ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #4

[steelman]

Not sure about this one though. In the 911 call, the mom states that he has been missing for an hour. During the interview, the father states that after 20 minutes of searching for little DeOrr they called 911.

Right, I stated earlier today.............the math doesn't work. "We went on a 10 minute walk.....we searched for 20 minutes............He's been missing for an hour." 10 minutes + 20 minutes= 1 hour. ????????

I attributed this discrepancy from the beginning as just a misjudgement in time, still do. I think this kid wandered off...........and is truly lost, and most likely dead by now. Their "softening" of the time frame was self-preservation.

The interview with the parents was conducted when they were literally exhausted. 3 or 4 days with no sleep and little to eat...........it wears on you. People sit here and dissect and bisect every word they said.........THEY WERE EXHAUSTED, of course they rambled and didn't speak perfectly.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

A very calm Jessica M. states plainly it had been an hour since her son went missing on this 911 call.

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/0...-released-my-2-year-old-son-we-cant-find-him/

 

[ILOKAL]

Thanks ILOKAL for the information on Mountain Lions at post #31. I had gone to do research, however, you are posting much more informative facts than I found.

From the info I read on several sites, my doubts were beginning to fade on a mountain lion. Since they do their hunting from dusk to dawn that wouldn't fit. I didn't read they usually attack children in the day.

One thing that puzzles me is would the searchers not see the footprints of a mountain lion on their first trek into each new grid? Do not know what the earth is made up of in that part of the country.

Of course we don't know the mindset of the searchers, what instructions they were given, etc. Pictures of the area that I have seen look like it was a beautiful balmy day. We don't know the forest floor. Presumably mostly leaves. I doubt the lion would have left prints. They are elusive predators that come and go without notice; they lay in wait, sometimes observing their prey for an hour or more before the sudden, quiet, unannounced attack.

And yes, attacks of children by mountain lions is generally during the day (when children are most often present), but lions also hunt during the day in remote, wilderness areas.

 

[SleuthMom]

Right, I stated earlier today.............the math doesn't work. "We went on a 10 minute walk.....we searched for 20 minutes............He's been missing for an hour." 10 minutes + 20 minutes= 1 hour. ????????

I hope I do not come across as "difficult". Time is crucial in this case. 10 minutes is a very, very short period of time for a lot of the possible scenarios we have been discussing so far. A whole hour is a different story and makes more sense to me. Imo of course.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Actually, there more than likely would be no trace. Cougars only drag their prey because it is large. In the case of 25-30 lbs, dragging would not be necessary. The lion would have pounced, bit, and carried, in this case, IMO.

Yes. There would be a trace especially as you said, "bit and carried". There would be blood and DeOrr's scent at the point of capture. DeOrr's scent would have been sloughing off in the form of skin cells in a struggle with the lion and someone would have most likely heard the baby screaming. I don't see it is possible a lion could attack him and take him off without a single piece of evidence left behind.

 

[Traymar]

Actually, the parents seem well aware of the time throughout the activities of that day. It was mentioned that they didn't leave the campsite after 1pm. That's very specific. Also, when they went exploring it was going on 2pm, and DeOrr was getting ready to take his nap because he always takes his nap around 2pm. These things show an awareness of the time, IMO.

 

[SleuthMom]

Of course we don't know the mindset of the searchers, what instructions they were given, etc. Pictures of the area that I have seen look like it was a beautiful balmy day. We don't know the forest floor. Presumably mostly leaves. I doubt the lion would have left prints. They are elusive predators that come and go without notice; they lay in wait, sometimes observing their prey for an hour or more before the sudden, quiet, unannounced attack.

They had hundreds of professionals searching as well as dogs and very sophisticated equipment. They did not find anything.

As sheriff stated "He said given the proven expertise of the dogs the boy should have been found the first day".

 

[ILOKAL]

Yes. There would be a trace especially as you said, "bit and carried". There would be blood and DeOrr's scent at the point of capture. DeOrr's scent would have been sloughing off in the form of skin cells in a struggle with the lion and someone would have most likely heard the baby screaming. I don't see it is possible a lion could attack him and take him off without a single piece of evidence left behind.

I believe Deorr's scent WAS picked up at the campsite, no? If he was attacked by the lion at the campsite and carried away, where else would his scent be except wherever the lion eventually hid him? I doubt there was a scream as death would have been instant. There would have been no struggle. There would not necessarily be blood left at the point of capture. I respect your opinion so we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Dee10]

Right, I forgot about the heat-sensing equipment. I remember a fire-fighter telling me with that equipment they can spot where someone is in a house or where a squirrel (IIRC) is in the woods. Amazing equipment & a helicopter can cover such a large area.

 

[needtoknow]

Thanks ILOKAL for the information on Mountain Lions at post #31. I had gone to do research, however, you are posting much more informative facts than I found.

From the info I read on several sites, my doubts were beginning to fade on a mountain lion. Since they do their hunting from dusk to dawn that wouldn't fit. I didn't read they usually attack children in the day.

One thing that puzzles me is would the searchers not see the footprints of a mountain lion on their first trek into each new grid? Do not know what the earth is made up of in that part of the country.

The area is very dry. Would probably not see footprints unless near the water.

 

[ILOKAL]

They had hundreds of professionals searching as well as dogs and very sophisticated equipment. They did not find anything.

As sheriff stated "He said given the proven expertise of the dogs the boy should have been found the first day".

Not if a mountain lion took him. They cover a WIDE range and their territories are HUGE! It would be like looking for a grain of salt in a haystack! . They often travel 25 miles while hunting for their next meal.

 

[SleuthMom]

Not if a mountain lion took him. They cover a WIDE range and their territories are HUGE! It would be like looking for a grain of salt in a haystack! . They often travel 25 miles while hunting for their next meal.

I believe there was an expert here who recently posted and he mentioned how rare is to find these animals. I am not convinced. I do not rule it out because I do not think we could rule out anything at this point but again, with ALL the equipment, HUNDREDS of searchers and dogs and nothing? No, doesn't sound feasible to me but of course, who knows!

 

[yllek]

Those in the campsite:

Jessica Mitchell (Mother)

DeOrr Kunz Sr. (Father)

Isaac Reinwand (great-grandfather's friend)

Great-grandfather (name, unknown)

Our baby boy Deorr

I saw in the previous thread that there was some confusion in regards to the grandfathers in this case.

The maternal great-grandfather of little Deorr (Mom Jessica Mitchell's grandfather) was the 70+-year-old on the camping trip. He hasn't spoken publicly at all. He is the one who the parents presumed was watching little Deorr when they left the campsite to explore. He is the one who the sheriff indicated was "cleared" due to his physical and mental health issues. He is reportedly the only one on the camping trip to have known Isaac Reinwand beforehand (for about 5 years; according to the sheriff today).

The paternal grandfather of little Deorr (Dad Deorr Kunz's father) was not at the campsite. He is the one who told People Magazine that little Deorr and little Deorr's parents lived at his house for the last year and a half. He is also the source for "a 4 minute window" during which nobody was keeping an eye on little Deorr before he went missing.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

Actually, the parents seem well aware of the time throughout the activities of that day. It was mentioned that they didn't leave the campsite after 1pm. That's very specific. Also, when they went exploring it was going on 2pm, and DeOrr was getting ready to take his nap because he always takes his nap around 2pm. These things show an awareness of the time, IMO.

Well if it was almost 2 when they went exploring, they were gone for 10 minutes, searched for 20 minutes, and called 911 at 2:28 (time stamp is recorded on the 911 audio) saying he'd been missing for an hour already...then one or more of their reported times is not right.

My point is I don't think they know for sure how long he was actually missing. Nothing is consistent. Great Grandpa thought D was with parents, and parents thought Great Grandpa was watching him, yet also Great Grandpa took his eyes off him for a minute and he vanished. Both scenarios are not possible.

Great Grandpa is so physically and mentally impaired he was immediately ruled out as a suspect or POI. Yet they left a 2 yr old with him without even verifying beyond any doubt who was supposed to be watching the boy? And the friend, IR, was present and watching the child also, yet the child vanished and the parents never even mentioned there was another adult supposedly in charge? More inconsistencies.

I don't know WHAT happened but I sure hope LE got a more coherent version of events than the public did. All this confusion and intentional withholding of info has caused many people to not even be looking for DeOrr. No one's going to look for a child that they don't believe was abducted. And it doesn't help when the missing child info isn't even correct (eye color).

Hopefully this post won't get deleted as victim blaming, because that's not what it is about. It's meant to point out the overall confusion involved in the situation that is not being cleared up by ANY source.

So frustrating.

 

[bluesneakers]

If they don't find him up there and call off the search, what would happen next?

Where are you Deorr?

 

[Floridian]

Not sure if this helps, but, my husband uses drones at work. THEY are used to record anything. Anything you want them to see. You type in coordinates and a iPad controls it and after a certain time it returns home. It's like a Minnie robot that flies. They use them to look at gas wells in the ground, it finds them and it's all recorded and you watch it from ipad as it flies, so u see what it sees at the time it sees it. In other words, wells in the ground are small. Only stick out 2ft and the drone finds them.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

From what I am reading, a mountain lion attacks at the back of the neck and the head area then drags the prey. This lists several children who were attacked and dragged leaving at least drag marks behind (and should also have left a scent to track).

http://www.aws.vcn.com/mountain_lion_fact_sheet.html

While it does mention clothing being found inside a lion after attacking, it doesn't mention items specifically. Common sense would tell me soft clothing would be seen as part of the prey, but a kid with boots that are too big who is kicking and fighting for his life does not seem as likely to keep those on and to have a mountain lion chew them up. Not saying it cannot happen, but unlikely it did...in my opinion.

 

[steelman]

Every person sheds skin cells...every second of the day. So, yes, there was scent..but you have to understand that dogs are trained in different functions and the skin cells deteriorate like any other biological matter.

Think of the skin cells coming off as tiny bubbles (like you blow). If the wind is very calm they settle at your feet, if there is wind, they may drift off a long ways and get scattered. Now let's say your bubbles are pink. Now family members that share the same DNA have different shades of pink as their bubbles. Thousands of bubbles blowing around.

Other people come walking around, many more thousands of blue, green, purple, etc bubbles get added into the mix. So yes, there was scent, but the conditions were probably not optimal for a K9 to find the few pink bubbles among the thousands of other colored bubbles.


The search dogs are only as good as the people handling them. There is lots of room for error here.

 

[darcedarce]

From what I am reading, a mountain lion attacks at the back of the neck and the head area then drags the prey. This lists several children who were attacked and dragged leaving at least drag marks behind (and should also have left a scent to track).

http://www.aws.vcn.com/mountain_lion_fact_sheet.html

While it does mention clothing being found inside a lion after attacking, it doesn't mention items specifically. Common sense would tell me soft clothing would be seen as part of the prey, but a kid with boots that are too big who is kicking and fighting for his life does not seem as likely to keep those on and to have a mountain lion chew them up. Not saying it cannot happen, but unlikely it did...in my opinion.

I completely agree. The odds would be astronomical that the lion attacks 1. Without being seen. 2. Without Deorr uttering a sound 3. Killing him instantly on the first shot (thus no struggle to knock off boots) 4. Carries Deorr off the ground all the to safety. 5. Leaves not a drop of blood behind.

It's just not adding up to me.

 

[bessie]

Not sure about this one though. In the 911 call, the mom states that he has been missing for an hour. During the interview, the father states that after 20 minutes of searching for little DeOrr they called 911.

First of all, when asked how long he was missing, she hesitates. Operator prompts, "An hour?" Mom responds, "Yeah."

Personally, at that point in time, I wouldn't expect the mother to have an exact perception of time, but that's just me.

Secondly, do we know if she was responding to the length of time since she and husband returned to campsite? Or time passed since she'd last seen him? If the latter -- parents gone 10-15 minutes, search about 20 minutes -- it doesn't add up to quite an hour, but in her addled state of mind at the moment, it's not a far-fetched guesstimate. And again, the operator threw it out there.

JMO

Link to mom's 911 call

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/0...-released-my-2-year-old-son-we-cant-find-him/