Madeleine McCann 3 year old missing in Portugal - Part 8

[Elphaba]

Has anyone heard of what GM plans to do with the "facts" he picked up on his "fact finding" mission to here in the US? I know he kept talking about how the US has this legislation and that legislation and what the centers do for missing kids... but he never applied it to the personal level of his world and how it will be reflected on finding Maddie. Or am I missing something?

 

[mrsmousemat]

[quote=docwho3;1602214]Thank you for the kind words.

I have no problem with people saying someone involved in the case lied if they can post links to show it is so. I do have a problem with the credibility of posts by people posting that the parents are to blame for whatever happened just because they did not see the abduction take place (bearing in mind those posting such things do not yet know what happened) and I do have a problem with credibility of those who accuse the parents of murder solely on the basis of a perceived lack of emotion. I have also seen many posts about the funds that have been raised as if that somehow is evidence of murder and I have seen lots of posts about a lack of emotion shown being a horrible thing whether or not they actually committed any crime. I looked up the meaning of vitriol before posting to be certain I had the proper meaning for what I was seeing and in some cases that is what I was seeing. However I don't mean to paint all withthe same brush, there have been some extraordinarily sensible people posting as well and I pay attention when they speak as they usually post based on facts and not based on any kneejerk emotional response.

Evidence is a good thing to base a theory on.

For those who think the parents were the perps of the girls disappearance: Has anyone figured what they did with the body and in what time frame they disposed of it? (That's an honest question and not a challenge thing.)

For those who think someone other than the parents were involved why, and how was it done and where is the missing girl?[/quote]

************

I agree with your views on factual evidence, as I expect you've realised if you've read the previous posts. The discussion about the rights and wrongs of leaving the children is interesting but similar opinions are being repeated over and over.

However, the Sky website says:

'Three of the McCann's party were able to identify Robert Murat as he had been confronted with allegations he had been seen "peeking into" the family's holiday apartment in Portugal on the night Madeleine was abducted'......

.....One of the three friends allegedly shouted at him: "I know you were there. I would recognise you anywhere."

It is reported all three had, in separate interviews, referred to Murat's 'lazy' right eye.'

If this is true, and he was peeping and spotted by all three witnesses - who all must have been near enough to see his eye - why didn't someone go to sit with the children?'

Edit: It appears, from another website, that they claimed they saw him AFTER the loss had been reported. But why would anyone, who has just snatched a child, return to the scene of the crime so soon after the event? It would seem a very reckless thing to do.

 

[CaliKid]

[/I]

Your'e IQ doesn't really matter - it's just that many people do not know how the media operates. Whether you read the broadsheets or tabloids you can get information that is biased and you can believe it without questioning the source and the context.

Most of the much-quoted infromation about the McCann's seems to come from a Portuguese paper.

I would guess that they are not prostrating themselves asking for forgiveness on leaving the children on legal advice - because of the Portuguese law about unattended children.

Great for anyone who thinks they should face charges in a Portuguese court immediately - but perhaps the needs of the younger children might outway their need to make a public statement at the moment.

If they make a public statment, the Portuguese police may be forced to act, which would not be in anyone's interests at the moment.

Okay, I will agree with you that bias motivates some writers in the media. I am even willing to agree that the Portuguese press may be writing articles with an unflattering point of view about the McCanns because they're tired of their country being portrayed negatively by them and their friends. Very few people like their region or country criticized and pointed at as some place lax in arresting and prosecuting criminals.

For instance, we know the McCanns claimed early on, even though they deny it now, that the PJ was inept and handling Madeleine's disappearance wrong. They demanded that information from the PJ's investigation be released to the public because they felt certain clues were important to apprehend the person responsible, and the PJ capitulated to them.

So there may be some bias in the Portuguese media against the McCanns that is flavoring their reporting. But if we're going to accuse them of manufacturing news, they're no worse than the British newspapers.

 

[Shazza]

There is probably a lot of information that the public are not privvy to yet, so as not to hinder the investigation, but if you have been posting about this case from the beginning, there has been evidence that some of the latest posters have not seen, I suggest to those posters you read all the threads on Madelaines disappearance before you keep saying that evidence is needed to prove what other posters are saying.

A lot of what we say is our opinion or our gut feeling which we are allowed to share here, but we say that after reading evidence, seeing the actions of the McCanns, not knowing all the facts because people who were there cant get their stories straight.

There are so many inconsistencies in this case, of course we are going to speculate with the evidence throughout all the threads in this case.
Sometimes posters just give their theory of what could have happened, but that doesnt mean it did, it is just their opinion. The one thing we all have in common is the SAFETY OF MADELAINE.

So all the posters who want evidence please read the whole threads, there are photos, maps, reports from the LE, the media and the McCanns.
See if you dont come up with some of the conclusions a lot of posters here have, that the McCanns were maybe somehow involved beside leaving their children alone.

 

[Shazza]

Okay, I will agree with you that bias motivates some writers in the media. I am even willing to agree that the Portuguese press may be writing articles with an unflattering point of view about the McCanns because they're tired of their country being portrayed negatively by them and their friends. Very few people like their region or country criticized and pointed at as some place lax in arresting and prosecuting criminals.

For instance, we know the McCanns claimed early on, even though they deny it now, that the PJ was inept and handling Madeleine's disappearance wrong. They demanded that information from the PJ's investigation be released to the public because they felt certain clues were important to apprehend the person responsible, and the PJ capitulated to them.

So there may be some bias in the Portuguese media against the McCanns that is flavoring their reporting. But if we're going to accuse them of manufacturing news, they're no worse than the British newspapers.

Good Post Calikid....one other thing why would the P LE put the friends of the McCanns in the same room as Murat to find out who was telling the truth. That doesnt sound like the right policing protocol to me.

 

[CaliKid]

Sure the child is a victim but if the parents did not harm the child then they are victims as well and no ones anger at their perceived lack of parenting skills changes that fact. The child is gone. What more can any of us do in anger towards that will hurt them more than that? I say find the child and let the family begin to heal and then look at what factors contributed to her being stolen and take whatever actions are appropriate at that time. The thief who stole this child did the crime and the poor child and her poor parents are victims and we should not shift a bullseye onto the parents backs just becasue we have not yet found the true thief who took the child.

Victim: "a person who suffers from a destructive or injurious action or agency: . ."

When someone steals your child that does you harm and is a grievous injury to your whole household. Parents who have lost a child can probably tell you that it is a great injury that hurts.

Maybe I'm more cynical than most, but I have a difficult time finding sympathy for a parent who puts their child into harms' way. IMO, it's much easier to feel badly for parents whose child was abducted through no fault of their own. The mothers and fathers of the Groene children, Jessica Lunsford, Reachelle Smith, Sophia Tennis- these are the parents who have my empathy.

 

[colomom]

I will never, ever, in a million years...understand the McCanns.

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0eLp9AydH6di6/610x.jpg

Don't ask me where it came from or when it was taken because I have no idea.

 

[Shazza]

Maybe I'm more cynical than most, but I have a difficult time finding sympathy for a parent who puts their child into harms' way. IMO, it's much easier to feel badly for parents whose child was abducted through no fault of their own. The mothers and fathers of the Groene children, Jessica Lunsford, Reachelle Smith, Sophia Tennis- these are the parents who have my empathy.

Bravo CaliKid...:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[CaliKid]

Unfortunately, Trino, I believe that to let the McCanns get off without official investigation is to condone their behavior. Maybe now is not the time, but I'd say some time in the not-to-distant future it should be looked into.

An "error in parenting" is neglecting to send a coat with your child to school on a chilly day or forgetting to give him vitamins. What the McCanns did was premeditated neglect.

Welcome, jacobean

 

[Shazza]

I will never, ever, in a million years...understand the McCanns.

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0eLp9AydH6di6/610x.jpg

Don't ask me where it came from or when it was taken because I have no idea.

Why are they smiling? This is another example as to why I do not like the McCanns. Why would you smile holding up a T Shirt with a picture of your missing daughter on it. If it were me I wouldnt even have my photo taken with the shirt, they dont need to see the parents, this is all staged, OMG, they could have just put a photo of the T Shirt and where they can get them from, but oh no, just another way to get their mug shots in the media. LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT ME. GM and KM go and crawl back under the rock from where you came.:furious:

 

[CaliKid]

Was this child taken, we dont know that the child was taken, there is no concrete evidence that that is what happened, the parents could have been involved so your saying if the parents were involved in Madelaines disappearance that they are still victims, I dont think so. I am not saying that the parents did do anything else with Madelaine except leave her alone which put her in harms way, but no one knows yet what has happened to her. It is all speculation at this point as to what has happened to Madelaine. But the parents are not the victims, they could be the perpetrators, we dont know that they are not involved.

But there is evidence the parents put their children in harms way, and they have lied about what happened that night.... how can they be called victims. This all started because of them.

The neglect and changing testimony is what makes it hard for me to feel sorry for the McCanns. The forced door and window turned into an unlocked door. A few yards away with an unobstructed line of sight became more than 100 yards- across 2 parking lots and a pool and behind a wall. And now they've reverted to a solid "50 yards" fib. They can't even get their stories straight about how often the children were checked on and by whom.

There has been more evidence against the parents than anyone else, their parenting skills are in question, not only do they leave their children alone at night, but they are put into daycare most for most of their holiday in Portugal, why would a parent put their children in a daycare everyday on a family holiday, this is the time that you would spend quality time with your kids, as I assume they work long hours being in the medical profession, and they are sent to daycare whilst they work, so the parenting skill come into question imo.
I do not see these parents as victims, but at fault. If we ever find out the truth and the parents are not anymore involved than they already are I will eat humble pie, but in saying that if they are not involved other than leaving their kids alone they should be charged with child endangerment, and I have never heard of a victim being charged for a crime they made possible.

For Madeleine's sake mostly, but also for her parents', I wish with all my heart that the McCanns had left their children at home in Leicester and gotten away by themselves if they wanted a vacation. Seeing as how they don't appear to have spent much time together as a family, I don't know why they didn't.

 

[CaliKid]

If the child is never found or is found dead (but not dead by the parents hands) I think that is punishment enough for any poor parenting error. How can one do more to a grieving parent who has lost a child than the loss itself has already done to them?

If she is found alive then I think after a certain amount of time is allowed for the family to reunite charges could be brought if L.E. thinks charges should be brought for poor parenting that day that she disappeared. One should not try to bring charges in a case that is incomplete.

I would guess that they are not prostrating themselves asking for forgiveness on leaving the children on legal advice - because of the Portuguese law about unattended children.

Great for anyone who thinks they should face charges in a Portuguese court immediately - but perhaps the needs of the younger children might outway their need to make a public statement at the moment.

If they make a public statment, the Portuguese police may be forced to act, which would not be in anyone's interests at the moment.

It is my understanding (which is possibly wrong), that to charge the parents with neglect now would force them to testify about what happened on May 3. But testifying is out because they're not allowed to talk about the investigation into Madeleine's disappearance. So whatever the UK or Portugal does about the neglect charges will have to wait.

 

[Shazza]

Hi CaliKid and Colomom, I need a break, will be back later. Keep up the great sleuthing.

 

[CaliKid]

No matter how many stories I read about RM, I have never felt that he is responsible, but I could be wrong, it would not be the first time. My "gut" tells me that he is a opportunist and like those kids in school that always wanted attention and voluntered to help the teacher. He gives me the creeps but not in a "kidnapper/predator" way.

The article quoted his mother:
"She insisted he did not leave the villa between finishing his evening meal and going to bed.
A Portuguese newspaper reported that phone records between 8pm and midnight back her claim. But police say it does not prove he was there all night."

"The McCanns' friends Fiona Payne and Rachael Oldfield say they saw him outside Madeleine's apartment at 11.45pm, soon after she went missing. Another pal, Russell O'Brien, says he saw Murat at 1am."

Seems to me that he heard/saw all the police activity at the Ocean Club and walked over to check it out. His shifty alibi is probably due to his fear that the police were going to pin it on him. Rather than saying he was with his girlfriend he changed it to being with his mom. And the phone records (?) confirm that??? Another puzzle....

Rather than trying to figure out why RM was seen after Maddy's dissapearance, I want to know what Gerry McCann was doing on the back side of the apartment, near the children's bedroom window, when Jeremy Wilkins came upon him. This happened just before Jane Tanner reported seeing a man carrying a child. That meeting is referenced in the SOL article (here is one link: http://www.geocities.com/hallsofmirrors/SOL.html). If he was checking on the children then why not climb the stairs at the front and enter through the french doors which they said they left open? Why go around to the back? And the time is wierd. GM supposedly left to check the kids at 9:05PM and Jane Tanner saw the "man with the child" at about 9:15PM but the encounter between Jeremy Wilkins and GM would have been about 9:10PM? Jeremy said he never saw "the man".
And then Matthew Oldfield shows up to check the kids just a few minutes later? Why? And he saw the kids sleeping?

This is the one part of the whole story that just bugs me to no end.

WHY HAVEN'T LIE DETECTOR TESTS BEEN ADMINISTERED?? ON EVERYBODY??

:waitasec: :waitasec:

Unfortunately, Portugal doesn't use polygraphs. And the link above doesn't work, btw.

Jane Tanner's reports of seeing a strange man carrying Madeleine doesn't ring true for another reason. Mathew Oldfield claims to have checked on the children at 9:30 after JT did and says he saw them asleep.

 

[docwho3]

. . .However, the Sky website says:

'Three of the McCann's party were able to identify Robert Murat as he had been confronted with allegations he had been seen "peeking into" the family's holiday apartment in Portugal. . .

For several reasons it would appear that mr murat is a main focal point for the L.E. looking into the case. I think the wikipedia website lists some interesting info in that regard and seemingly does a fair job of doing timelines and such, although I recommend checking news sources and other sources of info for consistency and accuracy as much as one is able.

. . .Edit: It appears, from another website, that they claimed they saw him AFTER the loss had been reported. But why would anyone, who has just snatched a child, return to the scene of the crime so soon after the event? It would seem a very reckless thing to do.

(Please forgive me if I tell you stuff you already know.)
Reading cases at websleuths has allowed me to learn many of the actions taken by the perps in those cases. One thing I have learned is that some perps will engage in very risky behavior such as snatching a young woman out of a parking lot full of people (in broad daylight) right after a track and field practice or, as in the current case here, where someone evidently took a child from a fairly busy sort of area.

It is also not unheard of for perps to try in some way to either insert themselves into the investigation in some way or to stay near to the family left behind and keep tabs on what is going on, in some places they are present when L.E. arrives on the scene to investigate and sometimes they even attend funerals for the victim after a body has been found. I have known where L.E. had to go back over news coverage and amateur video tapes of such events to look for the face of a suspect in both arson and murder cases. To me mr murat's actions after the event are consistent with those of the perps in some cases and so do nothing to rule him out as a suspect. That being said, I have no favorite theory yet as to who or what happened to this child.

General comment for readers: I will try to post some coments about the case in general for those interested. I do not yet have a favorite theory and so far I am working on several possible scenarios and trying to see which has the most puzzle pieces fit.

 

[CaliKid]

Back to my post on the need for them to be completely honest about what happened that night. If they are trying to cover their butts by twisting times and actions because they are worried about being prosecuted....whaaaaa

too bad for them. They are not doing Madeleine any favors or LE who is trying to solve this case. Do they want to avoid jail or get their daughter back????

Admit you screwed up and use it as an example to other parents.

I have no problem with people saying someone involved in the case lied if they can post links to show it is so.

docwho3, if you go back to earlier threads about Madeleine, you'll find all sorts of sources, especially in the early days of her disappearance. Many of the news articles that pointed out the parents' inconsistencies are so old you may not be able to access them.

Evidence is a good thing to base a theory on.

For those who think the parents were the perps of the girls disappearance: Has anyone figured what they did with the body and in what time frame they disposed of it? (That's an honest question and not a challenge thing.)

For those who think someone other than the parents were involved why, and how was it done and where is the missing girl?

IMO, there are a few reasons why the parents seem suspicious, the greatest being that they insist it was a kidnapping. Like a child of almost four, who has awakened at least once that week, is incapable of going through an unlocked door and getting lost?

But let's assume that Madeleine was abducted. You're Kate McCann, and at 10:00 you walk into your apartment to check on your three children. Oh my gosh! Your oldest daughter is gone! What is happening internally? Your "fight or flight" instinct sends adrenaline pumping through your system, your parental gut intuition to protect your children kicks in, and you need help. Thinking one of your kids has been taken by a stranger, would you leave the other two alone in the apartment? No, even in a panicky situation a responsible parent would either get on the phone, call out to people in the apartments nearby or take the twins with you.

One question that has been asked over and over is, when was Madeleine last seen by somebody other than her parents or their friends? We're assuming it would at least be late afternoon when she was picked up from the creche. The parents went out to dinner around 8:30.

IF the McCanns are involved, I think the death was accidental. It's been suggested that, because people around the apartment were allegedly complaining about the children crying for their parents on the other nights they went out and left them alone, maybe one of them sedated Madeleine and overdosed her. This is an idea, not based on any evidence.

IF there was some sort of accident that resulted in Madeleine's death, her parents may have panicked, figuring they would be blamed somehow. If Madeleine overdosed on a sedative the parents would probably stand to lose their medical licenses.

The sticky part of this scenario is the amount of time they'd have to dispose of Madeleine's body and where to put it. It also calls into play a possible conspiracy theory where all the friends were in on it, but that sounds weird, though not totally unbelievable. There have been unconfirmed reports that GM was seen dumping a large black bag in a trash bin behind a restaurant.

If the parents are involved it could be as logical as checking the landfill or using specialized equipment to look for her body in the hills above town. Even if the McCanns didn't hurt Madeleine and she was killed by a pedophile/kidnapper, that's where I think she is.

 

[docwho3]

. . . IMO, it's much easier to feel badly for parents whose child was abducted through no fault of their own. . .

If we only love those who are easy to love what good are we? Any parent who has had a child stolen deserves to have us work towards finding that child without "dissing" them all along the way, (if they did not do the crime against the child.)

 

[docwho3]

. . .docwho3, if you go back to earlier threads about Madeleine, you'll find all sorts of sources, especially in the early days of her disappearance. Many of the news articles that pointed out the parents' inconsistencies are so old you may not be able to access them.
. . .

I just found this post I am replying to and need to read it more thoroughly before responding in detail. For the moment I will say you raise some interesting points which I hope to better comment on after reading the post more thoroughly.

 

[CaliKid]

...try removing the ) (parenthesis) at the end of the url...

"violated community guidlines":waitasec:
Where did that come from?

It works for me.

Has anyone heard of what GM plans to do with the "facts" he picked up on his "fact finding" mission to here in the US? I know he kept talking about how the US has this legislation and that legislation and what the centers do for missing kids... but he never applied it to the personal level of his world and how it will be reflected on finding Maddie. Or am I missing something?

I don't know what he found out or how he used the information. The one good thing that might come out of Madeleine's disappearance is if it spurs the countries of the EU to get together and adopt specific guidelines on how to search for missing and abducted children and prosecute kidnappers and pedophiles. There was a huge consortium of first ladies, including Laura Bush from the US, last week in Paris for this purpose.

If this is true, and he was peeping and spotted by all three witnesses - who all must have been near enough to see his eye - why didn't someone go to sit with the children?'

Edit: It appears, from another website, that they claimed they saw him AFTER the loss had been reported. But why would anyone, who has just snatched a child, return to the scene of the crime so soon after the event? It would seem a very reckless thing to do.

If Murat was at the resort and the friends saw him acting suspicious, it begs the same question people have asked of Jane Tanner- why did she not report her suspicions (of the stranger carrying a child in pajamas) to the rest of the McCann party before he was accused.

If Murat took Madeleine, the smartest thing for him to do would've been to say he heard the commotion at the resort when everyone was looking for her and go over to help. That puts him on the spot for an "innocent" reason, and nobody would be questioning why he was there. So either Murat is very, very stupid to try to fake-alibi himself away from the apartment, or he had nothing to do with Madeleine's disappearance.

 

[CaliKid]

I will never, ever, in a million years...understand the McCanns.

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0eLp9AydH6di6/610x.jpg

Don't ask me where it came from or when it was taken because I have no idea.

I think the man on the right is GM's uncle, Brian. I heard that there was a soccer team that put images of Madeleine on their shirts, but these don't look like soccer jerseys.

Why would you smile holding up a T Shirt with a picture of your missing daughter on it. If it were me I wouldnt even have my photo taken with the shirt.:furious:

Agree 100%.