Laura Babcock Murder Trial 12.12.17 - Final Charge - *Verdict Watch*

[DeaconBrodie]

I have a question regarding a comparison of US trials vs. Canadian Trials.

Does the Judge is the US charge the Jury by going over every piece of evidence, or do they just explain the charges and how to find the defendant guilty or not guilty?

I find this particular Charge to the Jury extremely detailed and I have to admit, I'm confused. I don't remember this at the TB trial. I do remember the decision trees which I haven't heard Judge Code discuss yet or else I've skimmed over it.

TIA

I can't speak to the U.S. system but what Code is doing is what I have always seen done in Canada.

It's an interesting process because the jury is always very respectful of the judge's opinion and during the charge the judge gets to influence the jury by telling them what he or she thinks is important and to put their slant on the evidence which Justice Code is doing and it definitely isn't in DM or MS's favour.

Based on his charge, I don't think Justice Code would have any difficulty convicting them both of M1.

 

[andreww]

What was the purpose of the gun?
MS hooked DM up with MWJ...


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For one, no evidence at all that a gun was ever used. Secondly, Isho was also a drug dealer and Millard was in the drug business.

 

[redwing7225]

I get where you're coming from andreww. If they're going to use the knowledge and procurement of the gun(s) and the incinerator against MS for M1 in this particular case, I've never quite understood how they justify what MWJ and SS probably knew of DM's plans for them as well. The way I see it is that MS is facing the charge because he was there in the house on the night she died and he helped with the incineration 20 days later. Still don't see any proof that he knew DM was going to kill LB that night or that he took part in it. :dunno:

MOO

Wondering...the Crown was confident enough to charge MS and DM with M1, direct indictment.
Could it be, that the information pertaining to MS knowledge, is wrapped up and kicked out of court during the legal arguments?


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[Kamille]

Lisa Hepfner‏ @HefCHCHNews
2m2 minutes ago
Justice Code is still going through Rufalo's evidence. Another bone, he thought more resembled a deer tibia than a human tibia. #LauraBabcock

 

[Jasper52]

Thanks, Kamille for picking up Lisa Hepfner's tweets. I didn't even check her feed as she stopped tweeting about the case on Dec. 8th. Glad she's tweeting again!

 

[banting]

I thought that a verdict would be forthcoming very quickly after during the TB trial and was very surprised that it took as long as it did for the Jury to come back with a verdict. In fact I thought it was a slam dunk based on the wealth of evidence.

I'm going to take a conservative approach here and say that a verdict will be delivered by Friday, probably early afternoon and I see a gulty of M1 for both. I think DM will be found guilty immediately. I think discussion is going to ensue over MS. He's the wild card in this one I think but I have faith in the Jury. I believe they will see their way to convict him as well.

I think that in a case as important and high profile as this, the jury, whatever their instincts tell them, will want to go through every piece of evidence to make sure they fully understand its significance and there is a lot of evidence to consider. If they come out in short order with guilty verdicts I think there will be immediate calls for mistrial on the grounds that they did'n't take into account all of the evidence. I agree there is likely going to be a lot of discussion around MS and judging by the comments on here alone there are bound to be some who don't agree with M1 and they will probably take a lot of convincing otherwise. Having said that, I've never been on a jury so I maybe way off the mark.

 

[redwing7225]

For one, no evidence at all that a gun was ever used. Secondly, Isho was also a drug dealer and Millard was in the drug business.

Thank you andreww, my mind is one-way, I appreciate your view on this.

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[meterclicks]

Code now goes through some of the technical aspects of Dr. Rufolo's evidence, and reminds the jury of some of the photos the witness presented, which he said helped with his analysis.
by Shannon Martin 11:19 AM

 

[billandrew]

BBM, I totally disagree. In fact I think there is an absence of evidence linking him to the planning of this crime. A few texts about bones? It has been showed time and time again that Millard was using either the garbage or animal incineration story to explain the incinerators presence. You are assuming that Smich was the only person he told of his true intentions. Smich suggests testing on a dog, which would be in line with what he was told.

That said, the judge did not make it overly clear in his charge to the jury that Smich's assistance needed to be before or after the actual killing. So technically Smich assisted in the crime by helping dispose of the body (I think we all agree on that). Is that M1? I'm not sure at this point?

One of MS’s texts was, “we should get me a dog.” BBM. I believe this shows that MS had more ownership/interest in the incinerator project beyond just helping DM. And MS was not entering the pet cremation business. IMO their plan was to murder people and burn their bodies. This was the ruthlessness, the business rising, etc. that they frequently talked about.

IMHO, in addition to profiting from taking things “from the source”, the sinister experiences of killing and cremating were intended to give MS inspiration to write his rap lyrics. Kinda like a painter will travel to a remote mountain range for inspiration, MS wanted real experiences to inspire his violent raps. This is how he would gain an edge on other “wannabe” rappers. Being “real” in gangster rap is an important thing. Killing LB mutually benefitted DM and MS. DM cured his parasites/herpes and MS had real material to base his raps from.

I also think it’s feasible that they envisioned a human cremation service to eliminate evidence for shady folks like Isho and his connections. His crowd was not far removed from the Hell’s Angels and other gangs. Once they had their process down they could open their shop for business. We also heard that DM was going to build a giant garage at his farm, supposedly to create the ultimate chop shop.

 

[Tealgrove]

Wondering...the Crown was confident enough to charge MS and DM with M1, direct indictment.
Could it be, that the information pertaining to MS knowledge, is wrapped up and kicked out of court during the legal arguments?


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.
That's what I'm thinking. There is more evidence that was ruled out. We will hear about that this afternoon once the Jury is sequestered and begins deliberating.

There are several things that I question that don't appear to be 100% for me, but to find guilt it doesn't have to be 100%. I keep reminding myself of this time and time again.

The Crown got a direct indictment. That speaks volumes. I have to believe that there is more that the Crown was unable to bring into evidence for various reasons.

Can they find MS guilt of Murder in the first degree with the evidence presented? Can they find him guilty beyond REASONABLE doubt? I think they can.

But there is more evidence, of this I am certain. This afternoon will be interesting.

MOO

 

[Nosey Parker]

I predict M1 for DM and not guilty on all 3 options for MS

I'm afraid this might be the case too, based strictly on insufficient evidence. I hope not, knowing what he is capable of.

 

[winter2017]

Lisa said after the jury is sequestered she can discuss things the jury did not hear today. That should be interesting, I hope it is not more disturbing stuff by this group of scum.
We have had to hear too much already about them and all their most vile antics. IT is stuff I cannot ever erase from my mind.
Why is it that every decade a case like this comes along that is so disgusting that you can barely recognize those involved as human beings.
What is chilling to me is to know these types were out there and anyone could run into them, that to me is the most scary part of it. They could be your neighbor, co-worker, etc. IT is possible I even had contact with MM or MS when I lived in Oakville and both of them give make me want to be sick.

At least now people know all about MM so she cannot put on the innocent act , and I believe she still lives in Oakville but now everyone knows about her. It is hard to imagine she works in a store, if anyone recognizes her, I cannot imagine they would want to shop in that store.

 

[Just4TB]

Thanks for picking up Lisa Hepfner's tweets Kamille, Shannon misses a lot... :gaah:

Perhaps Adam already finished his Christmas shopping, while Shannon could be doing hers via Amazon this morning... between the occasional court tweet.

 

[meterclicks]

Code says he's now finished reviewing the evidence, "I did it much more exhaustively and thoroughly than I normally do."

He said that's because there has been more than six weeks of complex evidence.
by Shannon Martin 11:24 AM

 

[meterclicks]

He says he'll go through one or two more instructions before taking the morning recess.
by Shannon Martin 11:24 AM

 

[CJPRINCESS]

For one, no evidence at all that a gun was ever used. Secondly, Isho was also a drug dealer and Millard was in the drug business.

As well as a CONVICTED illegal firearms dealer :thinking:

 

[Kamille]

Lisa Hepfner‏ @HefCHCHNews
7m7 minutes ago
There is an old-looking wooden spinning box sitting next to the court registrar. Once the judge finishes his charge, all the jurors' numbers will be carefully mixed together in that box, and two will be drawn. Those two will go home. Only 12 will deliberate. #LauraBabcock

Lisa Hepfner‏ @HefCHCHNews
4m4 minutes ago
Quick search indicates the box is called a lottery drum, or a raffle ticket drum. I wonder if there is a proper judicial title.

Lisa Hepfner‏ @HefCHCHNews
3m3 minutes ago
"That's the defence evidence and that completes my review of the case," which is not exhaustive, Justice Code tells the jury. We are now at heading "B." He was much more exhaustive than normal because the evidence over six weeks was complicated, he says. #LauraBabcock

 

[Kamille]

Lisa Hepfner‏ @HefCHCHNews
3m3 minutes ago
It's the jury's recollection of evidence that matters, he says. He has a couple more instructions before the morning recess. #LauraBabcock

Lisa Hepfner‏ @HefCHCHNews
2m2 minutes ago
Justice is now speaking about the credibility and reliability of exculpatory evidence, he says. The competing theories in this case: #LauraBabcock is dead at the hands of #Millard and #Smich, or she's not dead, or dead of some other cause.

 

[redwing7225]

As well as a CONVICTED illegal firearms dealer :thinking:

Exactly!
What decent, respectful human being needs to be in possession of an ILLEGAL firearm? DM, via texts, appeared to be down on his knees begging for the link to MWJ. If it was just for drugs, I'm sure there's more than 1 dealer in that big ol city. Imo

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[meterclicks]

Code, now on page 306 of his charge, reviews the 'burden and standard of proof applied to the credibility and reliability of exculpatory evidence.'

He says there is conflicting accounts as to what happened in this case. The Crown, he reminds them, has put forward a "body of circumstantial evidence"

Code, "You will be assessing the credibility and reliability of all of the evidence that has resulted in these conflicting accounts."
by Shannon Martin 11:30 AM