Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #108

[MizMari]

DBM - duplicate

This is my first time to post but I’ve been following this case since the beginning. I just haven’t had much to add the conversation before.

Yes, it is the same vehicle and is at the trailhead. Check out this video around the 57 sec mark to see the crime scene tape near the Monon High Bridge Trail sign. Police seek man photographed in area where slain Indiana teens had been hiking

 

[TL4S]

This is my first time to post but I’ve been following this case since the beginning. I just haven’t had much to add the conversation before.

Yes, it is the same vehicle and is at the trailhead. Check out this video around the 57 sec mark to see the crime scene tape near the Monon High Bridge Trail sign. Police seek man photographed in area where slain Indiana teens had been hiking

That's fantastic. One less thing to ponder. Nice first post!

 

[tresir2012]

This is my first time to post but I’ve been following this case since the beginning. I just haven’t had much to add the conversation before.

Yes, it is the same vehicle and is at the trailhead. Check out this video around the 57 sec mark to see the crime scene tape near the Monon High Bridge Trail sign. Police seek man photographed in area where slain Indiana teens had been hiking

Thanks for that and welcome. You have to be quick to see it but you're correct.

ETA I have posted the link in the media thread also.

 

[JnRyan]

@TL4S
"And as far as where there was police tape, I only have MSM pictures to go by. There very well could have been more areas taped off, including near the creek banks"

View attachment 192236

Bringing your post over from the last thread. The photo above is from MSM, and some here think it depicts the opposite side of the creek from where the girls were found. You can see LE vehicles on the private road that leads to a resident's home.

I've seen numerous photos showing the area on the north side of the creek with crime scene tape, but I don't recall a single one showing crime scene tape on the other side. I would think that unless the bank was rocky or contained gravel, there would be tracks in the mud on the other side and therefore LE would have taped that off as well. Yet I've never seen photos of it or mention of it. I believe at least one couple went to the end of the bridge and down to the south side of the creek and put it on YouTube not long after the murders. There was no crime scene tape seen on the south side.
I've often wondered about that aspect. LE doesn't know where they entered the creek?

 

[TL4S]

I've seen numerous photos showing the area on the north side of the creek with crime scene tape, but I don't recall a single one showing crime scene tape on the other side. I would think that unless the bank was rocky or contained gravel, there would be tracks in the mud on the other side and therefore LE would have taped that off as well. Yet I've never seen photos of it or mention of it. I believe at least one couple went to the end of the bridge and down to the south side of the creek and put it on YouTube not long after the murders. There was no crime scene tape seen on the south side.
I've often wondered about that aspect. LE doesn't know where they entered the creek?

Or there was no crime on the south side of the creek?

 

[tresir2012]

This is the part in Sgt Holeman's August '17 interview where he is asked about the girls getting from the bridge to where they were found. His answer is taken to mean the girls crossed the creek. See what you think.


A: When you walked down and I walked through, that was private property right where the bodies were found. Looking at it logistically from where they were on the bridge and to where their bodies were found, I know we talked about the terrain in the past. I know it's not an easy thing to navigate. Usually you might have to be familiar with the area. I mean, would it have been difficult for the girls to from where they were on the bridge to where they were found?

H: [10:49] Yeah. Absolutely. I think it would be difficult, obviously. They have to go through some pretty steep terrain in a wooded area, sticker bushes and things like that, so it's uh ... and then to cross the creek. The creek, and obviously it's February, it's probably not the warmest . The weather was a warm day that day, but still the water temperature is probably cooler than the air temperature. So yeah, it would have been difficult for .... I mean, I don't think anybody, say on a walk, would walk that way.


I think this is the only place it is mentioned and he is saying it would be difficult. I'm not sure he is saying they did it. I'm 50/50 on it.

 

[TL4S]

This is the part in Sgt Holeman's August '17 interview where he is asked about the girls getting from the bridge to where they were found. His answer is taken to mean the girls crossed the creek. See what you think.


A: When you walked down and I walked through, that was private property right where the bodies were found. Looking at it logistically from where they were on the bridge and to where their bodies were found, I know we talked about the terrain in the past. I know it's not an easy thing to navigate. Usually you might have to be familiar with the area. I mean, would it have been difficult for the girls to from where they were on the bridge to where they were found?

H: [10:49] Yeah. Absolutely. I think it would be difficult, obviously. They have to go through some pretty steep terrain in a wooded area, sticker bushes and things like that, so it's uh ... and then to cross the creek. The creek, and obviously it's February, it's probably not the warmest . The weather was a warm day that day, but still the water temperature is probably cooler than the air temperature. So yeah, it would have been difficult for .... I mean, I don't think anybody, say on a walk, would walk that way.

You could, in all honesty, read that as a hypothetical situation. But there was another source linked quite awhile back. The interviewer flat out asked if the girls crossed the creek, and the LEO's answer was, "yes." I don't recall who posted that.

 

[tresir2012]

You could, in all honesty, read that as a hypothetical situation. But there was another source linked quite awhile back. The interviewer flat out asked if the girls crossed the creek, and the LEO's answer was, "yes." I don't recall who posted that.

If anyone has an additional LE source for crossing the creek please post it. TIA.

Also, now what about the crime scene tape at the drop off point? That's new isn't it? Could his vehicle have been there or a witness saw him there?

 

[Cutiekitty]

If anyone has an additional LE source for crossing the creek please post it. TIA.

Also, now what about the crime scene tape at the drop off point? That's new isn't it? Could his vehicle have been there or a witness saw him there?

I’d like to see that too. Ive read and listened to that interview many times and felt that he wasn’t saying that is what happened necessarily, but more of a possibility. His response was reference the reporter asking about the difficulty of going from the end of the bridge to where they were found. The most direct path would be to go down the hill, through the woods with stickers and overgrowth and across a cold creek. I want to say it’s .15 miles from the end of the bridge to the scene so a little over 1/2 a track lap in the outside lane. I actually think he’s laying out why that wouldn’t be the optimal path even though it’s the most direct since he acknowledges the difficulty and provides examples.

I go back and forth about the creek crossing. If they did cross it I don’t think it was part of BGs master plan and maybe they got away from him and ran that direction.

LE is going to secure all entrances and exits to the scene, or they should, once they determine a homicide took place. They’d need to preserve evidence and they wouldn’t exactly know the sequence of events initially.

 

[JnRyan]

Or there was no crime on the south side of the creek?

I'm thinking - IF there was no crime scene tape on the other side - they could not find any evidence such as tracks in the mud on the bank? No evidence, therefore no need to tape it off? OR the searchers went through the south side of the creek on the 13th and/or the 14th and contaminated that area. Because at that point they were searching for missing girls and foul play was not expected. In fact, until LE went through Liberty's phone and saw the video, LE might have thought they walked there from the trails on the north side of the creek. That is, LE didn't know they had crossed the creek considering the weather and the water temps.

 

[Cutiekitty]

I'm thinking - IF there was no crime scene tape on the other side - they could not find any evidence such as tracks in the mud on the bank? No evidence, therefore no need to tape it off? OR the searchers went through the south side of the creek on the 13th and/or the 14th and contaminated that area. Because at that point they were searching for missing girls and foul play was not expected. In fact, until LE went through Liberty's phone and saw the video, LE might have thought they walked there from the trails on the north side of the creek. That is, LE didn't know they had crossed the creek considering the weather and the water temps.

I’d be surprised if the south side of the bridge didn’t have crime scene tape up or was cordoned off in some way regardless of whether the girls went that way or not. LE would want to control all points of access to the scene and that would be one of them. Searchers may have destroyed evidence, but LE would still consider the entire area part of the crime scene until they determined it wasn’t. The crime scene techs would make that determination and they wouldn’t dismiss an area because it might’ve been contaminated.

 

[TL4S]

If anyone has an additional LE source for crossing the creek please post it. TIA.

Also, now what about the crime scene tape at the drop off point? That's new isn't it? Could his vehicle have been there or a witness saw him there?

The post was a transcribed interview, with quotes. Hope somebody remembers where that is.

 

[tresir2012]

There is a picture of the south end of the bridge with the road going under it and there is some crime scene tape visible. It is in the link I posted on page 1 I think. I'll come back and add post number.

ETA it is post 20 bottom of page 1. The last but one pic in the article.

 

[JnRyan]

I went back through previous articles and found that it was stated that the task force had AS MANY as 100 investigators through the first month of the investigation. (I had thought it was more than that in the beginning.)

Cops 'scaling back' manpower in Indiana double murder but 'not giving up'

After a month it was stated that they dropped back to 20-30. Still, with upwards of 45000 to 46000 tips, the management of that volume of tips is probably something even the FBI is not experienced with handling. IF the tip LE is looking for is ALREADY in there, that tip is a needle in a proverbial haystack. I also wonder how LE tracks those tips - maybe with a database software like MS Access? They could use it to search for key words. That way they can go back and recheck an alibi much quicker.

 

[tresir2012]

The post was a transcribed interview, with quotes. Hope somebody remembers where that is.

I think you are thinking of the one I just quoted from. If it is that one it is in the media thread on page 38 . I am looking for a quote other than from that interview. I don't think there is one but could be I just haven't seen it.

 

[TL4S]

I think you are thinking of the one I just quoted from. If it is that one it is in the media thread on page 38 . I am looking for a quote other than from that interview. I don't think there is one but could be I just haven't seen it.

You're right. I finally found the post I was referring to. In the post it was stated as if Holeman answered "yes" to an actual question, but the link ended up being that same interview.

 

[sunshineray]

I don't know how to reply to a pist on a closed thread so I copy/pasted.

tresir2012:
I think there is something taken out between Guys.......down the hill.

Could be
Guys, it's private land, now get DTH
Guys, here's my badge, now get DTH
Guys, I've got a gun, so get DTH
Guys, wtf are you doing here, get DTH

MOO

tresir2012, Do you know if the bridge is actually off limits for hikers but people just cross it anyway? It seems like a lawsuit waiting to happen for the town/state, whomever is responsible for the trails there.

I ask because I was thinking about the senario of BG saying to the girls Guys, you know you're not supposed to be on that bridge, it's too dangerous... But we have to meet my Dad on the other side...Well you're just going to have to cross the creek at the sandbar upstream a little and pick up the trail on the other side, not cross that bridge again. Come on guys, down the hill, I'll show you.

The way he says "Guys" sounds very authortative to me and "down the hill" is almost off-handedly said.

BG could have planned not to cross the creek but once down there the girls got spooked and tried to run.

 

[Jax49]

I don't know how to reply to a pist on a closed thread so I copy/pasted.

tresir2012:
I think there is something taken out between Guys.......down the hill.

Could be
Guys, it's private land, now get DTH
Guys, here's my badge, now get DTH
Guys, I've got a gun, so get DTH
Guys, wtf are you doing here, get DTH

MOO

tresir2012, Do you know if the bridge is actually off limits for hikers but people just cross it anyway? It seems like a lawsuit waiting to happen for the town/state, whomever is responsible for the trails there.

I ask because I was thinking about the senario of BG saying to the girls Guys, you know you're not supposed to be on that bridge, it's too dangerous... But we have to meet my Dad on the other side...Well you're just going to have to cross the creek at the sandbar upstream a little and pick up the trail on the other side, not cross that bridge again. Come on guys, down the hill, I'll show you.

The way he says "Guys" sounds very authortative to me and "down the hill" is almost off-handedly said.

BG could have planned not to cross the creek but once down there the girls got spooked and tried to run.

The bridge was officially off limits but apparently people crossed it frequently. moo

 

[rosesfromangels]

I don't know how to reply to a pist on a closed thread so I copy/pasted.

tresir2012:
I think there is something taken out between Guys.......down the hill.

Could be
Guys, it's private land, now get DTH
Guys, here's my badge, now get DTH
Guys, I've got a gun, so get DTH
Guys, wtf are you doing here, get DTH

MOO

tresir2012, Do you know if the bridge is actually off limits for hikers but people just cross it anyway? It seems like a lawsuit waiting to happen for the town/state, whomever is responsible for the trails there.

I ask because I was thinking about the senario of BG saying to the girls Guys, you know you're not supposed to be on that bridge, it's too dangerous... But we have to meet my Dad on the other side...Well you're just going to have to cross the creek at the sandbar upstream a little and pick up the trail on the other side, not cross that bridge again. Come on guys, down the hill, I'll show you.

The way he says "Guys" sounds very authortative to me and "down the hill" is almost off-handedly said.

BG could have planned not to cross the creek but once down there the girls got spooked and tried to run.

Any of your suggestions are certainly possibilities. *If* the audio was spliced between “guys”, and “down the hill”, it was likely to remove the voices of the girls, and isolate the Perp’s voice. That’s a big *if*. We don’t know. I’m just focused on the little we do know, and not permitting my amateur speculations to wander too far off LE instructions.

Such a profoundly sad and disturbing case. Unfortunately, we have many just as sad on the array of threads on the forum. It’s really hard to understand the cruelty and depravity. People always say it’s mental illness, but I believe it’s mostly soul sickness.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[tresir2012]

I don't know how to reply to a pist on a closed thread so I copy/pasted.

tresir2012:
I think there is something taken out between Guys.......down the hill.

Could be
Guys, it's private land, now get DTH
Guys, here's my badge, now get DTH
Guys, I've got a gun, so get DTH
Guys, wtf are you doing here, get DTH

MOO

tresir2012, Do you know if the bridge is actually off limits for hikers but people just cross it anyway? It seems like a lawsuit waiting to happen for the town/state, whomever is responsible for the trails there.

I ask because I was thinking about the senario of BG saying to the girls Guys, you know you're not supposed to be on that bridge, it's too dangerous... But we have to meet my Dad on the other side...Well you're just going to have to cross the creek at the sandbar upstream a little and pick up the trail on the other side, not cross that bridge again. Come on guys, down the hill, I'll show you.

The way he says "Guys" sounds very authortative to me and "down the hill" is almost off-handedly said.

BG could have planned not to cross the creek but once down there the girls got spooked and tried to run.

At that time it was owned by CSX and the land continuing on afterwards. I think it may have been passed back to the landowners further on. The bridge has now been passed on to Indiana Landmarks, I believe. Don't know about permissions or anything but as it was an old railway right of way, I presume the public were allowed on it and the right may have continued after the trains ceased to run. @mtnlites may have more exact local knowledge . I like your scenario though. MOO.

 

[MistyWaters]

I went back through previous articles and found that it was stated that the task force had AS MANY as 100 investigators through the first month of the investigation. (I had thought it was more than that in the beginning.)

Cops 'scaling back' manpower in Indiana double murder but 'not giving up'

After a month it was stated that they dropped back to 20-30. Still, with upwards of 45000 to 46000 tips, the management of that volume of tips is probably something even the FBI is not experienced with handling. IF the tip LE is looking for is ALREADY in there, that tip is a needle in a proverbial haystack. I also wonder how LE tracks those tips - maybe with a database software like MS Access? They could use it to search for key words. That way they can go back and recheck an alibi much quicker.

Tips are apparently tracked through a FBI program known as “Pyramid”.

“Every tip received about Libby and Abby’s murders gets entered into the FBI system called “Pyramid.” That system stores information like names, descriptions and motives so it can be cross-referenced with other tips....”

....But detectives aren’t just looking comparing those tips to other tip-line ones to find potential leads, they also spend a significant amount of time analyzing crimes in other cities across the country to find a possible connection.....”

Delphi investigator: We wont leave any stone unturned