EVIDENCE - Pro and Con

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I don't know much about this case at all but the reliance on social media messaging by cops makes me very wary. I'm sure (or maybe just hope) that LE can link the messages to the exact IP and device AND place it in the hands of the correct people at the requisite times.

HE posting on Tumblr (and FWIW, IDK what she posted) for those 20 minutes... I don't know. Something is really nagging at me about this. However I may just be catching a bug hanging out with you all though. :happydance: :rofl:
 
I will respond then. I have to actually get some work done first. :/
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Yes, I'm going by the original timeline posted in the timeline thread.
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Wednesday, Dec 18:
• 1:35am: SM called Heather from a pay phone on 10th Avenue North; the call lasted 4.83 minutes

• 1:44am: From her apartment, Heather called her roommate BW, who was in Florida, and spoke for 2.2 minutes; was crying and upset after the call from SM because she was trying to get her life back together after her affair with him and harassment by TM

• 1:53-2:09am: Ten posts were made to Heather's Tumblr

• 2:29am: Heather tried to call SM back at the pay phone number several times, but no one answered

• 3:16am: Heather tried to call SM's cell phone, no answer

• 3:17am: Heather called SM's cell phone and spoke with someone for 4.15 minutes; Heather's and SM's phones were each at their own homes at this point

• ~3:21am: Heather drove from her apartment to Peachtree Landing
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I believe you are basing your theory on the murder being planned before Sidney placed the payphone call at 1:35. Have you considered the murder may have been planned after that time? You are also basing your theory on a stalking scenario. My explanation of why Sidney failed to take advantage of Heather being alone in the apt. is not based on that theory. To the best of my knowledge, LE has never stated stalking is a part of their theory nor have they ever stated Heather was not in control of her phone before she was murdered. They have also never stated what time they believe Heather was lured out of her apt. Have you considered the murder was planned at some point after the payphone call at 1:35? Have you considered the plan to meet at PTL was first discussed shortly before Heather left for PTL at 3:21. Have you considered the communications via social media. LE is confident Heather drove herself to PTL? All that said, I cannot say LE's version of their PTL theory is no longer valid.

Edited to add:
This is not to say my opinion might not differ from parts of LE's theory they can't prove. I just happen to believe they have pretty solid proof Heather left her apt. at approximately 3:21 and drove herself to PTL.

I totally believe that Heather's disappearance and murder was premeditated by the M's.

I have considered that her murder was possibly a "heat of the moment" situation or "things went too far" but, ultimately that there was always some sort of underlying plan in place.

I truly believe Heather was being "stalked" and it started shortly after TM found out about SM's relationship with Heather. TM's "diary", taking SM's mobile phone from him, going to job sites with him, allegedly having TM followed, the Facebook posts, taking nasty pictures and sending them to Heather, and the whole handcuffed-to-the-bed story reiterate the stalking.

The "coincidences" of the locales in this case are indisputable:
  • Heather grew up on Peachtree Rd. and was very familiar with the landing / The M's live right up the street from the landing
  • Heather makes a purchase at the Kangaroo Express / SM calls Heather from a pay phone at the same Kangaroo
  • A girl with the same exact name as Heather was admitted to the Conway Hospital / The M's are charged with IE directly across the street from the Conway Hospital
  • Heather goes on a date and the last place they stopped was at the Tilted Kilt at Broadway at The Beach / The M's are charged with a second IE in the parking lot next to the Tilted Kilt
  • SM calls Heather from a pay phone located 6 minutes from Heather's apartment
  • Heather's car was found at PTL
I simply think that LE does not have any viable evidence (that would hold up in court) that puts TM and/or SM at Heather's apartment. But, that doesn't mean (to me at least) that neither of them weren't there on that night. Even if SM was serenading Heather from the courtyard at 2 in the morning, there may not necessarily be trails of DNA, witnesses, or CCTV to prove otherwise IMO. But, the fact that SM was a short distance away at that time of the night really makes me believe he was heading in Heather's direction.

As for who had control of what phone... how can we prove one way or another? Yes, SM called Heather from the pay phone at the Kangaroo. He was caught on camera! Yes, Heather called BW in Florida. Phone records show that and BW verified the call. SM's mobile phone evidentially pinged at the M's home (at 3:17AM). But, that does not necessarily mean SM was there or the one who answered the call.

So then, how do we know for sure who used Heather's phone after 2:29AM? We don't IMOO, can we? Obviously someone took control of her phone at some point, correct? We do know this because two people were arrested and charged with taking control of Heather and killing her!

My opinions and theories may not necessarily hold up in a court of law and I suspect LE and the state feels the same way to some extent. They really need to back up whatever evidence they have to place Heather and the M's at PTL to fit neatly so that a jury will believe it beyond a reasonable doubt and deliberate a guilty verdict. That's their goal. So, if the evidence isn't there, any viable scenario or Occam's razor theory doesn't much matter. If LE has social media IM's, GPS data, pings, or any other evidence we don't know about then, great! I truly hope it fits their theory to a "T" because, I'd really hate to see a bad "storyline" created just to fit a small amount of psychical evidence. The rest of the circumstantial stuff is a "cakewalk" IMO.

At this moment in time, I just don't believe Heather drove herself to PTL mainly because I haven't seen the evidence/proof. I'm not technically saying she didn't. But, if she did, I don't think it was alone.
 
It is very apparent to me that Tammy was totally fixated on Heather-- Heather herself recognized Tammy's obsessing. It is not far fetched to think that at least TM had possibly trailed Heather or tried to find out any info she could about her. She wanted Heather to "meet the Mrs." IMO, Tammy was looking forward to a confrontation with HE. And it sounded like she planned on it to happen one way or another. Had she wished Heather harm? I think so. Did she hatch different scenarios in her mind? Most likely. I guess that could be premeditation. I really believe Tammy knew she couldn't stand having competition and the end justified the means. No one was gonna have her Sidney. What role he plays in all this (aside from being a liar and two-timing snake) puzzles me. Did Tammy threaten him to participate, or was he just sick and tired of Tammy ragging on him that he decided Heather had to go. Or was he an accessory after the fact?

So when I first read that Heather's kidnapping/murder occurred in a few short moments at PTL, it definitely didn't sit right with me and many other folks here. To me, TM strikes me as the type who would want to spend much more time confronting Heather, grilling Heather, putting down Heather before she got rid of her. It makes more sense that HE was quickly kidnapped from PTL, but all else happened elsewhere.
 
There is evidence we do not know that may shed light on the LE theory. Perhaps they have surveillance video of Heather leaving her apartment by herself and getting into her car. They would not have needed to disclose that at the original bond hearing because they already had her car there. There is something that makes them believe HE drove herself to PTL and it may be as simple as video of he going there alone.


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I'm not very patient. Can we start the trial on Monday?? I can't imagine the pain the Elvis family continues to live in, and limbo of not knowing, and no funeral as part of the grieving process. My heart felt prayers really go out to families in this situation. They were robbed of their loved one's life. They shouldn't continue to be robbed of their grieving process, or their religious belief in releasing the body after a death.

Moorers... do the right thing and tell where Heather is!!! Eventually someone will find the body and you'll be in much deeper trouble then!!! If you think that no body means no crime, or no trial, well you're wrong!! Many others have been convicted with no body. But that is cruel and evil to continue this pain on the family!!! Think about your own kids. What if this happened to one of them?? Wouldn't you want the right to bury them?? Wouldn't you want to know what happened? Would you want to eventually be able to sleep at night?? Don't you want the nightmares to stop?? The constant worrying about someone else finding Heather?? Please, do the right thing!!!! You can't get forgiveness from God until to admit your sin, and confess them.

IMO!
 
I wonder about the polygraphs, too. You would think that if TM and SM took them and passed, she would have loved posting that all over social media, etc.


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I wonder about that, too. I'm not exactly sure how polygraph information plays out as far as court goes - sooooo.....

I do think, if allowed, that either one of them had taken a polygraph - that at the first bond hearing (or second one for that matter) their attorneys would've said SOMETHING about them being willing to take one and that they passed......or I wonder.....if it's not allowed to be actually brought up at the hearing - if it still wouldn't have been part of the pre-hearing information sent to the judge (and therefore could be 'considered' when placing the bond amount). I find it hard to believe the judge sent them to jail with no bail if there were polygraphs on them saying they were being 100% truthful.

Does that make sense? I hope that some of ya'll that are much smarter than I when it comes to things like polygraphs and the courts can pass on info on this? TIA!
 
I totally believe that Heather's disappearance and murder was premeditated by the M's.

I have considered that her murder was possibly a "heat of the moment" situation or "things went too far" but, ultimately that there was always some sort of underlying plan in place.

I truly believe Heather was being "stalked" and it started shortly after TM found out about SM's relationship with Heather. TM's "diary", taking SM's mobile phone from him, going to job sites with him, allegedly having TM followed, the Facebook posts, taking nasty pictures and sending them to Heather, and the whole handcuffed-to-the-bed story reiterate the stalking.

The "coincidences" of the locales in this case are indisputable:
  • Heather grew up on Peachtree Rd. and was very familiar with the landing / The M's live right up the street from the landing
  • Heather makes a purchase at the Kangaroo Express / SM calls Heather from a pay phone at the same Kangaroo
  • A girl with the same exact name as Heather was admitted to the Conway Hospital / The M's are charged with IE directly across the street from the Conway Hospital
  • Heather goes on a date and the last place they stopped was at the Tilted Kilt at Broadway at The Beach / The M's are charged with a second IE in the parking lot next to the Tilted Kilt
  • SM calls Heather from a pay phone located 6 minutes from Heather's apartment
  • Heather's car was found at PTL
I simply think that LE does not have any viable evidence (that would hold up in court) that puts TM and/or SM at Heather's apartment. But, that doesn't mean (to me at least) that neither of them weren't there on that night. Even if SM was serenading Heather from the courtyard at 2 in the morning, there may not necessarily be trails of DNA, witnesses, or CCTV to prove otherwise IMO. But, the fact that SM was a short distance away at that time of the night really makes me believe he was heading in Heather's direction.

As for who had control of what phone... how can we prove one way or another? Yes, SM called Heather from the pay phone at the Kangaroo. He was caught on camera! Yes, Heather called BW in Florida. Phone records show that and BW verified the call. SM's mobile phone evidentially pinged at the M's home (at 3:17AM). But, that does not necessarily mean SM was there or the one who answered the call.

So then, how do we know for sure who used Heather's phone after 2:29AM? We don't IMOO, can we? Obviously someone took control of her phone at some point, correct? We do know this because two people were arrested and charged with taking control of Heather and killing her!

My opinions and theories may not necessarily hold up in a court of law and I suspect LE and the state feels the same way to some extent. They really need to back up whatever evidence they have to place Heather and the M's at PTL to fit neatly so that a jury will believe it beyond a reasonable doubt and deliberate a guilty verdict. That's their goal. So, if the evidence isn't there, any viable scenario or Occam's razor theory doesn't much matter. If LE has social media IM's, GPS data, pings, or any other evidence we don't know about then, great! I truly hope it fits their theory to a "T" because, I'd really hate to see a bad "storyline" created just to fit a small amount of psychical evidence. The rest of the circumstantial stuff is a "cakewalk" IMO.

At this moment in time, I just don't believe Heather drove herself to PTL mainly because I haven't seen the evidence/proof. I'm not technically saying she didn't. But, if she did, I don't think it was alone.

Thanks for your response PTF. A few questions and your thoughts on a few things.

It was reported the Heather Elvis admitted to Conway Hospital was a different Heather Elvis. I assume you don't believe this is true. Your thoughts on why this was falsely reported.

Why did the Moorer's involve a place so close to home?

You seem to put a lot of stock in statements made by Sidney. He has been accused of murder. We know Sidney has lied.Why take his word on the following?>(taking SM's mobile phone from him, going to job sites with him, the whole handcuffed-to-the-bed story)

You seem to believe LE has proof of a journal found in the Moorer home(just using this as an example) Yet, you question LE's proof that Heather drove herself to PTL. Why do you need see proof that Heather drove herself to PTL, but, you take LE's word they have proof of an actual journal?
 
Thanks for your response PTF. A few questions and your thoughts on a few things.

It was reported the Heather Elvis admitted to Conway Hospital was a different Heather Elvis. I assume you don't believe this is true. Your thoughts on why this was falsely reported.

Why did the Moorer's involve a place so close to home?

You seem to put a lot of stock in statements made by Sidney. He has been accused of murder. We know Sidney has lied.Why take his word on the following?>(taking SM's mobile phone from him, going to job sites with him, the whole handcuffed-to-the-bed story)

You seem to believe LE has proof of a journal found in the Moorer home(just using this as an example) Yet, you question LE's proof that Heather drove herself to PTL. Why do you need see proof that Heather drove herself to PTL, but, you take LE's word they have proof of an actual journal?

Skeptical detectives say they do not believe in coincidences in a homicide investigation. And, multiple coincidences become evidence. I tend to agree with this however, coincidences are inevitable.

In this case, there are a few that I am not buying and the hospital is one of them. I don't want to elaborate on it out of respect for the forum rules so, I'll just keep it at that.

I can't say exactly why the M's involved PTL, being that it was so close to their home, other than the fact that it is so close to their home. Another coincidence perhaps? I believe that PTL was a familiar place to SM and Heather. Whether or not they have met there before is speculative at best. Pretty much everyone from here (Myrtle Beach and Socastee particularly) knows where the landing is. I often venture to Enterprise landing which is closer to my home than Peachtree.

TM did in fact take SM's phone and called the Tilted Kilt Manager (BS). If she did it once then, there is not doubt in my mind she has direct access to his phone and would do it again or hold on to it completely. Just my opinion.

At the first bond hearing, The Solicitor, Donna Elder is the one who painted the picture of TM handcuffing SM to the bed and also accompanying him to work [to keep an eye on him]. It may have come from SM's mouth during police questioning but, the state and the defense are not denying its validity.

So, other than that, my stock in those statements given are vested as to what the prosecutors will be using in court.

LE does have proof of a journal. They collected journals (or, a diary as I mistakingly called it) during the search of the M's. <MSM HERE> I don't believe they dispelled the contents of these journals but, it was speculated that TM kept a record of the E's birth dates and other personal information about them. I have yet to see any proof of the contents of these said journals so, I will not speculate further. I just think the fact that LE specifically called them "journals" is quite telling IMO. They didn't call them notebooks or tablets. They called them journals. And to me, a journal is a place where someone goes to document ongoing events. To log information that may be referred back to or to keep a record of. To stalk IMO.

I'm one to question everything (for the most part). When it comes to a criminal investigation – I am especially a strong believer in being critical and detail oriented. Because, that's ultimately how to solve a case and make it stick in court.

So, what evidence does LE have that Heather drove to PTL @magnolia? I'd be excited to learn this! I've yet to see or hear what evidence they have to support their claim.

Like I've said before and I'll say it again, "Why can't LE just come out and say what they believed happened to Heather from start to finish?" Or, are they making it up as they go? I don't need all the details. Just a simple explanation, that's all.

:twocents:
 
Polygraphs are not allowed to be used or even mentioned in courtrooms. They are not considered valid enough as a science, although police depts do use them as tools to weed through potential suspects and see who might be lying. However, nothing precludes a suspect from announcing themselves or through their lawyer how they did on a polygraph outside of any legal proceeding, hearing, or courtroom, assuming there's no gag order in place. But inside a courtroom...no dice.
 
Why don't police departments and DAs spill all the beans before trials? Because they don't want to taint a potential jury pool, they don't want to try the case "in the media," they want to ensure the process proceeds in a courtroom, without prejudicing any defendant or prejudicing the state. There's a delicate balance between the public's right to know everything and the integrity of the case. The public doesn't have the right to know about evidence until a public hearing or trial and even then the judge decides if something has to be excluded. The police do not owe the public a story or an explanation or a theory.

Police may share some details along the way, but most keep their comments pretty brief in general. Their job is to gather the evidence, investigate the situation, take their gathered evidence to the DA (or Solicitor as it's called in SC) and the DA decides, along with a grand jury oftentimes, if enough evidence to potentially prove a charge has been obtained or not. If yes they get an indictment. If no, then the case stops right there until there is enough evidence to move a case forward.

The process is important to ensure citizens (yes, even the really crappy, evil, slimy, nasty, rude, cheating or jealous ones) who are accused of a crime, have protected rights under the constitution and those rights are maintained, even if the person is someone everyone wants to see burned at the stake 3 times over. U.S. Constitution trumps all.
 
As far as the hospital thing, they said it wasn`t H but, another H. There is another HE in Conway and I believe it was her.
 
Every time I saw the pic of the gas station on 10th - I kept thinking that 'store' in the photo hasn't been there for a long time. It kept bothering me when I'd see people
Post wondering if they'd been in 'that store'. Maybe it was there last December.... I dunno but it's definitely not there now. Grabbed these today on my way to the gym. Should give everyone clear image of what 'behind the dumpster' might mean. Also - on the side street (seaboard) I counted at least 3 security cameras facing the road.l at businesses between 10th & Grissom.
e708ae407f9b85a10edf7c8a433b0424.jpg


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Very eerie seeing the actual payphone that he called her from.... makes that night seem so much more realistic for me, a complete stranger far away, thank you for those Hoppy !!
 
Thanks for the photos and info. I remember the state said something like they couldn't see who SM was with when he made the pay phone call. Made me wonder if there were other cameras that indicated someone was with him, but could not id who, and did another camera capture the vehicle he was there in.
 
I have followed this case form the beginning and that's how I found websleuths. The story the state is proposing that Heather drove to PTL on her own, was killed there, seemed one if less complication and conveniently fit the car, phone locations and the truck video. I believe a killing or abduction could have occurred in that short time span. But like Peter Thomas Fan, I think the case for stalking- pay phone video, IEs, journal, social media posts of TM afterwards are most compelling and my gut tells me very probable.

The other HE mentioned at Conway hospital has always been bothersome because if it was the other HE as stated by LE, I feel for another HE that her name has been brought out-I know it was because of investigation and LE finding out that an HE went to the hospital (I forget the time, the 17th). If it was HE why would LE say it wasn't. Would not have to worry about HIPPA laws with saying she is deceased I don't think. Do have to worry about HIPPA with an HE not deceased and though LE has right to that info to put into the public should have been a no-no. I guess they could say it was another HE if for some reason they wanted to and not be violating HIPPA as they would not be specifically saying what other HE. I believed when they said a different HE, but hmm?
 
Saying it's not the missing HE but a different HE that was at that hospital does not violate HIPAA laws. No information about why the other HE was there was given out by the hospital or LE, only that it was not the HE people were looking for.
 
Thanks for the photos and info. I remember the state said something like they couldn't see who SM was with when he made the pay phone call. Made me wonder if there were other cameras that indicated someone was with him, but could not id who, and did another camera capture the vehicle he was there in.

BBM

I don't recall any mention by the state or MSM of another person with SM during the pay phone call or a vehicle. Not to say this wasn't the case though IMO.
 
BBM

I don't recall any mention by the state or MSM of another person with SM during the pay phone call or a vehicle. Not to say this wasn't the case though IMO.

http://www.lakewyliepilot.com/2014/03/19/2345728/testimony-weaves-tale-of-lives.html

below form the lake wylie pilot link above, copy and pasted but I can't get the link to work. I googled- tammy and sydney moorer bond hearing - and found this the link on the second page and looked at it. Could be wrong but I think this was also said in the first bond hearing video but could not find that video. My tech skills are not too good.

That night

It is not clear who Sidney Moorer was with at 1:35 a.m. Dec. 18 when he made the call from a payphone on 10th Avenue North in Myrtle Beach to Elvis. The young woman was at home after having been on a date that night. Her date later cooperated with police and was cleared in the investigation, authorities said.

Sidney Moorer spoke to Elvis from the payphone for more than four minutes.

May not have been with anybody, may just be something in the media, but it stayed in my mind.
 
http://www.lakewyliepilot.com/2014/03/19/2345728/testimony-weaves-tale-of-lives.html

below form the lake wylie pilot link above, copy and pasted but I can't get the link to work. I googled- tammy and sydney moorer bond hearing - and found this the link on the second page and looked at it. Could be wrong but I think this was also said in the first bond hearing video but could not find that video. My tech skills are not too good.

That night

It is not clear who Sidney Moorer was with at 1:35 a.m. Dec. 18 when he made the call from a payphone on 10th Avenue North in Myrtle Beach to Elvis. The young woman was at home after having been on a date that night. Her date later cooperated with police and was cleared in the investigation, authorities said.

Sidney Moorer spoke to Elvis from the payphone for more than four minutes.

May not have been with anybody, may just be something in the media, but it stayed in my mind.

I just think it's the way Tonya phrased her words. I wouldn't put much weight behind it IMO.

http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/2014/03/18/4104390/testimony-weaves-a-tale-of-how.html
 
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