Madeleine McCann 3 year old missing in Portugal - Part 8

[docwho3]

docwho3, in the case you mentioned, the victim wouldn't be the parents, it would be the baby left in the car. Tragic as it may be to have your child kidnapped, either on purpose or accidentally, it's the abducted child who is victimized.. . .

Sure the child is a victim but if the parents did not harm the child then they are victims as well and no ones anger at their perceived lack of parenting skills changes that fact. The child is gone. What more can any of us do in anger towards that will hurt them more than that? I say find the child and let the family begin to heal and then look at what factors contributed to her being stolen and take whatever actions are appropriate at that time. The thief who stole this child did the crime and the poor child and her poor parents are victims and we should not shift a bullseye onto the parents backs just becasue we have not yet found the true thief who took the child.


Victim: "a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or agency: . ."

When someone steals your child that does you harm and is a grievous injury to your whole household. Parents who have lost a child can probably tell you that it is a great injury that hurts.

 

[Shazza]

Sure the child is a victim but if the parents did not harm the child then they are victims as well and no ones anger at their perceived lack of parenting skills changes that fact. The child is gone. What more can any of us do in anger towards that will hurt them more than that? I say find the child and let the family begin to heal and then look at what factors contributed to her being stolen and take whatever actions are appropriate at that time. The thief who stole this child did the crime and the poor child and her poor parents are victims and we should not shift a bullseye onto the parents backs just becasue we have not yet found the true thief who took the child.


Victim: "a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or agency: . ."

When someone steals your child that does you harm and is a grievous injury to your whole household. Parents who have lost a child can probably tell you that it is a great injury that hurts.

Was this child taken, we dont know that the child was taken, there is no concrete evidence that that is what happened, the parents could have been involved so your saying if the parents were involved in Madelaines disappearance that they are still victims, I dont think so. I am not saying that the parents did do anything else with Madelaine except leave her alone which put her in harms way, but no one knows yet what has happened to her. It is all speculation at this point as to what has happened to Madelaine. But the parents are not the victims, they could be the perpetrators, we dont know that they are not involved.

But there is evidence the parents put their children in harms way, and they have lied about what happened that night.... how can they be called victims. This all started because of them.

 

[docwho3]

But there is evidence the parents put their children in harms way, and they have lied about what happened that night.... how can they be called victims. This all started because of them.

If you cannot see they are victims after all this then you never will see it and that is your choice. Until I see evidence of more than a possible error in parenting I choose differently.

 

[Shazza]

If you cannot see they are victims after all this then you never will see it and that is your choice. Until I see evidence of more than a possible error in parenting I choose differently.

There has been more evidence against the parents than anyone else, their parenting skills are in question, not only do they leave their children alone at night, but they are put into daycare most for most of their holiday in Portugal, why would a parent put their children in a daycare everyday on a family holiday, this is the time that you would spend quality time with your kids, as I assume they work long hours being in the medical profession, and they are sent to daycare whilst they work, so the parenting skill come into question imo.
I do not see these parents as victims, but at fault. If we ever find out the truth and the parents are not anymore involved than they already are I will eat humble pie, but in saying that if they are not involved other than leaving their kids alone they should be charged with child endangerment, and I have never heard of a victim being charged for a crime they made possible.

 

[april4sky]

Ummm, yes, they do sometimes. There have been other cases where parents left a child in a car alone and went into by a pack of smokes and the car was stolen with the baby inside. It happens. Not all victims of crimes are perfect people or perfect parents but that does not make them any less victims when their child is stolen and/or harmed. This vitriol against the parents with little or no evidence of them perpetrating a crime against their child (as in murder or kidnap) is nothing more than than that,vitriol, and in the face of having no evidence to back it up it seems like a crime to me in itself. If anyone wants to lynch the parents at least show me how that finds the little missing girl.

If such judgments were part of a solid theory that had any supporting evidence that could indicate the parents killed this child I might look upon it . . . . .but when done without any evidence at all it sounds like family bashing to me but that's just my opinion.

Great post docwho3. My sentiments exactly :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[Trino]

Sure the child is a victim but if the parents did not harm the child then they are victims as well and no ones anger at their perceived lack of parenting skills changes that fact. The child is gone. What more can any of us do in anger towards that will hurt them more than that? I say find the child and let the family begin to heal and then look at what factors contributed to her being stolen and take whatever actions are appropriate at that time. The thief who stole this child did the crime and the poor child and her poor parents are victims and we should not shift a bullseye onto the parents backs just becasue we have not yet found the true thief who took the child.

I agree the parents are victims, but their behavior enabled their child to disappear.

You mention "appropriate time." When is the appropriate time to take action, especially if Madeline is never found?

 

[jacobean]

Quote: As to the behaviour of Mrs Mcann – I believe there is a tendency to want see a display of grief of some sort in the USA but that is another cultural difference as the British like to keep their feelings more to themselves Unquote

been lurking in here for a while, would like to say that although i agree and am pleased that the cultural differences have been brought up (im also a brit btw), i think theres a bit of a difference between our famed "stiff upper lippiness" and the behaviour shown by the McCanns which makes me frankly extremely uncomfortable . And while i dont hate them (dont really think anyone else does either) or necessarily agree on their involvement, i do 100% agree with many of the posters here that they need to own their mistakes and quit trying to justify or excuse leaving three kids on their own, at night, in a ground floor appt, with the bloody door unlocked! They need to face up to the fact that they are responsible for a situation that allowed someone to abduct their 4 yr old daughter. That alone, imo, is evidence of a definate error in parenting.

 

[april4sky]

This article may be of interest, but keep in mind it's a tabloid so may not be true. Tabloids are not as bad as blogs though. They are just sh#t stirrers, in my opinion.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topsto...ale-in-quiz-by-madeleine-cops-89520-19534073/

 

[april4sky]

The Sun......Another tabloid is also carrying the same story as the Mirror.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2005320001-2007340855,00.html

 

[colomom]

~snip~
This vitriol against the parents with little or no evidence of them perpetrating a crime against their child (as in murder or kidnap) is nothing more than than that,vitriol, and in the face of having no evidence to back it up it seems like a crime to me in itself. If anyone wants to lynch the parents at least show me how that finds the little missing girl.

Hello docwho3,

Thank you for posting your feelings about this case. We need to have more than one point of view expressed.

I want to touch on the part of your post outlined above. The word "vitriol" means "cruel and bitter criticism" and honestly, I do not think most of us have gone there. Criticism, yes...cruel and bitter, no. I have never seen anyone call for anybody to be "lynched" or even arrested. We have been insistent that the McCanns need to tell the truth. I believe that there has been alot of evidence that they haven't. In my opinion, in order for the LE to conduct a proper investigation they need to know the truth. I am not sure why but it appears that the McCanns (and others) have not been truthful with those responsible for investigating Maddy's dissapearance. While I would expect deceit from a kidnapper I would expect complete and total honesty from Madeleine's parents. We have been clamoring for the truth. The truth may indeed help find this little girl. I don't care if it's ugly, personally damaging or embarassing to the McCanns, her life may depend on it.

We want the truth! The speculation and conjecture beyond that is human nature and I think we have been very civil. If you want to see vitirol than visit some of the forums in her home country.

 

[colomom]

been lurking in here for a while, would like to say that although i agree and am pleased that the cultural differences have been brought up (im also a brit btw), i think theres a bit of a difference between our famed "stiff upper lippiness" and the behaviour shown by the McCanns which makes me frankly extremely uncomfortable. ~snip~

Hello jacobean!

Welcome to the forum! I love it when our conversations bring lurkers out to contribute. Please stick around....you input is appreciated.

:blowkiss:

 

[docwho3]

. . .You mention "appropriate time." When is the appropriate time to take action, especially if Madeline is never found?

If the child is never found or is found dead (but not dead by the parents hands) I think that is punishment enough for any poor parenting error. How can one do more to a grieving parent who has lost a child than the loss itself has already done to them?

If she is found alive then I think after a certain amount of time is allowed for the family to reunite charges could be brought if L.E. thinks charges should be brought for poor parenting that day that she disappeared. One should not try to bring charges in a case that is incomplete.

 

[mrsmousemat]

Please MrsMouseMat, give us a little credit. We are not stupid.

Especially those of us in America, we know how manipulative the media can be, shoot, we are heaven for the paparazzi. We are the home of the "spin doctor" in this country.

I don't think that most of us here hate the McCanns, that is a really strong word. I think we are frustrated, dumbfounded and aggravated by them. Most of those emotions do not have anything to do with pictures. It is words, it is inconsistencies, it is their refusal to take responsibility for the part that they played in her dissapearance. The way that they continue to blame us for their huge error in judgement (by saying things like "the comments are hurtful and not helpful"). They tell us that we are the bad guys!!! If they would just stop that self-righteous, sanctimonious, holier-than-thou C R A P, and admit that what they did was dangerous and selfish, we would be a much different beast on this board.

It may be too late now. My gut tells me that they will never admit their cupability. And BTW, if they decided that they wanted to return to their home, for the sake of the twins, and they expressed that feeling, and I believed what they were telling me, I would be the first to tell them that it was OK to move their family home and continue the fight from there.

AND, if it turns out that we were completely wrong about our gut instinct in this case (somehow I do not think so) I think we have already expressed how happy we would be to eat crow!

I just need to know what really happened to Madeleine......

Your'e IQ doesn't really matter - it's just that many people do not know how the media operates. Whether you read the broadsheets or tabloids you can get information that is biased and you can believe it without questioning the source and the context.

Most of the much-quoted infromation about the McCann's seems to come from a Portuguese paper.

I would guess that they are not prostrating themselves asking for forgiveness on leaving the children on legal advice - because of the Portuguese law about unattended children.

Great for anyone who thinks they should face charges in a Portuguese court immediately - but perhaps the needs of the younger children might outway their need to make a public statement at the moment.

If they make a public statment, the Portuguese police may be forced to act, which would not be in anyone's interests at the moment.

 

[colomom]

The Sun......Another tabloid is also carrying the same story as the Mirror.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2005320001-2007340855,00.html

No matter how many stories I read about RM, I have never felt that he is responsible, but I could be wrong, it would not be the first time. My "gut" tells me that he is a opportunist and like those kids in school that always wanted attention and voluntered to help the teacher. He gives me the creeps but not in a "kidnapper/predator" way.

The article quoted his mother:
"She insisted he did not leave the villa between finishing his evening meal and going to bed.
A Portuguese newspaper reported that phone records between 8pm and midnight back her claim. But police say it does not prove he was there all night."

"The McCanns' friends Fiona Payne and Rachael Oldfield say they saw him outside Madeleine's apartment at 11.45pm, soon after she went missing. Another pal, Russell O'Brien, says he saw Murat at 1am."

Seems to me that he heard/saw all the police activity at the Ocean Club and walked over to check it out. His shifty alibi is probably due to his fear that the police were going to pin it on him. Rather than saying he was with his girlfriend he changed it to being with his mom. And the phone records (?) confirm that??? Another puzzle....

Rather than trying to figure out why RM was seen after Maddy's dissapearance, I want to know what Gerry McCann was doing on the back side of the apartment, near the children's bedroom window, when Jeremy Wilkins came upon him. This happened just before Jane Tanner reported seeing a man carrying a child. That meeting is referenced in the SOL article (here is one link: http://www.geocities.com/hallsofmirrors/SOL.html). If he was checking on the children then why not climb the stairs at the front and enter through the french doors which they said they left open? Why go around to the back? And the time is wierd. GM supposedly left to check the kids at 9:05PM and Jane Tanner saw the "man with the child" at about 9:15PM but the encounter between Jeremy Wilkins and GM would have been about 9:10PM? Jeremy said he never saw "the man".
And then Matthew Oldfield shows up to check the kids just a few minutes later? Why? And he saw the kids sleeping?

This is the one part of the whole story that just bugs me to no end.

WHY HAVEN'T LIE DETECTOR TESTS BEEN ADMINISTERED?? ON EVERYBODY??

:waitasec: :waitasec:

 

[Trino]

If the child is never found or is found dead (but not dead by the parents hands) I think that is punishment enough for any poor parenting error. How can one do more to a grieving parent who has lost a child than the loss itself has already done to them?

I, for one, would feel better about your statement if I truly felt the parents were grieving rather than jet-setting and meeting with the Pope.

Madeline's parents have broken a Portuguese law. Is it okay to break a law and not be charged?

 

[colomom]

I would guess that they are not prostrating themselves asking for forgiveness on leaving the children on legal advice - because of the Portuguese law about unattended children.
~snip~

Back to my post on the need for them to be completely honest about what happened that night. If they are trying to cover their butts by twisting times and actions because they are worried about being prosecuted....whaaaaa

too bad for them. They are not doing Madeleine any favors or LE who is trying to solve this case. Do they want to avoid jail or get their daughter back????

 

[docwho3]

Hello docwho3,

Thank you for posting your feelings about this case. We need to have more than one point of view expressed. . .

Thank you for the kind words.

. . .We have been insistent that the McCanns need to tell the truth. I believe that there has been alot of evidence that they haven't. . .

I have no problem with people saying someone involved in the case lied if they can post links to show it is so. I do have a problem with the credibility of posts by people posting that the parents are to blame for whatever happened just because they did not see the abduction take place (bearing in mind those posting such things do not yet know what happened) and I do have a problem with credibility of those who accuse the parents of murder solely on the basis of a perceived lack of emotion. I have also seen many posts about the funds that have been raised as if that somehow is evidence of murder and I have seen lots of posts about a lack of emotion shown being a horrible thing whether or not they actually committed any crime. I looked up the meaning of vitriol before posting to be certain I had the proper meaning for what I was seeing and in some cases that is what I was seeing. However I don't mean to paint all withthe same brush, there have been some extraordinarily sensible people posting as well and I pay attention when they speak as they usually post based on facts and not based on any kneejerk emotional response.

Evidence is a good thing to base a theory on.

For those who think the parents were the perps of the girls disappearance: Has anyone figured what they did with the body and in what time frame they disposed of it? (That's an honest question and not a challenge thing.)

For those who think someone other than the parents were involved why, and how was it done and where is the missing girl?

 

[mrsmousemat]

Back to my post on the need for them to be completely honest about what happened that night. If they are trying to cover their butts by twisting times and actions because they are worried about being prosecuted....whaaaaa

too bad for them. They are not doing Madeleine any favors or LE who is trying to solve this case. Do they want to avoid jail or get their daughter back????

They have to avoid getting charged if they want to continue to look after their children and look for Madeleine.

Completely honest with whom? How do you know that their statements to the police haven't been? Have you read them? and even if you had, how would you know whether they were true or not?

...Say they did a TV show where they gave a timed account of everything that they did on that night for the benefit of people like you.

You have to ask yourself - if a case ever comes to court would this information help the accused person's lawyers?

If you think th infromation might help a guilty person go free, then you have to agree that minute by minute details are best kept for the courts and not for the public domain before a trial. That's assuming the Portuguese police manage to catch anyone.

 

[april4sky]

No matter how many stories I read about RM, I have never felt that he is responsible, but I could be wrong, it would not be the first time. My "gut" tells me that he is a opportunist and like those kids in school that always wanted attention and voluntered to help the teacher. He gives me the creeps but not in a "kidnapper/predator" way.

The article quoted his mother:
"She insisted he did not leave the villa between finishing his evening meal and going to bed.
A Portuguese newspaper reported that phone records between 8pm and midnight back her claim. But police say it does not prove he was there all night."

"The McCanns' friends Fiona Payne and Rachael Oldfield say they saw him outside Madeleine's apartment at 11.45pm, soon after she went missing. Another pal, Russell O'Brien, says he saw Murat at 1am."

Seems to me that he heard/saw all the police activity at the Ocean Club and walked over to check it out. His shifty alibi is probably due to his fear that the police were going to pin it on him. Rather than saying he was with his girlfriend he changed it to being with his mom. And the phone records (?) confirm that??? Another puzzle....

Rather than trying to figure out why RM was seen after Maddy's dissapearance, I want to know what Gerry McCann was doing on the back side of the apartment, near the children's bedroom window, when Jeremy Wilkins came upon him. This happened just before Jane Tanner reported seeing a man carrying a child. That meeting is referenced in the SOL article (here is one link: http://www.geocities.com/hallsofmirrors/SOL.html). If he was checking on the children then why not climb the stairs at the front and enter through the french doors which they said they left open? Why go around to the back? And the time is wierd. GM supposedly left to check the kids at 9:05PM and Jane Tanner saw the "man with the child" at about 9:15PM but the encounter between Jeremy Wilkins and GM would have been about 9:10PM? Jeremy said he never saw "the man".
And then Matthew Oldfield shows up to check the kids just a few minutes later? Why? And he saw the kids sleeping?

This is the one part of the whole story that just bugs me to no end.

WHY HAVEN'T LIE DETECTOR TESTS BEEN ADMINISTERED?? ON EVERYBODY??

:waitasec: :waitasec:

The Sol link has been removed as it apparently violated community guidlines...I wonder why?

The mirror article also states there are Portugese witnesses who saw Murratt near the McCann apartment the evening Madeleine was kidnapped. I have no idea if he was involved or not and hope the police will be able to prove it, or clear him soon.

And the Portugese police have also said the McCanns are not suspects. And as they know details that we are not privy to that's good enough for me.

It's strange how we see the Mccanns differently. I see a couple still in shock who desperatly want to find their child. They are trying to be positive for Madeleine's sake by channeling all their efforts and taking as much expert advice on the best ways of searching for Madeleine. Madeleine's case would already have been forgotten without those efforts. Other than the UK and Portugal I doubt many other country's would have ever heard of Madeleine, but they are never given any credit for that. They should not have left their children alone and i'm sure they wish they hadn't, but that is the only thing they are guilty of IMO. Having said that I do believe they love their children.
Right now, the last thing they need is to be constantly castigated.....for Madeleine's sake they need everybody's help and support.

 

[colomom]

The Sol link has been removed as it apparently violated community guidlines...I wonder why?

...try removing the ) (parenthesis) at the end of the url...

"violated community guidlines":waitasec:
Where did that come from?