Israel Keyes: General Discussion

[Murkywaters]

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs) This is the second UID case that was discussed in the podcast.

On May 10, 2012, an adult human leg bone was unearthed by a dog in the silt of the newly drained Lake Aldwell on the lower Lower Elwha Klallam reservation. The race and gender is unknown and the age range is between 18-99.

What makes this likely?

- Israel Keyes worked on The Lower Elwha Klallam reservation in at least 2004, 2005 and possibly 2006.

- The location where the bone was found is right at the intersection where Keyes attempted to run a woman named Molly off the road late one Winter/spring night in 2001 or 2002.

Leg bone unconnected to cold case | Peninsula Daily News Police originally suspected the bone might belong to Karen Tucker missing since 1990, however DNA ruled Karen out.

 

[salmonsauce]

As I understand it, IK's timeline is based on cell phone ping, airline records, and bank statements. The assumption is that IK was using his card in person.

But does anyone know what shows up on a bank statement if you call a company and use your card over the phone, as opposed to in person?

 

[deadfoot13]

As I understand it, IK's timeline is based on cell phone ping, airline records, and bank statements. The assumption is that IK was using his card in person.

But does anyone know what shows up on a bank statement if you call a company and use your card over the phone, as opposed to in person?

I transfer money between my credit union accounts via phone, ATM, and the computer, so I just pulled up my last bank statement -- all three transactions on my statement show as transfer from account A to account B, but the ATM transactions do include the location of the ATM machine. Phone and computer transfers are not specified by type on my statement, they just show as TSFR (account suffix) to (account suffix). If I go into the transaction details within my account on the credit union's website, it does give me further info as to the origin of the transfer, but that doesn't show up on the bank statement itself.

Of course, this is a credit union in NY in today's day and age, and I don't know how, or even if, bank statements vary from state to state.

 

[KinseyWannabe]

Instead of quoting someone else's work at length, can you please state your own ideas or just say, "This episode cast a lot of light on..." in a sentence or two? I kept reading trying to find what you had to say, only to find out there wasn't any of your ideas in there. Thank you.

https://player.fm/series/true-crime-bullsh/ep-0405-mythology

<snipped three lengthy paragraphs quoted in entirety>

 

[Murkywaters]

Instead of quoting someone else's work at length, can you please state your own ideas or just say, "This episode cast a lot of light on..." in a sentence or two? I kept reading trying to find what you had to say, only to find out there wasn't any of your ideas in there. Thank you.

The research is by Josh Hallmark, it isn't my ideas or research as he is the one that files FOI requests for the information that goes into the episodes.

 

[salmonsauce]

I transfer money between my credit union accounts via phone, ATM, and the computer, so I just pulled up my last bank statement -- all three transactions on my statement show as transfer from account A to account B, but the ATM transactions do include the location of the ATM machine. Phone and computer transfers are not specified by type on my statement, they just show as TSFR (account suffix) to (account suffix). If I go into the transaction details within my account on the credit union's website, it does give me further info as to the origin of the transfer, but that doesn't show up on the bank statement itself.

Of course, this is a credit union in NY in today's day and age, and I don't know how, or even if, bank statements vary from state to state.

So as far as you can tell only the ATM transactions show a location?

It occurred to me that if IK purchased something at, say, ACE Hardware in Salt Lake City with his card, we might believe he was there in person, when he could've been making a purchase by phone instead. If that's the case, his timeline might be a lot less clear.

Also, I use both a small local bank and a national bank. And the transaction dates with the small bank aren't always accurate.

Food for thought.

 

[deadfoot13]

So as far as you can tell only the ATM transactions show a location?

It occurred to me that if IK purchased something at, say, ACE Hardware in Salt Lake City with his card, we might believe he was there in person, when he could've been making a purchase by phone instead. If that's the case, his timeline might be a lot less clear.

Also, I use both a small local bank and a national bank. And the transaction dates with the small bank aren't always accurate.

Food for thought.

Purchases are different on my statement, I mistakenly thought you were referring to transfers between accounts. Purchases show as fairly detailed, but do not specify if the purchase is over the phone or in person or online, it just shows the vendor, address, and some long transaction # along with date of purchase and amount (I don't do too many purchases over the phone so had to sit here trying to remember the last time we had Chinese food for supper, LOL!) It doesn't give me more details if I click on the transaction in my history, I get pretty much the same info as is on the statement. The date of debit is sometimes different than the purchase date, depending on whether I use my card to purchase something on a weekend or holiday.

It's not a stretch to think that he made purchases by phone, but I imagine if the authorities asked the bank for details on a specific transaction, they'd be able to give them more info than we see on a paper statement. They may also be able to get that info from the vendor directly, depending on the system in use.

You're right, it's good to see where his timeline could have stretch and give, those little extra pockets of time could provide all kinds of info about his activities that aren't already known!

 

[cujenn81]

So as far as you can tell only the ATM transactions show a location?

It occurred to me that if IK purchased something at, say, ACE Hardware in Salt Lake City with his card, we might believe he was there in person, when he could've been making a purchase by phone instead. If that's the case, his timeline might be a lot less clear.

Also, I use both a small local bank and a national bank. And the transaction dates with the small bank aren't always accurate.

Food for thought.

This is definitely an angle worth considering. Although, I can’t really picture IK doing a lot of online shopping—legitimately or otherwise. His family lived a very barebones off-the-grid lifestyle when he was a child, and I can only assume that his technological aptitude suffered as a result. He even admitted to LE that he had no idea they could track his location using the ATM withdrawals.

I also think most of the purchase location data was determined using receipts LE recovered from his home (but I could be wrong). He probably kept receipts for tax purposes, as he owned a construction company and worked for himself.

 

[beubeubeu]

He even admitted to LE that he had no idea they could track his location using the ATM withdrawals.

He also said that he despises all of that online interest in serial killers while doing literally everything he could to show himself as a mysterious, intriguing genius who should get all the attention of people trying to figure him out, for years.

I would bet that he had every idea that he possibly could, he adapted extremely well and played mind games, constantly.

 

[saussy]

He also said that he despises all of that online interest in serial killers while doing literally everything he could to show himself as a mysterious, intriguing genius who should get all the attention of people trying to figure him out, for years.

I would bet that he had every idea that he possibly could, he adapted extremely well and played mind games, constantly.

Bbm.

I agree. I believe that IK was very aware that his ATM visits would be tracked. I think that he played dumb about that because he would use card transactions as alibis for past crimes, so he wanted to throw the FBI off from realizing that his past transactions were not representative of his location. He built up trust to use it to his advantage. I think that IK had a mental inventory of which crimes he would be forthcoming about and which ones he would deny.

I think that IK used certain truths to conceal other things. For example, he was forthcoming about abducting and murdering SK and the Curriers plus a few bank robberies, and all details were corroborated. After that, he is viewed as honest and trustworthy, so anything that he chooses to deny is taken at face value by the FBI. He even stumbles on his words a few times and says something like: “I can see how something I’ve said could be construed as a lie but that was never my intent.” He very much wanted to be seen as honest - it benefited him immensely.

 

[dub]

This may be old news, but I just discovered the timeline on the TCBS website:

http://www.our-americana.com/timeline

There's not much on there about Keyes' cross-country trips that's not already known, but there is a TON of information about Keyes' activities in Washington that I'd never really heard before and I don't believe is addressed much on the podcast.

The most interesting part by far, to me, is Keyes' run of ferry trips from the peninsula to the Seattle area and back between January and September 2005. Unless the timeline is missing info, it appears that Keyes never took the ferry prior to 1/10/05 despite living in Neah Bay for years beforehand, then out of nowhere he makes 27 (one-way) trips in 8 months, then after that the ferry trips mostly stop.

He does make another 12 ferry trips before moving to AK, but over the course of 18 months, and most of these trips can be attributed to work., whereas NONE of the original 27 are indicated as such.

And it just so happens, on 9/25/05, the date of the very last trip of the original 27, a dude and his car go missing from Everett, which is less than 20 miles from where the ferry drops off in Edmonds.

Roger Lenard Jung – The Charley Project

I had heard of Roger Jung before (and actually may have known of his disappearance when it happened, as I lived in Seattle at the time), but never knew of all these ferry trips Keyes was making, and hence never really considered him as a possible victim. It is a massive understatement to say I am now rethinking that.

 

[Falling Down]

This may be old news, but I just discovered the timeline on the TCBS website:

http://www.our-americana.com/timeline

There's not much on there about Keyes' cross-country trips that's not already known, but there is a TON of information about Keyes' activities in Washington that I'd never really heard before and I don't believe is addressed much on the podcast.

The most interesting part by far, to me, is Keyes' run of ferry trips from the peninsula to the Seattle area and back between January and September 2005. Unless the timeline is missing info, it appears that Keyes never took the ferry prior to 1/10/05 despite living in Neah Bay for years beforehand, then out of nowhere he makes 27 (one-way) trips in 8 months, then after that the ferry trips mostly stop.

He does make another 12 ferry trips before moving to AK, but over the course of 18 months, and most of these trips can be attributed to work., whereas NONE of the original 27 are indicated as such.

And it just so happens, on 9/25/05, the date of the very last trip of the original 27, a dude and his car go missing from Everett, which is less than 20 miles from where the ferry drops off in Edmonds.

Roger Lenard Jung – The Charley Project

I had heard of Roger Jung before (and actually may have known of his disappearance when it happened, as I lived in Seattle at the time), but never knew of all these ferry trips Keyes was making, and hence never really considered him as a possible victim. It is a massive understatement to say I am now rethinking that.

Interesting that the vehicle is is missing, too, in that case.

 

[dub]

Interesting that the vehicle is is missing, too, in that case.

Yep, very interesting indeed. I have trouble wrapping my head around how it was assumed Roger had a mountain climbing accident when his car disappeared with him, especially because there's no direct reason to believe he was anywhere in the vicinity of the mountains (at least to my knowledge).

Roger would be an extremely atypical victim in that he was comparable in size and athleticism to Keyes (he actually probably exceeded Keyes on both counts), but everything else to me seems like a tight fit. If Keyes really did strong-arm disappear someone that big and with that degree of physical capability, man that is a whole new level of terrifying.

 

[LeneYael]

Purchases are different on my statement, I mistakenly thought you were referring to transfers between accounts. Purchases show as fairly detailed, but do not specify if the purchase is over the phone or in person or online, it just shows the vendor, address, and some long transaction # along with date of purchase and amount (I don't do too many purchases over the phone so had to sit here trying to remember the last time we had Chinese food for supper, LOL!) It doesn't give me more details if I click on the transaction in my history, I get pretty much the same info as is on the statement. The date of debit is sometimes different than the purchase date, depending on whether I use my card to purchase something on a weekend or holiday.

It's not a stretch to think that he made purchases by phone, but I imagine if the authorities asked the bank for details on a specific transaction, they'd be able to give them more info than we see on a paper statement. They may also be able to get that info from the vendor directly, depending on the *** system in use.

You're right, it's good to see where his timeline could have stretch and give, those little extra pockets of time could provide all kinds of info about his activities that aren't already known!

However, back in the 2000-early 2010s only super techsavvy people could do that. I doubt he knew how to.

 

[LeneYael]

This may be old news, but I just discovered the timeline on the TCBS website:

http://www.our-americana.com/timeline

There's not much on there about Keyes' cross-country trips that's not already known, but there is a TON of information about Keyes' activities in Washington that I'd never really heard before and I don't believe is addressed much on the podcast.

The most interesting part by far, to me, is Keyes' run of ferry trips from the peninsula to the Seattle area and back between January and September 2005. Unless the timeline is missing info, it appears that Keyes never took the ferry prior to 1/10/05 despite living in Neah Bay for years beforehand, then out of nowhere he makes 27 (one-way) trips in 8 months, then after that the ferry trips mostly stop.

He does make another 12 ferry trips before moving to AK, but over the course of 18 months, and most of these trips can be attributed to work., whereas NONE of the original 27 are indicated as such.

And it just so happens, on 9/25/05, the date of the very last trip of the original 27, a dude and his car go missing from Everett, which is less than 20 miles from where the ferry drops off in Edmonds.

Roger Lenard Jung – The Charley Project

I had heard of Roger Jung before (and actually may have known of his disappearance when it happened, as I lived in Seattle at the time), but never knew of all these ferry trips Keyes was making, and hence never really considered him as a possible victim. It is a massive understatement to say I am now rethinking that.

 

[LeneYael]

I'd more think of ferrytrips as something where he could, trip by trip, get rid of possible already dead victims.

 

[Dalia Mismaria]

I'd more think of ferrytrips as something where he could, trip by trip, get rid of possible already dead victims.

I live in the area and the ferry routes he was taking (Edmonds-Kingston and Mukilteo-Clinton) are the most used ferry routes in the state (people actually commute daily on these routes). There are hundreds of cars on each sailing, and they are very tightly packed. The passenger decks are not open to the sea (think big windows like on a subway or train). You *can* go out to a very small outdoor deck, and on nice days it's filled with tourists or people taking selfies. A body could be dumped out the open sides of the vehicle deck, but like I said, the ferries are packed and there's nothing to do on them (often times you lose cell service and you can't even turn your car on to listen to the radio etc...) half the time you're just staring out the window at the car(s) in front of you. If he got out and opened his trunk to pull out a body, people would notice. If he dumped something, it would be tough to do so surreptitiously and there are so many environmentalists who, even assuming it was garbage, would be enraged. Not to mention there are ferry service workers who just kind of stand around on the vehicle deck or walk through and make sure people aren't smoking or turning their cars on, etc...

I just think it would be way too risky.

 

[Dalia Mismaria]

I'm actually here to ask about Everett, WA and any info that people might have...

When I first heard of Israel Keyes I was creeped out because his picture looked so familiar. When I realized he was from Washington, that uneasy feeling grew even more. He is not that well known around here, perhaps he gets overshadowed by Bundy and the Green River Killer? Not sure. But I didn't hear about him until about a year ago and it changed my life.

When I listened to TCB and especially his interviews, I knew that we had met before, because his voice and mannerisms were so familiar... And then there was something that he reportedly told some people he had met, and when I heard it, it all clicked into place and I realized when/where I had crossed paths with him. I got nauseous thinking about it.

Now, in the timeline that Josh Hallmark has put together, there is a lot of activity in Everett in Spring 2006 that says "Work." I wanted to know if anyone had more details about where/what he was working on in Everett? Is there a business associated with his time in Everett? Or was he working for a friend? Was it in North Everett or South Everett?

If you have ever had a memory that is just out of reach and eerie and haunting you, then you know what I'm going through... even though I know he is dead, he still scares me, because when I met him I thought he was an average guy. But he wasn't.

 

[dub]

I'm actually here to ask about Everett, WA and any info that people might have...

When I first heard of Israel Keyes I was creeped out because his picture looked so familiar. When I realized he was from Washington, that uneasy feeling grew even more. He is not that well known around here, perhaps he gets overshadowed by Bundy and the Green River Killer? Not sure. But I didn't hear about him until about a year ago and it changed my life.

When I listened to TCB and especially his interviews, I knew that we had met before, because his voice and mannerisms were so familiar... And then there was something that he reportedly told some people he had met, and when I heard it, it all clicked into place and I realized when/where I had crossed paths with him. I got nauseous thinking about it.

Now, in the timeline that Josh Hallmark has put together, there is a lot of activity in Everett in Spring 2006 that says "Work." I wanted to know if anyone had more details about where/what he was working on in Everett? Is there a business associated with his time in Everett? Or was he working for a friend? Was it in North Everett or South Everett?

If you have ever had a memory that is just out of reach and eerie and haunting you, then you know what I'm going through... even though I know he is dead, he still scares me, because when I met him I thought he was an average guy. But he wasn't.

BBM

Good questions but I have no idea what the answers are.

My guess (and it's just a guess and could be totally wrong) is that whatever was going on in Everett is known because of entries on Keyes' girlfriend's calendar. According to TCBS she kept pretty meticulous records in her calendar, so it's possible there was more specific information included than just "work in Everett" or whatever.

Whether I'm right about this or not, I think there's a decent chance that Josh Hallmark has this info, so you could try to contact him directly. I have no idea if he'd respond, but it couldn't hurt to ask. His email address is listed at the bottom left of the timeline page or any page on the Our Americana website.

 

[Falling Down]

I'm actually here to ask about Everett, WA and any info that people might have...

When I first heard of Israel Keyes I was creeped out because his picture looked so familiar. When I realized he was from Washington, that uneasy feeling grew even more. He is not that well known around here, perhaps he gets overshadowed by Bundy and the Green River Killer? Not sure. But I didn't hear about him until about a year ago and it changed my life.

When I listened to TCB and especially his interviews, I knew that we had met before, because his voice and mannerisms were so familiar... And then there was something that he reportedly told some people he had met, and when I heard it, it all clicked into place and I realized when/where I had crossed paths with him. I got nauseous thinking about it.

Now, in the timeline that Josh Hallmark has put together, there is a lot of activity in Everett in Spring 2006 that says "Work." I wanted to know if anyone had more details about where/what he was working on in Everett? Is there a business associated with his time in Everett? Or was he working for a friend? Was it in North Everett or South Everett?

If you have ever had a memory that is just out of reach and eerie and haunting you, then you know what I'm going through... even though I know he is dead, he still scares me, because when I met him I thought he was an average guy. But he wasn't.

Here is the Possible Sightings thread:

Possible Sightings