Did John Ramsey carry the body to contaminate the scene or not?

[Rott Mom]

A poor choice of word on my part. IMO, JR could have carried her up next to his body - not away. Does this make sense?

 

[kanzz]

A poor choice of word on my part. IMO, JR could have carried her up next to his body - not away. Does this make sense?

Sure. And don't worry about the word choice. I get it. I've given this quite a bit of thought, and I just try to envision how difficult it might have been to carry her, rigid and lifeless, a 4' 48# bundle, while trying to make sure that he didn't trip and fall while going up those stairs.

He was 53 years old. By then, most of us either use a hand rail or look where we're stepping. My guess is that he was holding her away from his body to look down and see the steps between her and him. But I'm just guessing, not defending him.

 

[Ambitioned]

Especially when having to navigate that mess of a basement.

 

[Rott Mom]

Thank you!

 

[ZoriahNZ]

And second sight. As soon as Arndt gave him the go-ahead he was up and running, like a greyhound out of a trap. He was able to go straight to the wine cellar.

I'm probably exaggerating just a little. Lol.

This is especially interesting when you factor in that JR was allegedly told by Arndt to search the place again from TOP to bottom. Not the other way round.

 

[kaykay543]

I am in no way defending JR - but, it would be pretty difficult to cradle a 4' 48#, stiff as a board corpse, as you were navigating a stairway.

I agree but no normal parent would have held her so far out and away from themselves. If nothing else you would hold her against your chest as you went up the steps. He knew she was dead yet he asked LA if she was dead. And you could already smell decomposition on her. JR didn't want to get dirty carrying her up the steps.

I also agree that he couldn't take it anymore when no one found her. Which is why he went straight to the basement and found her himself. He wanted it over with. I also suspect he could have moved the body during that hour plus that no one saw him.

 

[UKGuy]

I agree but no normal parent would have held her so far out and away from themselves. If nothing else you would hold her against your chest as you went up the steps. He knew she was dead yet he asked LA if she was dead. And you could already smell decomposition on her. JR didn't want to get dirty carrying her up the steps.

I also agree that he couldn't take it anymore when no one found her. Which is why he went straight to the basement and found her himself. He wanted it over with. I also suspect he could have moved the body during that hour plus that no one saw him.

kaykay543,
BBM: I reckon he did. JR knows in advance what he is going to do, he has it all planned. The only way he could pull it off is if he had prior knowledge of JonBenet's location and more importantly her disposition.

The latter matters since anyone else discovering JonBenet is likely to shout for assistance and leave JonBenet in place?

JR knows, in evidential terms, he can safely carry JonBenet upstairs without any detriment to his own forensic status.

I reckon he knew he could carry JonBenet like that because he had already moved her into the wine-cellar, holding her away from his body?

Fleet White had already looked in the wine-cellar and he never saw JonBenet, yet JR who has extremely bad eyesight hence his need for a airplane pilot, sees JonBenet immediately, what did McEnroe say Give Me a Break?

The case could be JDI with PR helping JR with the staging?

.

 

[BoldBear]

[snip]
Fleet White had already looked in the wine-cellar and he never saw JonBenet, yet JR who has extremely bad eyesight hence his need for a airplane pilot, sees JonBenet immediately, what did McEnroe say Give Me a Break?
.

I'm nearsighted and I can't find my glasses if I put them down and forget where I left them. I also believe John knew where the body was by the time he went to find her. I would notice a large white patch (a blanket) in a room where it shouldn't have been. Details get blurry. They don't get shrouded in a veil of darkness. How about we don't exaggerate his eyesight problems. Fleet was about 12' behind him when he opened the door. John saw her when he really couldn't have seen her because he had to be out of the way when he opened the door and there was a bit of wall that would have obscured his vision. This issue would have been self evident if Smit hadn't been trying so hard to throw doubt on what's obvious.

Since Fleet had opened the door before and didn't find her, either her body was moved after fleet opened the door or John shouted before he ever saw her. Take your pick.

 

[UKGuy]

I'm nearsighted and I can't find my glasses if I put them down and forget where I left them. I also believe John knew where the body was by the time he went to find her. I would notice a large white patch (a blanket) in a room where it shouldn't have been. Details get blurry. They don't get shrouded in a veil of darkness. How about we don't exaggerate his eyesight problems. Fleet was about 12' behind him when he opened the door. John saw her when he really couldn't have seen her because he had to be out of the way when he opened the door and there was a bit of wall that would have obscured his vision. This issue would have been self evident if Smit hadn't been trying so hard to throw doubt on what's obvious.

Since Fleet had opened the door before and didn't find her, either her body was moved after fleet opened the door or John shouted before he ever saw her. Take your pick.

BoldBear,
JR has an eyesight medical condition one that goes beyond the standard short or long sight issues associated with age. I mention it since it must be a factor in deciding what JR could or could not be expected to see?

e.g. i don't have a bias against visually impaired people.

Since Fleet had opened the door before and didn't find her, either her body was moved after fleet opened the door

The probability is very high that the body was moved, hence the blanket.

John shouted before he ever saw her. Take your pick.

That's the point, he can only shout in advance of being able to see her if he knows she is inside the wine-cellar!

The forensic evidence associated with Patsy does not place her inside the wine-cellar, only that she likely applied the ligature and paintbrush.

What motive would JR have for messing up a homicide crime-scene? Why did he not check JonBenet for signs of life in the wine-cellar, attempt mouth to resucitation, etc.

Instead he goes out of his way to move the body.

JR could have picked that blanket up in the basement and used it to wrap JonBenet so to prevent forensic transfer, when he finds her moving her again provides cover for any prior transfer.

Basically JR could have re-organized stuff in the basement to look less incriminating for the family, e.g. dumping the pink nightgown into the wine-cellar?

The R's had all night to run dirty and/or bloodstained clothing through the washing machine.

.

 

[Cottonstar]

BoldBear,
JR has an eyesight medical condition one that goes beyond the standard short or long sight issues associated with age. I mention it since it must be a factor in deciding what JR could or could not be expected to see?

e.g. i don't have a bias against visually impaired people.


The probability is very high that the body was moved, hence the blanket.



That's the point, he can only shout in advance of being able to see her if he knows she is inside the wine-cellar!

The forensic evidence associated with Patsy does not place her inside the wine-cellar, only that she likely applied the ligature and paintbrush.

What motive would JR have for messing up a homicide crime-scene? Why did he not check JonBenet for signs of life in the wine-cellar, attempt mouth to resucitation, etc.

Instead he goes out of his way to move the body.

JR could have picked that blanket up in the basement and used it to wrap JonBenet so to prevent forensic transfer, when he finds her moving her again provides cover for any prior transfer.

Basically JR could have re-organized stuff in the basement to look less incriminating for the family, e.g. dumping the pink nightgown into the wine-cellar?

The R's had all night to run dirty and/or bloodstained clothing through the washing machine.

.

e.g. dumping the pink barbie nightgown into the wine cellar?


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[Cottonstar]

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[BoldBear]

[snip]
The R's had all night to run dirty and/or bloodstained clothing through the washing machine.

Okay fine.

I take it the thing about the laundry is more hyperbole.

In the stress of strangling one's daughter to death, washing the evidence doesn't come to my mind. Forensic investigations would look at the washer and dryer. You said there was blood to worry about. One unnoticeable transfer might be detected. Of course we're dealing with investigators who may have thought this was a slam dunk--how nice to have AH working for the defense. Officer French wasn't the only one who forgot to do a top to bottom search. Maybe a little too much eggnog or pot laced brownies.

So other than the windowless room, where do you think John or Patsy stashed the body prior to John 'finding' it. Do you think the investigators missed doing any investigation of that spot? Judging by the looks of the basement carpet, there wouldn't be many places where the dirt wouldn't be disturbed. Jonbenet had lint on the bottom of her feet. Do you think she picked it up before or after she lost consciousness?

 

[icedtea4me]

*snip*
Since Fleet had opened the door before and didn't find her, either her body was moved after fleet opened the door or John shouted before he ever saw her. Take your pick.

Or how about if Fleet had stepped in the room a bit more, he would have seen her?

 

[BoldBear]

Or how about if Fleet had stepped in the room a bit more, he would have seen her?

Since Fleet didn't live in the house, I don't know if Fleet seeing a blanket on the floor of a dark room would alarm him. It would have registered to John as being out of place. As far as Fleet knew, the police had already searched the house. I would have wanted to search the house too. Doing something and trying is always better than sitting around and worrying.

 

[UKGuy]

Okay fine.

I take it the thing about the laundry is more hyperbole.

In the stress of strangling one's daughter to death, washing the evidence doesn't come to my mind. Forensic investigations would look at the washer and dryer. You said there was blood to worry about. One unnoticeable transfer might be detected. Of course we're dealing with investigators who may have thought this was a slam dunk--how nice to have AH working for the defense. Officer French wasn't the only one who forgot to do a top to bottom search. Maybe a little too much eggnog or pot laced brownies.

So other than the windowless room, where do you think John or Patsy stashed the body prior to John 'finding' it. Do you think the investigators missed doing any investigation of that spot? Judging by the looks of the basement carpet, there wouldn't be many places where the dirt wouldn't be disturbed. Jonbenet had lint on the bottom of her feet. Do you think she picked it up before or after she lost consciousness?

BoldBear,
JonBenet could have been hidden anywhere in the basement, say the crawl-space, patently they missed JonBenet first time round.

Lint on her feet likely came from her bed, you really should expect to see dust, dirt or carpet fibers if she had walked about the basement?

JonBenet probably picked the lint up prior to being asphyxiated in the basement, i.e. she was carried there and the wine-cellar crime-scene was staged in-place.

The basement might have nothing to do with JonBenet's initial assault, its just a place to hide her body whilst the parents claim she has been kidnapped?

I think when ever it was realized JonBenet was not responding that's when the staging plan took place, she might have been staged first in her bed, when this was vetoed, she was carried down the stairs to the basement and a homicide was staged, with Patsy having a lot of input.

The million dollar Q is : who is Patsy staging for, certainly not herself given all the forensic evidence she deposited on JonBenet?

.

 

[UKGuy]

Or how about if Fleet had stepped in the room a bit more, he would have seen her?

icedtea4me,
The thing is was she there when Fleet White looked? He had much better eyesight than JR.

I reckon Fleet White is certain JonBenet was not in the wine-cellar when he looked the first time, hence why he went back down for another look, despite being told not to.

JonBenet wrapped in a blanket accompanied by a bloodstained nighgown is all very portable, its striking no other relevant artifact was present, but stuff was missing from JonBenet's bedroom along with stuff that should not really be there, e.g. soiled pajama bottoms, candy-box marked with feces !

.

 

[Hazelnutty]

The basement was so horribly cluttered, dirty & dark , so possibly Fleet could have overlooked her wrapped in a blanket? She was just a tiny thing.
Really wish someone in the Fleet family would write a book. Surely they will after JR passed.
JMOO

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[southernmimi]

Fleet White most likely never wants to relive the nightmare he went through with the Ramseys.

 

[BoldBear]

BoldBear,
JonBenet could have been hidden anywhere in the basement, say the crawl-space, patently they missed JonBenet first time round.

Unless you want to explain the huge amounts of dirt, dust and crud found in a crawl space, don't use that as an option.

Lint on her feet likely came from her bed, you really should expect to see dust, dirt or carpet fibers if she had walked about the basement?

She picked up the lint on her feet from her bed? You can do better than that.

JonBenet probably picked the lint up prior to being asphyxiated in the basement, i.e. she was carried there and the wine-cellar crime-scene was staged in-place.

The basement might have nothing to do with JonBenet's initial assault, its just a place to hide her body whilst the parents claim she has been kidnapped?

Okay. The basement might not have anything to do with the initial assault. I just got done proposing that she was on the kitchen counter after the head blow. That would have been the ideal place to wipe her down.

I think when ever it was realized JonBenet was not responding that's when the staging plan took place, she might have been staged first in her bed, when this was vetoed, she was carried down the stairs to the basement and a homicide was staged, with Patsy having a lot of input.

A bedroom staging. Good. And the evidence for that was a folded up bedspread, a missing blanket and a pillow at the end of the bed. Okay.

And of course, the bedroom was sealed off for a forensic investigation.

This is Patsy writing the note in her own hand and using her trademark acronym to close the note. She even gets in a few gabs at John. That's smart. It's always best to write a ransom note and have it point directly back at yourself. The kidnapper wanted John to be well rested. What a thoughtful wife.

The problem is if they wrote it together, one of them should have noticed there were too many things to point back to Patsy.

I'd also like you to reread the first paragraph. The way the language is arrange creates a classic sign of someone who's trying to write above their level. This is someone trying to sound more intelligent than they are. Yes there are spelling errors, but they're intentional.

There are three distinct sections of the ransom note. The introduction/explanation, the threat/consequences and the insult/ultimatum. If there were two people writing it, then they were together for the first and maybe the 2nd part of the ransom note. The last part of the note was an attack--the writer stopped being nice. Where did that change come from? I believe that change came from the other person leaving. Had that other person been there, those insults would have been left out. That last part also insults John--the repetition. It's making a statement: "John didn't write this. John didn't write this. John didn't write this." And it was in Patsy's handwriting so John didn't write it.

Let me put it this way: We all know the argument that the writer started by disguising their handwriting. As the ransom note progresses, the writer relaxes and gets closer and closer to his or her own handwriting; therefore, that handwriting is more reliable to determine who the writer was. But what if the writer had someone with him or her and that other person didn't want the note to point at Patsy. Later when that person was out of the picture, the handwriting changed to look like Patsy's writing. The first part of the note is disguised and when that other person is out of the picture, the handwriting becomes Patsy's.

The million dollar Q is : who is Patsy staging for, certainly not herself given all the forensic evidence she deposited on JonBenet?

That's the question? Twenty years later and you believe Patsy was trying to protect her meal ticket or her son? Hmmm...I absolutely agree that things wouldn't have gone to this extreme if Patsy would have faced her problems with courage and fortitude, but my answer is for completely different reasons.

 

[UKGuy]

Unless you want to explain the huge amounts of dirt, dust and crud found in a crawl space, don't use that as an option.



She picked up the lint on her feet from her bed? You can do better than that.



Okay. The basement might not have anything to do with the initial assault. I just got done proposing that she was on the kitchen counter after the head blow. That would have been the ideal place to wipe her down.



A bedroom staging. Good. And the evidence for that was a folded up bedspread, a missing blanket and a pillow at the end of the bed. Okay.

And of course, the bedroom was sealed off for a forensic investigation.

This is Patsy writing the note in her own hand and using her trademark acronym to close the note. She even gets in a few gabs at John. That's smart. It's always best to write a ransom note and have it point directly back at yourself. The kidnapper wanted John to be well rested. What a thoughtful wife.

The problem is if they wrote it together, one of them should have noticed there were too many things to point back to Patsy.

I'd also like you to reread the first paragraph. The way the language is arrange creates a classic sign of someone who's trying to write above their level. This is someone trying to sound more intelligent than they are. Yes there are spelling errors, but they're intentional.

There are three distinct sections of the ransom note. The introduction/explanation, the threat/consequences and the insult/ultimatum. If there were two people writing it, then they were together for the first and maybe the 2nd part of the ransom note. The last part of the note was an attack--the writer stopped being nice. Where did that change come from? I believe that change came from the other person leaving. Had that other person been there, those insults would have been left out. That last part also insults John--the repetition. It's making a statement: "John didn't write this. John didn't write this. John didn't write this." And it was in Patsy's handwriting so John didn't write it.

Let me put it this way: We all know the argument that the writer started by disguising their handwriting. As the ransom note progresses, the writer relaxes and gets closer and closer to his or her own handwriting; therefore, that handwriting is more reliable to determine who the writer was. But what if the writer had someone with him or her and that other person didn't want the note to point at Patsy. Later when that person was out of the picture, the handwriting changed to look like Patsy's writing. The first part of the note is disguised and when that other person is out of the picture, the handwriting becomes Patsy's.




That's the question? Twenty years later and you believe Patsy was trying to protect her meal ticket or her son? Hmmm...I absolutely agree that things wouldn't have gone to this extreme if Patsy would have faced her problems with courage and fortitude, but my answer is for completely different reasons.

BoldBear,

She picked up the lint on her feet from her bed? You can do better than that.

Depends what you call Lint in my part of world its what comes from bedsheets or the general ooze from fabrics. The presence of Lint does not support JonBenet walking about the basement barefoot?

It is consistent with JonBenet being carried down to the basement and hidden away somewhere.

That's the question? Twenty years later and you believe Patsy was trying to protect her meal ticket or her son? Hmmm...I absolutely agree that things wouldn't have gone to this extreme if Patsy would have faced her problems with courage and fortitude, but my answer is for completely different reasons.

Lets put it this way, a naive interpretation has Patsy attempting to stage herself out of a homicide case, yet at the end of the day she has deposited more forensic evidence than was present at the beginning, resulting in her being directly linked to JonBenet's body.

Some result !

Patsy was staging for someone else, otherwise she would have a ready explanation for the size-12's, etc. Her story about redressing JonBenet when they arrived back from the White's can be seen as a cover for someone who redressed JonBenet!

All those that believe what comes out of Patsy's mouth are going to end up with a PDI, since they think its the only way to reconcile the forensic evidence.

One alternative is to assume Patsy is lying and that she helped stage the wine-cellar crime-scene to assist another family member?

The other salient aspect to the case, is who assaulted Jonbenet intimately? Coroner Meyer suggested it was Digital Penetration and Sexual Contact, that is pretty specific, it goes beyond assault by any old instrument, then apparently his verbatem remarks were confirmed when later that night JonBenet was internally examined by an independent ME, who did not disagree with Meyer's original opinion.

So if the case is PDI, why did Patsy sexually assault JonBenet, lets hear all the PDI theories explain the Coroners findings?

.