Canada - Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese, and Leonard Dyck, all murdered, Alaska Hwy, BC, Jul 2019 #11

[sprucetip]

Thanks, I was only there for a few days at the end of last week, missed most of the action but was enough time on the ground to have a pretty good understanding of where key things were and what the terrain and climate was like.

To those wondering about chance of survival after getting wet I don’t think that’s a concern. The days are warm and from what I understand the water isn’t too cold this time of year either.

I did a 3-day nonstop 700km canoe race in the Yukon this summer and I think the temps compared to northern Manitoba are similar. We hit a nasty storm on a lake and got soaked. It wasn't cold out and it was only the afternoon, but we knew to get OFF the lake fast and change into dry clothes. Most people scratch from the race due to hypothermia, underestimating that it can happen, even in summer. Some are seasoned, well-conditioned athletes. The temps at night didn't get below 8C but even some people not used to the northern temps were freezing. It's amazing how fast hypothermia can hit you.

I say if those guys got dry soon after they dumped the boat, they had a chance. But if they stayed wet for any length of time, especially overnight, they would have been in a HEAP of trouble.

 

[Jen-Knee]

Nelson River Adventures does runs from Gillam to York Factory, and they have a lot of photos that give some ideas as to what the waters are like along the way. Might help some to get an idea of what the rive is like heading east.

 

[otto]

All this means is that they were on the bank of the Nelson at some point. That isn’t surprising as a way to avoid walking, probably with no sense of direction, through dense woods.

Some of us have posited that they could have followed the river, going east or west, along the shore, staying just out of sight.

If they managed to find a boat, the river current runs east to Hudson Bay. Gillam resident Clint Sawchuk takes people there in a 21’ jet boat, distance 145km/90 miles. One of his clients has posted a description, and photos, of the trip. The river is clearly passable going east, indeed quite broad in places as it approaches the ocean, and the client says nothing about rapids. Can anyone add further info on whether there is anything that would complicate passage going east?

Note that going west by boat would be against the current.

I think they followed Sundance Creek from the burned car to the Nelson River (runs East to the Hudson Bay).

You can see how the creek meanders, and how it's possible that evidence was found near the end of the creek, or some short distance farther downstream.

 

[Deleted member 248860]

Looks like you can travel that way. I found this article about some who traveled from Gillam.

Making history on the Hudson Bay coast. from Gillam to Seal River in the Oddney II.

Thanks. Those photos are similar to what Sawchuk’s client posted, and I think it highly unlikely that Sawchuk would be running rapids in a 21’ jet boat, especially with ordinary tourists.

Also, if these guys found a boat, going west against the current, unless you have power, is not so easy, especially without experience. It would be a lot easier, and faster, to go east with the current.

 

[Satchie]

I found a punt boat online and maybe this is the way the boat found used to look like? In this pic yes there is a partition/seat in the middle but it's down in the boat so ripping it out would not leave the kind of damage as in the boat found IMO.

I think this boat looks very similar: the rear seat has a built-in compartment for the fuel tank, the colour is also comparable.

I think the main shell of the boat was just more bendable than the gunwhale edge: when it encountered rocks the shell bent inward, but the gunwhale broke, and was ripped off. You can see on the other, less damaged side, how the gunwhale split rather than bend.

 

[1987]

I can't tell. The two sides of the boat have different types of damage. Maybe it buckled and the seat is at the bottom of the Nelson River? Maybe it was carelessly removed?

View attachment 197223

the missing seat weakens it. the rounded edge missing weakens it even more.

 

[Deleted member 248860]

Nelson River Adventures does runs from Gillam to York Factory, and they have a lot of photos that give some ideas as to what the waters are like along the way. Might help some to get an idea of what the rive is like heading east.

That is Clint Sawchuk’s operation. There is a link from his site to a client’s description, with photos, of the trip. No mention of rapids or any other impediment.

 

[Jen-Knee]

Re: the boat

This fellow has been responding to RCMP posts on Facebook and Twitter, pointing out that the punt boat belonged to his nephew, was already badly damaged as per the photos and probably washed ashore over a year ago.

So, it seems most likely Kam and Bryer were using it for shelter, if at all.

That's always possible. Unless they have a tent, they would need shelter. Although I also wouldn't be surprised if they did try to use it, damaged or not.

 

[FactFinder3000]

Re: the boat

This fellow has been responding to RCMP posts on Facebook and Twitter, pointing out that the punt boat belonged to his nephew, was already badly damaged as per the photos and probably washed ashore over a year ago.

So, it seems most likely Kam and Bryer were using it for shelter, if at all.

Apparently a few people have said it's their boat. So we have to take these reports with a grain of salt. I also wonder if it's possible the boat was already damaged when they found it, but perhaps not as much.

It's a couple hundred bucks worth of aluminum, I would think. Why would someone not have salvaged it if they knew about it?

 

[sprucetip]

Re: the boat

This fellow has been responding to RCMP posts on Facebook and Twitter, pointing out that the punt boat belonged to his nephew, was already badly damaged as per the photos and probably washed ashore over a year ago.

So, it seems most likely Kam and Bryer were using it for shelter, if at all.

Jeez, aren't the RCMP talking to the locals about who's boat it might be??

 

[otto]

Thanks. Those photos are similar to what Sawchuk’s client posted, and I think it highly unlikely that Sawchuk would be running rapids in a 21’ jet boat, especially with ordinary tourists.

Also, if these guys found a boat, going west against the current, unless you have power, is not so easy, especially without experience. It would be a lot easier, and faster, to go east with the current.

We haven't heard anything about oars, and most people put oars in a different place. Pretty sure this boat was going downstream from the dam.

 

[aphoto]

That's always possible. Unless they have a tent, they would need shelter. Although I also wouldn't be surprised if they did try to use it, damaged or not.

A tent would be far more noticeable that a discarded boat

 

[Gina20]

I did a 3-day nonstop 700km canoe race in the Yukon this summer and I think the temps compared to northern Manitoba are similar. We hit a nasty storm on a lake and got soaked. It wasn't cold out and it was only the afternoon, but we knew to get OFF the lake fast and change into dry clothes. Most people scratch from the race due to hypothermia, underestimating that it can happen, even in summer. Some are seasoned, well-conditioned athletes. The temps at night didn't get below 8C but even some people not used to the northern temps were freezing. It's amazing how fast hypothermia can hit you.

I say if those guys got dry soon after they dumped the boat, they had a chance. But if they stayed wet for any length of time, especially overnight, they would have been in a HEAP of trouble.

Thinking out loud here. Don't people with hypothermia sometimes strip off their clothes?

 

[Deleted member 248860]

I did a 3-day nonstop 700km canoe race in the Yukon this summer and I think the temps compared to northern Manitoba are similar. We hit a nasty storm on a lake and got soaked. It wasn't cold out and it was only the afternoon, but we knew to get OFF the lake fast and change into dry clothes. Most people scratch from the race due to hypothermia, underestimating that it can happen, even in summer. Some are seasoned, well-conditioned athletes. The temps at night didn't get below 8C but even some people not used to the northern temps were freezing. It's amazing how fast hypothermia can hit you.

I say if those guys got dry soon after they dumped the boat, they had a chance. But if they stayed wet for any length of time, especially overnight, they would have been in a HEAP of trouble.

Yes, and we know that there has been rain and thunderstorms and temperatures as low as 7°C. Without protection, including layered clothing, it seems to me that hypothermia is a real issue even without being in the river.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Apparently a few people have said it's their boat. So we have to take these reports with a grain of salt. I also wonder if it's possible the boat was already damaged when they found it, but perhaps not as much.

It's a couple hundred bucks worth of aluminum, I would think. Why would someone not have salvaged it if they knew about it?

Recycled aluminum is worth about $.30/lb and you'd have to get it to a recycler. Maybe it's not so worth it up there.

I agree that everyone's saying "that's my boat!"

 

[otto]

Re: the boat

This fellow has been responding to RCMP posts on Facebook and Twitter, pointing out that the punt boat belonged to his nephew, was already badly damaged as per the photos and probably washed ashore over a year ago.

So, it seems most likely Kam and Bryer were using it for shelter, if at all.

Wow. Then they were evading aerial detection by hiding under an aluminium boat, and the boat was there in all RCMP aerial photos, even those between July 22 and Aug 2 - meaning not a recent event.

If that's the case, if their things were left on the shore and the mangled boat is unrelated, where are they?

 

[otto]

I think this boat looks very similar: the rear seat has a built-in compartment for the fuel tank, the colour is also comparable.

I think the main shell of the boat was just more bendable than the gunwhale edge: when it encountered rocks the shell bent inward, but the gunwhale broke, and was ripped off. You can see on the other, less damaged side, how the gunwhale split rather than bend.

View attachment 197230

There is now a question of when this mangled boat was last scene on the shore of the Nelson River. RCMP must have aerial photos of before and after, and wasn't the location of the boat the reason why they had a closer look - that it was not on earlier aerial photos?

 

[NJSleuth91]

I did a 3-day nonstop 700km canoe race in the Yukon this summer and I think the temps compared to northern Manitoba are similar. We hit a nasty storm on a lake and got soaked. It wasn't cold out and it was only the afternoon, but we knew to get OFF the lake fast and change into dry clothes. Most people scratch from the race due to hypothermia, underestimating that it can happen, even in summer. Some are seasoned, well-conditioned athletes. The temps at night didn't get below 8C but even some people not used to the northern temps were freezing. It's amazing how fast hypothermia can hit you.

I say if those guys got dry soon after they dumped the boat, they had a chance. But if they stayed wet for any length of time, especially overnight, they would have been in a HEAP of trouble.

Let's hope that's what happened because then there's a much better chance of their remains being recovered compared to if they drowned. Also lows in the area at night are in the 45-55 degree range.

Re: the boat

This fellow has been responding to RCMP posts on Facebook and Twitter, pointing out that the punt boat belonged to his nephew, was already badly damaged as per the photos and probably washed ashore over a year ago.

So, it seems most likely Kam and Bryer were using it for shelter, if at all.

That doesn't necessarily mean they didn't try to use it to get away. I guess a big clue is, as people said, whether the items were randomly scattered or seemed like they were organized. But either way if they had to abandon a bunch of their items (due to having to run away from the searching officers or whatever) that indicates things probably didn't go well for them. They could only take limited items in the first place from the RAV4.

 

[Kiantra]

I think they followed Sundance Creek from the burned car to the Nelson River (runs East to the Hudson Bay).

You can see how the creek meanders, and how it's possible that evidence was found near the end of the creek, or some short distance farther downstream.

View attachment 197228

Thank you for posting that. Exactly what I was looking for.

 

[Deleted member 248860]

If that's the case, if their things were left on the shore and the mangled boat is unrelated, where are they?

Dead unless they managed to get out of the entire area.