Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #122

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I politely disagree. I think ISP Carter's emotions were involved. Remember he'd just told the same info to the families only moments before the PC started. I'm sure their reactions were upset and confused. Some of his language may have happened spontaneously because he was still bothered by those interactions with family. I believe his calling out of the killer was absolutely planned. IMO

I thought he looked like a man who was only holding himself together with great difficulty--like something he had seen or heard before he took the microphone had really shocked him. Maybe it was just speaking to the families and seeing how much pain there was. Yeah, you don't get emotionally involved--but with a case involving two young girls, how does anybody with a heart avoid it?
 
I'm just irritated with myself. I'm sorry I opened that can of worms, because it led too many people astray. It isn't the first time I screwed up like that, either. There must be a better way of doing this, my apologies to all of you.

No reason to be irritated with yourself at all. I think everyone who became captivated by Abby and Libby by following this case is becoming antsy in hopes progress is happening toward an arrest.
 
you guys, I am currently reading a book about some murders that happened in Australia. It's called The Frankston Murders: 25 Years On. this book is extremely shocking. I have read possibly every good true crime book there is and this one is exceptionally candid.

the thing about these murders is that as totally shocking as they were in the level of violence that was done, it it really shows the process of the killer's mental cycle and preparation...for instance by the time he murders his last victim he has actually prepared by cutting holes in a fence so he can move the body away from the actual spot of the murder in order to destroy evidence.

the other thing this shows is how the serial killer operates, in this case the killer is a 21/22 year old male. he goes to an area, he already knows what he wants to do and he waits for a victim to come along. he already knows what he wants to do. he has a fake gun, he has a knife, he has a strap in order to strangle.

He is big and strong and easily kills his victims.

he moves very fast.

mOO
 
Also I wanted to add that this killer also takes his victims a short distance away from the first encounter. He takes them to an area nearby and out of the sightline where there is the cover of trees near the back of a tennis court, near a fence on a nearby
ranch.
 
The drone photos are excellent. One of the best things I've seen in a long time in regard to this case. They should be part of the videos thread.

Those photos are the best depiction of how wide open Hoosier Heartland Highway is, regardless of the Lafayette direction or the Logansport direction from Delphi. That aspect stunned me before I got within 15 miles of Delphi. I kept repeating to myself, "He was long gone." As you can see from those drone photos there is nothing near the highway like homes or convenience stores or gas stations or anything else. Mile after mile. Wide open spaces. No threat of stoppages. Really the only opportunity to capture something would have been a faraway view from one of those buildings near Freedom Bridge, or cameras on Freedom Bridge itself. Those do not exist, or did not exist in February 2017. I'm sure Bridge Guy checked that beforehand.

Also, Falling Down pointed out recently in this thread that Bridge Guy had to get the girls down the hill, and once they were down the hill they were essentially trapped. Exactly correct. It feels like a different world down there. You might scream but there's no guarantee anyone will hear, let alone react anytime soon. I felt like I could have screamed at the top of my lungs and I'd be waiting 15 minutes for anyone to react. Where are they going to come from?

Once down the hill the only escape route that doesn't require a considerable obstacle is the narrow passageway back underneath the bridge. Everything else is either severely uphill or across the creek. Here is one photo I took while walking toward Deer Creek. I wanted to demonstrate how steep the hill is and also that it is not square. It curves around, essentially boxing you in even more. The home atop the ridge would be up to the far right of this photo. The girls could have run there easily atop the bridge. Once down below it is exponentially more difficult. The likely route to Deer Creek is angling left from this photo, maybe 30 degrees.

Imgur

Heck, I'll include a second one. This is more the direct route to the creek. It's possible they may have angled somewhat left of this, given more open spaced in February than I saw in November. The hill from the prior photo is visible at top right. It would be 15 yards to your right during this fateful walk:

Imgur

If I had to guess I'd say Bridge Guy remained to the girls' left as they walked toward the creek, solely to keep them furthest away from their best escape direction.

Once you go "down the hill", there's no going back up it. Literally.

In all the sleuth and what have you videos of the spot where they were forced down that hill/berm, I've never seen anyone attempt to walk up it.

The girls were caught by surprise at the end of the bridge, with their only "escape" being a run through somewhat-dense vegetation into the wooded area beyond the SE end of the bridge, the former railroad right-of-way. MOO, BG grabbed one of the girls and subdued her, which might explain why we have audio of the initial abduction. Even in a pocket or in Libby's hand, the voice of the killer could have been picked up.

Another hunch I have about the abduction is LE has a lot more audio, note they released "Guys...", two years after the murders. Gee, what was happening when he said that? Right after? What else was said? What orders were given?

I'm of the opinion there's a gap in our timeline, here, for the audio:

1. "Guys..." or "Guys?...", followed by him grabbing and subduing one of them, maybe tying them together, etc.

"Guys", he gets their attention while Libby's phone is comfortably held in her hand.

2. He orders them "...down the hill...". This part of the audio no doubt was terribly garbled, and had to be cleaned up by audio experts. Was the phone more firmly clutched in Libby's hand, inside a pocket maybe, or ??? There may have been a fairly decent amount of time between "Guys", which sounds near crystal-clear, to "down the hill", which sounds a little more distant, and definitely garbled. Many seconds? Half a minute? A lot was happening in a short period of time.

You're in the gorge, now. Trapped. Your choices on that road/driveway are to go either way on it, or further down into the gorge down another incline, to the flat area.

But you're still stuck in the gorge. In this specific case, maybe even tied to your friend.

The section of driveway under the SE end of the bridge has a dip to it. So either way on that driveway, at some point you're going up hill, either to the house, or C.R. 625.

Up hill is a barrier and slows people down, especially people in an unfamiliar area where they may not know where up hill leads, or can't see where it leads. You can't see the house, any house, from that spot in the gorge. They could see it when they crossed the creek if they'd turned their heads to the right, but go ahead and scream. Nobody's home. They had to walk approximately 450 feet or more to the edge of the creek, at that spot BG already has lots of cover and concealment, to use a term we used in the USMC.

BG knew nobody was home. How did he know this? Did he know the owner is a snowbird? Did he know the routines of the family member or members who would stop by to check on the place?

BG also knew the terrain. People could have been there many times beforehand, but never gotten used to the terrain within the gorge. IMO he knew general distances, times to walk them, etc. Difficulty. What kind of foot wear to wear. Indications from witnesses during the search and Libby's sister show that one of Libby's shoes came off, my guess would be the suction of the muck on the north side of Deer Creek pulled the shoe off.

BG's shoe or boot never came off, not the entire time he was out there that day. BG had it all planned out, nothing would stop him from murdering that day.

From "down the hill", at that very spot, the girls could have looked around and been disoriented and had no idea where they were. It's a completely different world than on top of a bridge 30-60+ feet up. IMO they most likely had never touched that spot, like most people who have been to Monon High Bridge and walked across it. Walked across it for years. You might walk across it for many years, despite it being private property and hazardous, but you get to the end, turn around, and go back. No reason to go down the hill, and besides, once you go down it, now you have to go back up it, and back across the bridge.

Why? It's private property down there, and besides, what is there to do once you get down that hill?

Who, as a perp, would know this? Someone who has been there before many times, and has observed people walking across the bridge, and walking the trails. Every serial killer I've studied, studies his or her prey, or just people in general, looking for people to victimize. They also look for what else?

Others in the general area, and what their typical behavior entails. Anyone who looks like a LEO or could "play the part", people who could be armed/could defend themselves, and other people who might "get in the way" of their fantasy or fantasies.
This guy had it all planned out, MOO only I bet he planned it months in advance, not hours, days, or even weeks beforehand. Months.

I had to bend my head around the bends in the creek early in the case, to get a feel for the area and how those bends probably helped our perp. The vegetation along the creek, combined with the bends, the 'blurred background' one would see in a wooded area with hills, or a valley/gorge, etc., offer perfect concealment. One cannot see the CS from the bridge, even in February. He planned all that out.

He planned it well beforehand, then he came back.

Why did he come back? The elements of that gorge, and the fact that IN 25, which opened in 2014, offered a quick escape route away from that immediate area, and he didn't have to drive past busy, open businesses and other places where people would have seen him driving by, turning a corner, etc. Andersons wasn't even open, and they have lots of surveillance at that terminal complex when they're busy.

JMO
 
As you’re familiar with the area, any guesses as to what “certain things” Sheriff Leazenby might be referring to?

BBM
“Leazenby wouldn't discuss the evidence or details of the investigation, but said "our investigators still have things they're following, whether it's new information or going back and looking at certain pieces from the past."

The sheriff said he thinks the killer has a connection to Delphi, "whether it's an individual that previously lived in our community and knows the area where the girls were located very well, or possibly is still in our community."

Carter also believes the killer has a connection to Delphi, and ABC News contributor and former FBI agent Brad Garrett agrees, noting that the hiking trail is probably too remote to attract outsiders.

"Unless someone absolutely somehow studied that [trail] in great depth, they would not know specifically where certain things were," added the sheriff.

'Epitome of evil': Delphi double murder still a mystery 3 years later

The Google maps app on my phone got flaky where the turn off is from IN 25 southbound, to C.R. 300 on the west side of 25, right after you pass under the Freedom Bridge.

I found in recent times that one big reason why it flaked out is Street View in that area has not been updated since 2008, 6 years before the highway was run through there. I encourage folks to check it for themselves, it's kinda freaky. Street View has not been updated to show the new alignments for the roads to the west of the highway, which are now Old IN 25, C.R. 300, and Samuel Miltory Road. On Street Vuew you can follow a section of Old 25 which no longer exists as a road, that freaked me out a little when i found it last year.

Translated: I was right by the turnoff when I figured I had to use it to get off the highway, Google maps did not alert me on my phone. Granted, I'd studied maps of that area for months previous to that day, but as we all know until you get to an unfamiliar place, you don't know how to navigate it.

I almost missed the turn.

Who didn't miss their turn on Feb. 13th, 2017, assuming they used IN 25? IN 25 would have been a near-perfect way to get away from there for our perp, and according to LE it sounds like he parked at the CPS building, mere feet from the highway.

"Unless someone absolutely somehow studied that [trail] in great depth, they would not know specifically where certain things were," added the sheriff.

I agree 100% with Sheriff Leazenby.

BG had to know how to get there, where to park, and he had to know that gorge.

JMO
 
Sorry I'm so far back in the thread that I don't know where this will land.

I keep reading posts talking about the possibility again of BG trying to order the girls down the hill to the road where his car was parked. In watching all of GH and other videos of people crossing the bridge I remembered seeing a road under the bridge. I also remember looking at the google map and seeing where BG could have driven down the dirt road to the bridge and thought that could be how he avoided anyone seeing him.

To clear my head, I need to know if the driveway to the homeowner was at the end of the bridge where you step off of the bridge or does it actually go under the lower end of the bridge?
 
I vaguely remember a discussion here early on around whether the ISP were able to get the cell pings from any phones in the area or not. I can’t remember whether it was done and of no help to the investigation or if they weren’t able to get that data.

I’m in the UK and we have cameras all over the place that live stream traffic flow on motorways and automatic number plate readers that auto check cars for road tax (I think anyway). Given the discussion about the highway closest to Delphi, were there traffic cameras on the exits or along the road that would record footage of vehicles/ number plates etc? Do you think the ISP were able to view them or cross reference vehicles in that time frame? Would they need a special warrant for that or would the video not be archived for long enough?

Just wondering if they had access and were able to do that, it would give them a clue as to whether the BG left the area via that route, or if he was staying locally.

Do you think it’s likely they have already spoken to the BG during the investigation?
 
The Google maps app on my phone got flaky where the turn off is from IN 25 southbound, to C.R. 300 on the west side of 25, right after you pass under the Freedom Bridge.

I found in recent times that one big reason why it flaked out is Street View in that area has not been updated since 2008, 6 years before the highway was run through there. I encourage folks to check it for themselves, it's kinda freaky. Street View has not been updated to show the new alignments for the roads to the west of the highway, which are now Old IN 25, C.R. 300, and Samuel Miltory Road. On Street Vuew you can follow a section of Old 25 which no longer exists as a road, that freaked me out a little when i found it last year.

Translated: I was right by the turnoff when I figured I had to use it to get off the highway, Google maps did not alert me on my phone. Granted, I'd studied maps of that area for months previous to that day, but as we all know until you get to an unfamiliar place, you don't know how to navigate it.


I almost missed the turn.

Who didn't miss their turn on Feb. 13th, 2017, assuming they used IN 25? IN 25 would have been a near-perfect way to get away from there for our perp, and according to LE it sounds like he parked at the CPS building, mere feet from the highway.



I agree 100% with Sheriff Leazenby.

BG had to know how to get there, where to park, and he had to know that gorge.

JMO

Aha! That explains why I was having trouble figuring out the street view vs. other views of that area on Google maps! Yes, that's an interesting point re. BG's familiarity (or not) with the street entrances/exits.
 
Sorry I'm so far back in the thread that I don't know where this will land.

I keep reading posts talking about the possibility again of BG trying to order the girls down the hill to the road where his car was parked. In watching all of GH and other videos of people crossing the bridge I remembered seeing a road under the bridge. I also remember looking at the google map and seeing where BG could have driven down the dirt road to the bridge and thought that could be how he avoided anyone seeing him.

To clear my head, I need to know if the driveway to the homeowner was at the end of the bridge where you step off of the bridge or does it actually go under the lower end of the bridge?

It sure looks like the dirt road/driveway goes directly under the very end of the bridge. It can be seen at about 20:00 in this video.
ETA - a closeup, looking down to the road at about 17:00.

 
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Aha! That explains why I was having trouble figuring out the street view vs. other views of that area on Google maps! Yes, that's an interesting point re. BG's familiarity (or not) with the street entrances/exits.

Yes ;-)

It took me 2.5 years of wondering about it, to figure it out. I figured it was just a glitch, until I checked...

Street View views of that specific area exist for the "new" IN 25, Samuel Milroy Rd., Old IN 25/Old 25 (was IN 25 until 2014), and a short stretch of C.R. 300 right in that area. They are terribly outdated, in fact some of the stretches of road physically no longer exist.

This was a "eureka!" moment for me last Fall, once that became apparent to me, the difficulty my phone app from Google had in finding the turnoff for C.R, 300 made perfect sense. I'd used grid/GPS coordinates to get to the bridge area from Fort Wayne where I live, oh it got me to the general area just fine. The app couldn't tell me where to turn off of IN 25 for C.R. 300.

At 65-70 mph, I saw the big water tower that says "D E L P H I" in big letters, however I could not see a town, and then the road grade dips and curves towards the Freedom Bridge, so I was distracted a little by that. It wasn't until I was almost at the turn off that I slammed on the brakes for it, again the app didn't tell me anything.

When I'd tried to explain the difficulty of trying to find the bridge area/C.R. 300 from IN 25, it was a little difficult for me to explain what had happened and why. The lack of road signage on 25, combined with the lack of any signs along C.R. 300 indicating anything is really there, make it a challenge. I'd studied maps and YouTube videos for months, and still nearly missed the turnoff, and then nearly missed the spot where the girls were dropped off.

Then the app didn't tell me where to go. It was baffling to me, but makes sense, now. Also, there's no Street View for C.R. 300 under and then east of IN 25. So there's no real data you can use from Google to take you right to where the girls were dropped off, using the app.

Putting it all together, I can see why LE are insistent that BG knows the area in question. You have to know how to get to it, then he had to know what to do once he got there. Like he'd been there before.

Maybe many times before.

JMO
 
Aha! That explains why I was having trouble figuring out the street view vs. other views of that area on Google maps! Yes, that's an interesting point re. BG's familiarity (or not) with the street entrances/exits.

Somewhere in Google maps, I don't know if it's only street view, you can click on the page somewhere and it will show you the same house/street/park in various years. I did it by accident and saw the same house over a period of over five years, but when I attempted to do it somewhere else I couldn't get it to work.
So if people have only seen recent maps, maybe they can get it to go back to that time frame.
You may already know this, if so, apologies. I only recently discovered it.
 
It's an interesting notion of there being even more than two perps involved. I'm curious as to what kinda of senario do you think would have caused Libby to lose her shoe, if there were multiple people involved in getting them from point A, the bridge, to point B, the crime scene across the creek? It's those two bits of information that we know of that lend credence to less help, fewer or just one killer. IMO

I still think Libby left her shoe as a clue that she and Abby had been taken. She may have kicked it off or threw it. She was in that forensic class so she knew that any clue found could be useful in solving the case. The video. The audio. Libby was a very smart girl.
 
This are a couple snippets from the US Dept of Justice, Juvenile Justice Bulletin that I thought might be worth mentioning —

“Kidnaping occurs whenever a person is taken or detained against his or her will and includes hostage situations, whether or not the victim is moved.”

“Stranger kidnaping victimizes more females than males, occurs primarily at outdoor locations, victimizes both teenagers and school-age children, is associated with sexual assaults in the case of girl victims and robberies in the case of boy victims (although not exclusively so), and is the type of kidnaping most likely to involve the use of a firearm.”
https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/181161.pdf
 
This are a couple snippets from the US Dept of Justice, Juvenile Justice Bulletin that I thought might be worth mentioning —

“Kidnaping occurs whenever a person is taken or detained against his or her will and includes hostage situations, whether or not the victim is moved.”

“Stranger kidnaping victimizes more females than males, occurs primarily at outdoor locations, victimizes both teenagers and school-age children, is associated with sexual assaults in the case of girl victims and robberies in the case of boy victims (although not exclusively so), and is the type of kidnaping most likely to involve the use of a firearm.”
https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/181161.pdf

Very interesting information. Thanks for sharing!
 
I've been following this thread for a long time-I have to ask-I always taught my son that if someone ever tried to grab him, get him in a car, etc.-to scream like Hell and run fast. Also if they do grab you-start kicking as hard as you can. This is what I was taught-never go willingly. Is this not what other people have learned?
 
Yes it’s all about name recognition I suppose and Carter certainly has made a lot of an effort to get his out there.

Even though I thought Jeff Ashton made an utterly meagre showing in an attempt to prosecute Casey Anthony, instead the jury was blamed, and he went on to defeat his boss and was elected State Attorney. I notice he’s now been elected as a Judge. So his failure to prosecute didn’t set his career back at all but he did become known.

In this case had there been an arrest, I imagine public attention would’ve already shifted from Carter to the Prosector or as you mention, an officer directly responsible for making an arrest. Just my observation, how ironic it is that because this Delphi case hasn’t been solved, the public fixation has still placed Carter in a sort of quasi-hero role.

This is because Indiana is electing him. And maybe Indiana is simply thankful to him for dragging their state and Delphi, the farmer’s corner, into the limelight.

Although come to think of it, these are two women, Kelsi and Becky, who were energetic and proactive and have not been allowing this case to go dry. I’d credit them way more for it than DC.
 
logic
Your logic seems very flawed to me. The "people around" aren't privy to the details of the investigation and wouldn't know one way or the other what the motive was. Based on comments by LE about there being signatures, the most was almost certainly sexual, regardless of whether sexual assault actually occurred.

It is us who don’t know what exactly happened in Delphi, but the locals have more details, no doubt. And if I knew that there were a sexual maniac and serial killer roaming in the neighborhood, I’d get scared and do everything to help him get caught. And when LE says, someone knows, someone, for sure, does. And maybe not one person. That no one has seen or heard anything when two girls were killed, I can not imagine. Yet everyone is silent, and it means, they, indeed, believe it was an isolated case.

And it was an isolated case, then the motive was not sexual. Otherwise, it is a sex maniac, a SK, and how can anyone guarantee that other women of Delphi will be safe?

Yet TL in his interview said exactly this, “isolated to the individuals”. How can it be almost certainly sexual then? Someone was crazy about Libby or Abby and harmed them but is guaranteed to never repeat it?
 
It is us who don’t know what exactly happened in Delphi, but the locals have more details, no doubt. And if I knew that there were a sexual maniac and serial killer roaming in the neighborhood, I’d get scared and do everything to help him get caught. And when LE says, someone knows, someone, for sure, does. And maybe not one person. That no one has seen or heard anything when two girls were killed, I can not imagine. Yet everyone is silent, and it means, they, indeed, believe it was an isolated case.

And it was an isolated case, then the motive was not sexual. Otherwise, it is a sex maniac, a SK, and how can anyone guarantee that other women of Delphi will be safe?

Yet TL in his interview said exactly this, “isolated to the individuals”. How can it be almost certainly sexual then? Someone was crazy about Libby or Abby and harmed them but is guaranteed to never repeat it?
The locals don't necessarily know more than we do. That's an invalid assumption.
-
The comments that you mentioned were not necessarily true; they were made early on in, before LE knew anything, in order to forestall mass panic within the community.
 
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