cash.
4. This is purely a reserve and it remains untouched in the safe or other "safe" place. They don't use this reserve for pocket cash or even for larger cash spending (such as the money Honey withdrew presumably for holiday tips for her various service employees).
5. The Shermans tell Close Person (CP) about this reserve. They say (hypothetically), "In case something happens to us, there is a wall safe in the study behind the painting of the dog. The combination is your birthday reversed. There is a million dollars in cash plus our birth certificates, passports, and some jewelry." 6. The Shermans are not worried about CP knowing about the stash in the safe because CP has plenty of money of their own and will eventually share in their estate anyway.
7. CP hires an assassin to murder the Shermans. CP tells the murderer how to access the cash, which will constitute the fee, or a portion of it. The murderer does not steal anything else, such as cash or jewelry from the Shermans' persons.
8. When contacted by LE, CP says "Why yes, there was a wall safe in the study, but they didn't keep anything there except for their papers and some old jewelry, and as you can see all that is still there. So there certainly wasn't anything stolen from the house."

100 percent my speculation.

Facts that might support this: the urban explorer saw holes punched in the wall, leading to the theory that at one point there was a wall safe. The Shermans constantly had various service providers in and out of the house, and reasonable prudence suggests you'd want a safe place for even ordinary valuables.

Facts that might contradict this: For all their wealth, the Shermans didn't seem particularly security-conscious. Would they have had a safe? Would they have stored a large amount of cash?

 

[FromGermany1]

Here is my hypothetical, which addresses both of these questions and how a payment (partial?) for the contract killer might have remained undetected. It is 100% speculation on my part and is extrapolated from the way I have dealt with my own emergency cash.

1. The Shermans decided to keep a large stash of emergency cash at their residence. They do so for reasons related both to refugee trauma and ordinary prudence.
2. The sum is large, at least a million dollars. This is because (a) the Shermans are extremely wealthy; (b) they may face risks that are unique to being extremely wealthy, such as kidnapping/ransom; and (c) for various tax reasons they may have an incentive to keep at least some money in cash.
4. This is purely a reserve and it remains untouched in the safe or other "safe" place. They don't use this reserve for pocket cash or even for larger cash spending (such as the money Honey withdrew presumably for holiday tips for her various service employees).
5. The Shermans tell Close Person (CP) about this reserve. They say (hypothetically), "In case something happens to us, there is a wall safe in the study behind the painting of the dog. The combination is your birthday reversed. There is a million dollars in cash plus our birth certificates, passports, and some jewelry." 6. The Shermans are not worried about CP knowing about the stash in the safe because CP has plenty of money of their own and will eventually share in their estate anyway.
7. CP hires an assassin to murder the Shermans. CP tells the murderer how to access the cash, which will constitute the fee, or a portion of it. The murderer does not steal anything else, such as cash or jewelry from the Shermans' persons.
8. When contacted by LE, CP says "Why yes, there was a wall safe in the study, but they didn't keep anything there except for their papers and some old jewelry, and as you can see all that is still there. So there certainly wasn't anything stolen from the house."

100 percent my speculation.

Facts that might support this: the urban explorer saw holes punched in the wall, leading to the theory that at one point there was a wall safe. The Shermans constantly had various service providers in and out of the house, and reasonable prudence suggests you'd want a safe place for even ordinary valuables.

Facts that might contradict this: For all their wealth, the Shermans didn't seem particularly security-conscious. Would they have had a safe? Would they have stored a large amount of cash?

At least it's interesting.

 

[Cedars]

I don’t think the police ever said that he was on the property of 50 OCR.
They said tight to the property.
When asked a number of times during the press conference they said tight too.
I have always believed that to be the WM
going through the house behind on Forest Heights.

Could be. However, properly installed video surveillance on that neighbour's property would show that, if WM entered that way, he never approached the neighbours house etc. So they could still argue in court that it is a reasonable conclusion that WM entered the Sherman home, and was the killer.

They probably would need to bring in other evidence, such as a clearly accessible route across the two properties, which is out of sight of cameras (or, pethaps WM was captured on camera crossing onto 50 OCR, LE are just not going to reveal that).

The point about a blind spot is that, although the perp can't be seen in it, if he was captured going in on one side, and not captured coming out, and there was nowhere else for them to go, that must be the way they went.

JMO

 

[Lexiintoronto]

A case conference is scheduled for March 13th for the Shechtman v. 2016 Trust lawsuit.

Link (account needed to view page): My Ontario Account

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

Do we know for sure that the police have footage of the wm arriving that night or is there only footage of him walking away from the house? The nanny suite crossed my mind as well and I remember reading that Honey never went down there and presumably Barry would park his car in the garage and head directly upstairs. The house was listed for sale on November 27th, realistically there probably wasn’t hundreds of people touring it in such a short time frame. I really think that someone could have been in the basement without being noticed.
I don’t know how far back the police looked for when they asked neighbours for video footage. The neighbour across the street was upset that the police hadn’t retrieved her footage right away and she was worried that it would be overwritten before they took it. Maybe there is no footage of anyone entering the home because it was already overwritten.

The report of the neighbour and this video does not make logical sense to me. If the neighbour was concerned they could have easily taken a copy of it and saved the video themselves. To act as if they have no control of the video writing over itself is weak for me. That is how you give it to the police, on a thumb drive. We had a murder happen across the street, police put a card in our door the day after asking to call a special detective who handles video evidence as they saw our camera outside. We called and they gave date and times for us to copy and give them. The thumb was picked up a few days after we copied the video.

also to note our system is a home system not a paid monitoring system/plan and we can look back years of video, so not all camera systems are written over.

adding that my husband was looking at the video before we were asked, we were curious if anything was on it - the getaway car was on our video.

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

Do we know for sure that the police have footage of the wm arriving that night or is there only footage of him walking away from the house? The nanny suite crossed my mind as well and I remember reading that Honey never went down there and presumably Barry would park his car in the garage and head directly upstairs. The house was listed for sale on November 27th, realistically there probably wasn’t hundreds of people touring it in such a short time frame. I really think that someone could have been in the basement without being noticed.
I don’t know how far back the police looked for when they asked neighbours for video footage. The neighbour across the street was upset that the police hadn’t retrieved her footage right away and she was worried that it would be overwritten before they took it. Maybe there is no footage of anyone entering the home because it was already overwritten.

The reports were to and from the area of the property, arriving and 3? Hrs later leaving in exact opposite directions and not seen on any cameras past the Sherman residence.

 

[ldlager]

The report of the neighbour and this video does not make logical sense to me. If the neighbour was concerned they could have easily taken a copy of it and saved the video themselves. To act as if they have no control of the video writing over itself is weak for me. That is how you give it to the police, on a thumb drive. We had a murder happen across the street, police put a card in our door the day after asking to call a special detective who handles video evidence as they saw our camera outside. We called and they gave date and times for us to copy and give them. The thumb was picked up a few days after we copied the video.

also to note our system is a home system not a paid monitoring system/plan and we can look back years of video, so not all camera systems are written over.

adding that my husband was looking at the video before we were asked, we were curious if anything was on it - the getaway car was on our video.

The neighbours may not have been tech savvy. i Likely wouldn’t know how to copynthe video either

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

The neighbours may not have been tech savvy. i Likely wouldn’t know how to copynthe video either

Funny enough I myself do not know how to make a copy but can easily review the video from an app on my iPad. If you have a system, I would think you know someone to help you make a copy.

And the police offered to help make a copy if we did not know how.

 

[WINDSOR]

Here is my hypothetical, which addresses both of these questions and how a payment (partial?) for the contract killer might have remained undetected. It is 100% speculation on my part and is extrapolated from the way I have dealt with my own emergency cash.

1. The Shermans decided to keep a large stash of emergency cash at their residence. They do so for reasons related both to refugee trauma and ordinary prudence.
2. The sum is large, at least a million dollars. This is because (a) the Shermans are extremely wealthy; (b) they may face risks that are unique to being extremely wealthy, such as kidnapping/ransom; and (c) for various tax reasons they may have an incentive to keep at least some money in cash.
4. This is purely a reserve and it remains untouched in the safe or other "safe" place. They don't use this reserve for pocket cash or even for larger cash spending (such as the money Honey withdrew presumably for holiday tips for her various service employees).
5. The Shermans tell Close Person (CP) about this reserve. They say (hypothetically), "In case something happens to us, there is a wall safe in the study behind the painting of the dog. The combination is your birthday reversed. There is a million dollars in cash plus our birth certificates, passports, and some jewelry." 6. The Shermans are not worried about CP knowing about the stash in the safe because CP has plenty of money of their own and will eventually share in their estate anyway.
7. CP hires an assassin to murder the Shermans. CP tells the murderer how to access the cash, which will constitute the fee, or a portion of it. The murderer does not steal anything else, such as cash or jewelry from the Shermans' persons.
8. When contacted by LE, CP says "Why yes, there was a wall safe in the study, but they didn't keep anything there except for their papers and some old jewelry, and as you can see all that is still there. So there certainly wasn't anything stolen from the house."

100 percent my speculation.

Facts that might support this: the urban explorer saw holes punched in the wall, leading to the theory that at one point there was a wall safe. The Shermans constantly had various service providers in and out of the house, and reasonable prudence suggests you'd want a safe place for even ordinary valuables.

Facts that might contradict this: For all their wealth, the Shermans didn't seem particularly security-conscious. Would they have had a safe? Would they have stored a large amount of cash?

Plausible, however I do not think the killers would embark on this project with only a promise of 'money in the safe'.

Secondly a million dollars even if it in all $100.00 bills takes up a huge amount of space, more that most wall safes can hold. It is 100 bundles of 100, $100 notes.
No doubt there are safes available that are large enough, probably you could have one custom built as well.




However, if the CP new about the money and the safe, possible CP could have accessed those funds some days after the murders, to help defer their costs.

So the question becomes, was there a safe and what was in it and where are the contents now?

 

[FromGermany1]

So the question becomes, was there a safe and what was in it and where are the contents now?

... and if there was money in it, was Honey's LW also in it and where is it now?

 

[Lexiintoronto]

... and if there was money in it, was Honey's LW also in it and where is it now?

‘LW’?

 

[ldlager]

‘LW’?

Last Will I think