Canadian hostage, wife & children freed from Afghanistan, husband arrested for abuse, Oct 2017 #2

[Grace.212]

Not sure if we will ever know.
It could be her, it could be someone who has a duty to report abuse (someone in the medical or mental health field perhaps)

Could have been while she was hospitalized. Does that kind of info come out in a trial or is it kept confidential?

 

[keeleydoll]

https://www.therecord.com/news-story/7611269-freed-man-was-raised-in-region/

“self-described "pacifist Mennonite hippy-child" from Breslau..... Boyle ultimately returned to his Kitchener school to graduate, around the same time he was becoming heavily involved in online gaming”

I still haven’t found where I read he’d been of the Brethren faith, but in my personal experience with Mennonites, this doesn’t jive. A Mennonite carpenter made our cabinetry and he’d had to get a special dispensation from the elders to have electricity connected to his workshop a couple years earlier. One day when we went to check on progress he mentioned that he had “strayed” and may get in trouble. We asked if he’d had a drink of alcohol or something, but no, he’d taken his sick son to town to see a medical doctor, hadn’t gotten approval and didn’t know how they would punish him. IME from living near a large Mennonite community they do not routinely use electricity, internet or vehicles more modern than horse and buggies.

Our local Brethren/Dunkard ladies wear bonnets and the younger girls and the men do wear their hair long with a beard and usually a hat. They don’t allow (at least my great grandmother’s church) games of cards at all or partner dancing, I’ll have to ask my grandmother again. They certainly wouldn’t support internet gaming or cohabiting before marriage.



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[Intermezzo]

https://www.therecord.com/news-story/7611269-freed-man-was-raised-in-region/

“self-described "pacifist Mennonite hippy-child" from Breslau..... Boyle ultimately returned to his Kitchener school to graduate, around the same time he was becoming heavily involved in online gaming”

I still haven’t found where I read he’d been of the Brethren faith, but in my personal experience with Mennonites, this doesn’t jive. A Mennonite carpenter made our cabinetry and he’d had to get a special dispensation from the elders to have electricity connected to his workshop a couple years earlier. One day when we went to check on progress he mentioned that he had “strayed” and may get in trouble. We asked if he’d had a drink of alcohol or something, but no, he’d taken his sick son to town to see a medical doctor, hadn’t gotten approval and didn’t know how they would punish him. IME from living near a large Mennonite community they do not routinely use electricity, internet or vehicles more modern than horse and buggies.

Our local Brethren/Dunkard ladies wear bonnets and the younger girls and the men do wear their hair long with a beard and usually a hat. They don’t allow (at least my great grandmother’s church) games of cards at all or partner dancing, I’ll have to ask my grandmother again. They certainly wouldn’t support internet gaming or cohabiting before marriage.



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His parents are Anglican and Catholic and I just read that only about 40% of students at that attend that school are Mennonite,. They accept students of all religions.
Perhaps, He and his family did not live their daily lives as Mennonites but paid the tuition for him to attend that private school.

 

[Intermezzo]

Could have been while she was hospitalized. Does that kind of info come out in a trial or is it kept confidential?

I follow a retired Ottawa Lawyer who has strong opinions about JB and this case and he tweets about doctors reporting which started an investigation Honestly, I don't not for sure.
I am not certain, depends if it that evidence comes out in trial and if the reporters relay that information via tweets and news casts. No cameras in court rooms here
My experience with trials was mostly with Florida cases, not so much here in Canada. I lived in the Orlando area for many years and became accustomed to the Sunshine Laws and I was there during the whole Caylee Anthony search and subsequent trial of her mother.

 

[tijd]

Hello. Been lurking till now. Thanks for all the articles & links.

Josh is a narcissist and a controlling manipulator. That’s obvious. Anyone and everyone can get sucked into a narcissist’s web—anyone. All it takes is the right situation and the right narcissist, not an intellectual disability. Once you’ve been sucked in, it can be very hard to resist their plans and decisions, even when they place you in danger.

Traveling while pregnant wasn’t a smart move. But as I see it, that’s really the only thing she can be faulted for. One stupid mistake. It seems unduly harsh to judge her because she had children in captivity, knowing that her husband is now an alleged sexual predator. And if he’s sexually abused her, I’d bet my entire back account that she’s been abused mentally, emotionally, and financially too. I feel it’s important to cut her some slack and not assume the worst (being complicit in an extremist plan, being intellectually disabled, etc).

 

[MaryG12]

Another Red Flag was she "waited" for JB when he dumped her to marry Zaynab Khadr. He probably needed Zaynab help to figure out the plan, then divorced her quickly and went to start his adventure with an American.

RSBM

That being the case, sounds like CC has esteem issues, compound that with JB manipulating her...he divorced Zaynab because she was "not submissive enough" IIRC.

I feel sorry for CC but even more sorry for their children, caught up in this disaster.

 

[Lilibet]

Hello. Been lurking till now. Thanks for all the articles & links.

Josh is a narcissist and a controlling manipulator. That’s obvious. Anyone and everyone can get sucked into a narcissist’s web—anyone. All it takes is the right situation and the right narcissist, not an intellectual disability. Once you’ve been sucked in, it can be very hard to resist their plans and decisions, even when they place you in danger.

Traveling while pregnant wasn’t a smart move. But as I see it, that’s really the only thing she can be faulted for. One stupid mistake. It seems unduly harsh to judge her because she had children in captivity, knowing that her husband is now an alleged sexual predator. And if he’s sexually abused her, I’d bet my entire back account that she’s been abused mentally, emotionally, and financially too. I feel it’s important to cut her some slack and not assume the worst (being complicit in an extremist plan, being intellectually disabled, etc).

:welcome: tijd

 

[bears10]

This highlights some of JBs odd Wikipedia edits, entries, etc. he really loved Wikipedia lol. And might be trying to reach out to one of his equally strange former Wikipedia entry editor buddies?

http://wikipediocracy.com/2017/10/27/the-strange-case-of-hostage-wikipedian-joshua-boyle/


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[Lilibet]

This highlights some of JBs odd Wikipedia edits, entries, etc. he really loved Wikipedia lol. And might be trying to reach out to one of his equally strange former Wikipedia entry editor buddies?

http://wikipediocracy.com/2017/10/27/the-strange-case-of-hostage-wikipedian-joshua-boyle/


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Thank you for posting this article, which I recommend everyone read for a look at the mind of Joshua Boyle. It lays out his subject interests in detail. I won’t quote them here because they are abnormal, sexually perverted, showing questionable loyalties and disgusting as a whole. He broke Wikipedia rules, posted about the Khadrs and his own family without revealing his bias, and in general was full of himself. I can’t imagine what CC saw in him. The 15 counts he has been charged with also show his true colors. He’s dangerous IMO.

 

[tijd]

Thanks for the welcome.

Here’s a good article describing a particularly nasty sort of psychological abuse, one favored by narcissists. There’s some political stuff because it’s The Guardian, but that can be ignored: https://www.theguardian.com/science...-manipulation-reality-coping-mechanisms-trump

A snippet:

“When someone is so certain about what they believe and they keep on insisting and trying to convince you – over a period of time – it erodes your own perception. And having to verify reality is in itself destabilizing.”

Caitlan would have been particularly vulnerable to gaslighting. Josh knew more than she did about Islam, its sects, and its cultures. She would have been dependent on his advice for getting through their captivity safely. But he is not a safe person. I think it’s pretty obvious that she didn’t know he was an unsafe person until it was too late. And he was the only one who could verify her reality. She was in a truly nightmarish situation all around.

 

[Grace.212]

Caitlan would have been particularly vulnerable to gaslighting. Josh knew more than she did about Islam, its sects, and its cultures. She would have been dependent on his advice for getting through their captivity safely. But he is not a safe person. I think it’s pretty obvious that she didn’t know he was an unsafe person until it was too late. And he was the only one who could verify her reality. She was in a truly nightmarish situation all around.

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, Times new roman]I get what you are saying once they crossed the border into the dangerous territory. She was in an extreme vulnerable place.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, Times new roman] But I question her judgement before. The marriage in Costa Rica (was the family invited) the keeping the pregnancy secret from her parents. The idea that she would be camping and backpacking while pregnant. The fact she knew she had a medical condition but decided to travel with no medical attention.[/FONT]
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[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, Times new roman]Of course I have sympathy for her and especially the children. I will not though if she stays with him after his release from jail, guilty or not. Her Mother Bear instincts MUST kick in, before she lets this idiot back into her life.[/FONT]
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[Lilibet]

Thanks for the welcome.

Here’s a good article describing a particularly nasty sort of psychological abuse, one favored by narcissists. There’s some political stuff because it’s The Guardian, but that can be ignored: https://www.theguardian.com/science...-manipulation-reality-coping-mechanisms-trump

A snippet:




Caitlan would have been particularly vulnerable to gaslighting. Josh knew more than she did about Islam, its sects, and its cultures. She would have been dependent on his advice for getting through their captivity safely. But he is not a safe person. I think it’s pretty obvious that she didn’t know he was an unsafe person until it was too late. And he was the only one who could verify her reality. She was in a truly nightmarish situation all around.

Very interesting article. Lots to ponder. Thanks for posting it. I understand what you are saying.

While CC was certainly vulnerable to gaslighting while they were captives, I have to point out that she had known JB in an online forum since her teens. She had lived with him in Toronto for at least four months in 2007. He was already involved with the Khadr family, even though he didn’t marry Zaynab until later. Whether CC knew about his bizarre Wikipedia interests we don’t know, but he certainly bragged about his numerous “edits” and articles. She may not have fully realized how unsafe he was until it was too late, but was she unable to see clearly and consider rationally what he was involved in? Maybe she had gone “blind” as a naive and impressionable teen due to his manipulation. I don’t know.

The article says this:

Someone can try to gaslight you, but it can’t happen unless you allow it.”

This is the tricky part. Because when there is someone in a position of power or authority, someone you idealize, or even as in many co-dependent relationships – when there is someone you are afraid to lose – their insistence that their reality is the reality can often cause you to doubt what you know to be true.

“We are living in a time where a lot of people are having a tough time deciding what’s real and feeling like they are being manipulated,” Stern says. “If they know something is true and somebody tells you it’s not true, holding on to your reality is essential. You can’t be gaslighted if you stay inside your own reality and recognize the manipulation when you see it.”

Long before they left on their trip, she chose JB’s twisted version of reality, for whatever reason. But it was a choice. And it appears that she made choices overriding her maternal instincts and even the natural desire to share happy news of her pregnancy with family and friends.

I don’t want to be hard on CC. She’s been through more than we can imagine. I’m a compassionate person and on the side of anyone suffering abuse. She had no way out while in captivity. She was as much JB’s prisoner as the Haqqani’s. But she also made choices that put her and her firstborn child in that position.

There are entirely too many cases here on WS of mothers who have chosen to be with dangerous abusive men. Their children have suffered or been killed because of their involvement with an unsafe man. The mothers have even participated. We can excuse them because they are abused, have low self esteem and have been gaslighted. But at what point are women/mothers responsible for their initial and later choices? I don’t have the answer to that, but I do wonder if it diminishes women to blame the man and not expect women to have some accountability for their choices. I think that’s worth thinking about in general and in CC’s case, regardless of how much compassion we have for her.

JMO and feel free to discuss. I’m always open to different ideas.

 

[MsFacetious]

I think she was naive when she originally met and lived with him, then married him later after his first (opportunistic) marriage to Khadr -- who wasn't subservient enough for his liking, we're told -- but after that, I think she was abused. Like many abused spouses, she lost her self-confidence and ability to act independently to protect herself and, subsequently, her children. That is, of course, only one possible explanation for her behaviour, but it's the one that rings true to me. Especially as it now seems that when she was back in an environment where she spoke the language and had family support, she has had the courage to act. (That's if the charges originated with her, which, IMO, they likely did.)

I totally agree. However I also agree that now she has to put her children first. If she cannot then they need to go to someone who can. At this point maternal instincts have to override all the other crap. If it doesn't, the kids need to be protected from her as well. I hope she is able to get help and get away.... however, the kids definitely need to regardless.

He was probably so upset with JB taking his pregnant daughter to a very dangerous part of the world he couldn't bring himself to go at that time. We don't know for sure if or when he came. I think I read her mom came alone the first time...and iirc they both came, (may very well still be here) in Dec.
I agree with him being upset with his son in law. I would be pissed as well.

Yeah my Dad would freak too... and he's a pretty tolerant guy. He's bailed my sister's husband out of jail a couple times. However, when it comes to abuse he wouldn't even consider it. My dad would be there to visit us, but I'm not sure he wouldn't end up in jail after the visit.

Very interesting article. Lots to ponder. Thanks for posting it. I understand what you are saying.

While CC was certainly vulnerable to gaslighting while they were captives, I have to point out that she had known JB in an online forum since her teens. She had lived with him in Toronto for at least four months in 2007. He was already involved with the Khadr family, even though he didn’t marry Zaynab until later. Whether CC knew about his bizarre Wikipedia interests we don’t know, but he certainly bragged about his numerous “edits” and articles. She may not have fully realized how unsafe he was until it was too late, but was she unable to see clearly and consider rationally what he was involved in? Maybe she had gone “blind” as a naive and impressionable teen due to his manipulation. I don’t know.

The article says this:

Someone can try to gaslight you, but it can’t happen unless you allow it.”

This is the tricky part. Because when there is someone in a position of power or authority, someone you idealize, or even as in many co-dependent relationships – when there is someone you are afraid to lose – their insistence that their reality is the reality can often cause you to doubt what you know to be true.

“We are living in a time where a lot of people are having a tough time deciding what’s real and feeling like they are being manipulated,” Stern says. “If they know something is true and somebody tells you it’s not true, holding on to your reality is essential. You can’t be gaslighted if you stay inside your own reality and recognize the manipulation when you see it.”

Long before they left on their trip, she chose JB’s twisted version of reality, for whatever reason. But it was a choice. And it appears that she made choices overriding her maternal instincts and even the natural desire to share happy news of her pregnancy with family and friends.

I don’t want to be hard on CC. She’s been through more than we can imagine. I’m a compassionate person and on the side of anyone suffering abuse. She had no way out while in captivity. She was as much JB’s prisoner as the Haqqani’s. But she also made choices that put her and her firstborn child in that position.

There are entirely too many cases here on WS of mothers who have chosen to be with dangerous abusive men. Their children have suffered or been killed because of their involvement with an unsafe man. The mothers have even participated. We can excuse them because they are abused, have low self esteem and have been gaslighted. But at what point are women/mothers responsible for their initial and later choices? I don’t have the answer to that, but I do wonder if it diminishes women to blame the man and not expect women to have some accountability for their choices. I think that’s worth thinking about in general and in CC’s case, regardless of how much compassion we have for her.

JMO and feel free to discuss. I’m always open to different ideas.

Lilbet, you are totally my favorite. Your posts on this thread have been awesome.
I agree here too. Yes, women are abused and as a result allow abuse of their children.
In THIS particular case this is her chance to get away. Her chance to protect her children.
If she does not take this opportunity then someone else needs to take her children.
I don't want to see these kids being the next Mariah, Sherin, Juliette, Erica, Ethan.....
Give her the chance to protect them. If she won't, let someone else do it. :twocents:

 

[Bellbaby]

I'm not sure if anyone posted this article yet, but I feel it says it all to JB psyche and mental state. I question whether the charges are related to the children and not to CC, with the exception of the confinement charge.

This is a long article, and it gets more disturbing as you read. Touching on Nazi's, torture devices and pedophilia.

http://nationalpost.com/news/canada...rests-through-his-obsessive-wikipedia-editing

 

[nuff]

I'm not sure if anyone posted this article yet, but I feel it says it all to JB psyche and mental state. I question whether the charges are related to the children and not to CC, with the exception of the confinement charge.

This is a long article, and it gets more disturbing as you read. Touching on Nazi's, torture devices and pedophilia.

http://nationalpost.com/news/canada...rests-through-his-obsessive-wikipedia-editing

Yikes. Adrian Humphreys is doing some really good crime investigation and writing. Although I disagreed with giving Dellen Millard another moment in the spotlight, Humphreys' interview with him was excellent. Now this, and I haven't seen anyone else think of analyzing JB's previous behaviour in this way, even though it must be readily accessible.

 

[Grace.212]

This is a long article, and it gets more disturbing as you read. Touching on Nazi's, torture devices and pedophilia.

Boyle’s father sent a U-haul truck to load up his son’s belongings, which included some unusual items, said another neighbour, who didn’t want to be named. Among the items were medical forceps, chains and leather straps, a resident said.

http://nationalpost.com/feature/joshua-boyle

 

[Bellbaby]

She is! Very smart to analyze his Wikipedia posts. The mentioning of pedophilia posts, I found very disturbing.

 

[chinacat67]

Yikes. Adrian Humphreys is doing some really good crime investigation and writing. Although I disagreed with giving Dellen Millard another moment in the spotlight, Humphreys' interview with him was excellent. Now this, and I haven't seen anyone else think of analyzing JB's previous behaviour in this way, even though it must be readily accessible.

Gosh, by that article sounds an awful lot like he has a BDSM fetish and he is Master, she is Sub, IMO. Nothing wrong for consenting adults but I do not believe she is consenting now, if she ever truly was... and he left his other wife because she wasn't submissive enough....

MOO

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[Lilibet]

My thanks button isn’t working this morning, so this is thanks for all the good posts.
:loveyou:

I debated whether to bring over this post by Oceanblueeyes from the Gabby thread, but I think it’s an amazing post and is the one that got me seriously thinking about the accountability of women. I am in NO way comparing CC to this “uterus” as some have called her. But I think Gabby’s case and others like it illustrate why all women have the obligation to make choices that protect their children...and not let their own childhoods, life experience, current abuse or drug use stand in the way of or excuse their participation or complicity in their children’s abuse. And I will add that men also have this obligation toward their children.

As others have said, this is Caitlan’s opportunity to protect her children. If she is the one who called LE on JB, I congratulate her and support her and send huge comforting hugs her way. If not, I hope she can now see clearly and stand strong on the side of her kids. They do not need this man in their lives. They need a strong mama bear protecting them. And Caitlin needs all the support she can get to be and keep being that mama bear.
JMO

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/s...-1-Jan-2018-*Arrests*&p=13858204#post13858204

 

[Gunslinging Granny]

His (Joshua Boyle) more esoteric interests soon emerged, including a strange attachment to the “Pear of Anguish,” an old implement used as a choking device. In May 2005 he edited pages on foot whipping, chastity belts, cheek kissing and “Facials (sex act)”.

He later added a photo of a female model in a bra wearing a “ring gag”, an antique picture of a dominatrix, and a photo he took of a condom machine.

He edited articles on the Islamic views on anal sex and oral sex. He uploaded a photo, taken by someone else, of a Judas Cradle, a spike-topped stool used for torture.

He divided his attention between that material and his primary public interests of justice, social activism, military history, global atrocities, crime and, eventually, terrorism.
http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/former-afghan-captive-revealed-odd-array-of-interests-through-his-obsessive-wikipedia-editing


These aren't interests of a "peace-loving hippie".