CONVICTION OVERTURNED MD - Hae Min Lee, 17, Baltimore, 13 Jan 1999

[nattyroo]

Before someone, or several people, attack this post, please be advised that I won’t be baited into responding. At the end of the day, this just isn’t that important to me, certainly not important enough to compromise my serenity over. I thought Serial was an absorbing (albeit shamelessly biased, despite Sarah Koenig’s claims to the contrary) podcast. I listened to it, and I even re-listened to it. For what it’s worth, I do think Adnan Syed is guilty, but I don’t expect that opinion to weigh heavily on anyone, least of all Adnan Syed.
However, I am a huge fan of websleuths and, as I listened to Serial, I couldn’t help but wonder what the members thought of the podcast. I’ve read several pages of the thread, but I lack the commitment to read all 36 (at the time of this entry). During my second listening of Serial, something caught my attention and I was curious if it has been mentioned in this forum. In Episode 5 (“Route Talk&#8221, Koenig is reading from the letter to her from Syed in which he challenges her to try to make it to the Best Buy from school by 2:36, which is when the police assert that he called Jay to come pick him up after the murder of Hae Min Lee. In his own words, in this letter, he asks how he was supposed to get from the school to the “lobby of the Best Buy” in order to make the call. I thought this was strange, because neither the police, nor Jay, nor anyone else has mentioned that the phone was in the lobby. At trial, the pay phone was always described as being outside. When making a sketch for the police, Jay drew the payphone outside of Best Buy on the sidewalk in front. As listeners know, much was made of this phone at the Best Buy. No one interviewed remembered a pay phone being outside of Best Buy and no pictures or building plans were produced that showed the pay phone outside. However, in the last episode, Koenig has an update concerning the phone at the Best Buy. Blueprints for the store showed that there was a pay phone……in the lobby. It just seems strange to me that Adnan would have known this when no one else was aware that the phone was in the lobby. In fact, it was an almost stipulated fact that the pay phone, if it even existed, was in front of the Best Buy. I can’t help but wonder if it was a case of Adnan inadvertently providing one too many details.
Like others, I have doubts that the actual call to Jay occurred at 2:36 pm. My only point is that it seems odd to me that Adnan knew the location of the mysterious Best Buy payphone

 

[Aleph]

Great find.


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[edgedweller]

Before someone, or several people, attack this post, please be advised that I won’t be baited into responding. At the end of the day, this just isn’t that important to me, certainly not important enough to compromise my serenity over. I thought Serial was an absorbing (albeit shamelessly biased, despite Sarah Koenig’s claims to the contrary) podcast. I listened to it, and I even re-listened to it. For what it’s worth, I do think Adnan Syed is guilty, but I don’t expect that opinion to weigh heavily on anyone, least of all Adnan Syed.
However, I am a huge fan of websleuths and, as I listened to Serial, I couldn’t help but wonder what the members thought of the podcast. I’ve read several pages of the thread, but I lack the commitment to read all 36 (at the time of this entry). During my second listening of Serial, something caught my attention and I was curious if it has been mentioned in this forum. In Episode 5 (“Route Talk”), Koenig is reading from the letter to her from Syed in which he challenges her to try to make it to the Best Buy from school by 2:36, which is when the police assert that he called Jay to come pick him up after the murder of Hae Min Lee. In his own words, in this letter, he asks how he was supposed to get from the school to the “lobby of the Best Buy” in order to make the call. I thought this was strange, because neither the police, nor Jay, nor anyone else has mentioned that the phone was in the lobby. At trial, the pay phone was always described as being outside. When making a sketch for the police, Jay drew the payphone outside of Best Buy on the sidewalk in front. As listeners know, much was made of this phone at the Best Buy. No one interviewed remembered a pay phone being outside of Best Buy and no pictures or building plans were produced that showed the pay phone outside. However, in the last episode, Koenig has an update concerning the phone at the Best Buy. Blueprints for the store showed that there was a pay phone……in the lobby. It just seems strange to me that Adnan would have known this when no one else was aware that the phone was in the lobby. In fact, it was an almost stipulated fact that the pay phone, if it even existed, was in front of the Best Buy. I can’t help but wonder if it was a case of Adnan inadvertently providing one too many details.
Like others, I have doubts that the actual call to Jay occurred at 2:36 pm. My only point is that it seems odd to me that Adnan knew the location of the mysterious Best Buy payphone

Most pay phones are inside, usually in lobbies, no? He's made an assumption. Or he has actually used that pay phone in the past. Doesn't make him a murderer.


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[Tiger09]

The Best Buy was near the school. Hypothetically, if I were in prison, I'd be retracing everything about my life at that time and thinking about was there a phone and where was it? What else is there for him to do?

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[cujenn81]

Deleted: I referenced something I misread. My apologies.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

Before someone, or several people, attack this post, please be advised that I won’t be baited into responding. At the end of the day, this just isn’t that important to me, certainly not important enough to compromise my serenity over. I thought Serial was an absorbing (albeit shamelessly biased, despite Sarah Koenig’s claims to the contrary) podcast. I listened to it, and I even re-listened to it. For what it’s worth, I do think Adnan Syed is guilty, but I don’t expect that opinion to weigh heavily on anyone, least of all Adnan Syed.
However, I am a huge fan of websleuths and, as I listened to Serial, I couldn’t help but wonder what the members thought of the podcast. I’ve read several pages of the thread, but I lack the commitment to read all 36 (at the time of this entry). During my second listening of Serial, something caught my attention and I was curious if it has been mentioned in this forum. In Episode 5 (“Route Talk”), Koenig is reading from the letter to her from Syed in which he challenges her to try to make it to the Best Buy from school by 2:36, which is when the police assert that he called Jay to come pick him up after the murder of Hae Min Lee. In his own words, in this letter, he asks how he was supposed to get from the school to the “lobby of the Best Buy” in order to make the call. I thought this was strange, because neither the police, nor Jay, nor anyone else has mentioned that the phone was in the lobby. At trial, the pay phone was always described as being outside. When making a sketch for the police, Jay drew the payphone outside of Best Buy on the sidewalk in front. As listeners know, much was made of this phone at the Best Buy. No one interviewed remembered a pay phone being outside of Best Buy and no pictures or building plans were produced that showed the pay phone outside. However, in the last episode, Koenig has an update concerning the phone at the Best Buy. Blueprints for the store showed that there was a pay phone……in the lobby. It just seems strange to me that Adnan would have known this when no one else was aware that the phone was in the lobby. In fact, it was an almost stipulated fact that the pay phone, if it even existed, was in front of the Best Buy. I can’t help but wonder if it was a case of Adnan inadvertently providing one too many details.
Like others, I have doubts that the actual call to Jay occurred at 2:36 pm. My only point is that it seems odd to me that Adnan knew the location of the mysterious Best Buy payphone

Cristina Gutierrez mentions the pay phone in the lobby of Best Buy in the opening statements of the trial. It wasn't actually the mystery SK made it out to be. Honestly, she missed a LOT. I really think that's part of the reason she doesn't like Reddit - many ordinary people have done a far better job investigating this than she and her team did.

She states here on page 150 "There's a single telephone right inside that entrance open to the public."

https://m.box.com/shared_item/https://app.box.com/s/rqtd0mle7kqpy0e0x842f8dhycjoee2m

 

[watergirl62]

Does anyone know if Adman had a cell phone prior to the new one he had the day Hae was murdered? If he did not, that might be a factor in his knowing about the Best Buy payphone. IMO

 

[MzOpinion8d]

Does anyone know if Adman had a cell phone prior to the new one he had the day Hae was murdered? If he did not, that might be a factor in his knowing about the Best Buy payphone. IMO

It was his first cell phone. He had a pager before that, I think.

 

[ISeeSociopaths]

Cristina Gutierrez mentions the pay phone in the lobby of Best Buy in the opening statements of the trial. It wasn't actually the mystery SK made it out to be. Honestly, she missed a LOT. I really think that's part of the reason she doesn't like Reddit - many ordinary people have done a far better job investigating this than she and her team did.


https://m.box.com/shared_item/https://app.box.com/s/rqtd0mle7kqpy0e0x842f8dhycjoee2m

Gutierrez was deceased before Reddit ever existed.

 

[missy_g]

Gutierrez was deceased before Reddit ever existed.

I think they meant that SK doesn't like Reddit.


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[Elisaa444]

Gutierrez was deceased before Reddit ever existed.

I think MzOpinion8d was referring to Sarah Koenig, host of Serial in that post. I could be mistaken but she references "SK" in that second sentence. Also, having listened to Serial I agree with MzOpinion8d regarding why Sarah Koenig may not like Reddit. I also agree that she missed a lot. IMO.

 

[Elisaa444]

I think they meant that SK doesn't like Reddit.


Sent By Owl

Jinx Except you actually made your post ten minutes before I did. I have too many tabs open and often forget to refresh my page. I'm not crazy (yes I am)

 

[missy_g]

Jinx Except you actually made your post ten minutes before I did. I have too many tabs open and often forget to refresh my page. I'm not crazy (yes I am)

No problem. I'm new to this which IMO is crazy because I live in MD. I'm about 90 miles from Baltimore (in western MD). I have never heard anything about this case until last night and it's been on my mind ever since.
I've been researching all I can but it seems like I have to start writing everything down. What a bizarre case!


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[missy_g]

Is there any other evidence in this case besides Jay's testimony and the cell tower pings?

I thought I read something about DNA under Hae's nails and a bloody shirt that was laying on her car seat. Has any of this ever been tested?

 

[MzOpinion8d]

I think MzOpinion8d was referring to Sarah Koenig, host of Serial in that post. I could be mistaken but she references "SK" in that second sentence. Also, having listened to Serial I agree with MzOpinion8d regarding why Sarah Koenig may not like Reddit. I also agree that she missed a lot. IMO.

You're right. Sarah Koenig doesn't like reddit. The original post referred to Sarah's "search" for the pay phone that she made an episode out of, but the reality is Adnan's attorney Cristina Gutierrez was aware of the existence of a pay phone at Best Buy, acknowledged it in opening arguments at the trial, and there was no mystery there to begin with.

So either Sarah K didn't read the documents carefully, or she internationally led people to believe there was controversy about the pay phone when there wasn't any.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

Is there any other evidence in this case besides Jay's testimony and the cell tower pings?

I thought I read something about DNA under Hae's nails and a bloody shirt that was laying on her car seat. Has any of this ever been tested?

There was evidence collected from under Hae's nails that has never been tested. There was also a rape kit obtained but it also has not been tested, so it's still not certain that she wasn't sexually assaulted.

The shirt had some bloody fluid on it that was tested and found to be from Hae. I believe the shirt was an old shirt of Hae's brother's that she kept in the car as a rag. I don't think any other evidence was found on the shirt.

Adnan's fingerprints were found in the car, but it's known he was in the car on many occasions so that's not useful evidence. There was a map in the car and a page was torn from it that had Leakin Park on it. Adnan's palm print was found on that torn out page, and it was presented as evidence, indicating he used the map to get to the burial site. However, the page also included the majority of the area around their high school as well as the park, and once again a palm print could have been there from Adnan being in the car at any time.

There were two fibers found with her body that were not matched to anything.

So essentially there was no useful physical evidence.

The state's case is basically as follows:

Motive: Hae broke up with Adnan and Adnan was angry because he had broken his religious vows in order to be with her, but she had scorned him and besmirched his honor, so she had to die.

Opportunity: Adnan lent his car to Jay under the guise of Jay going to get a birthday present for Stephanie, but really it was so Adnan could ask Hae for a ride after school. At least two witnesses testified they heard him ask her for a ride after school, while they were all in morning class together. Hae said yes.

After school ended at 2:15, Adnan convinced Hae to drive to the Best Buy parking lot, where they had supposedly previously had sex, and he then proceeded to strangle her and place her body in the trunk of her car. Adnan then used the pay phone to call his own cell phone, which Jay had, and say "She's dead, come and get me." Jay picked Adnan up and drove him back to school so he could be seen at track practice as an alibi.

After track practice, there are several versions of what happened and where they went, but the short version is they ended up at Leakin Park around 7 pm, where Jay stood by while Adnan buried Hae and then followed Adnan to the lot where Adnan abandoned her car, and then they met up with Jenn. Jay went with Jen and Adnan left.

Supposedly, Adnan admitted asking Hae for a ride but then later lied to an investigator and said he did not ask her for a ride. Hae's friend Debbie saw Adnan and Hae after school, still at the school, and heard Hae tell Adnan she couldn't give him a ride after all because something had come up. Adnan said no problem, then Hae left. She was supposedly seen by herself, buying a snack and then leaving.

Him lying about asking for a ride is problematic, but understandable considering he was 17 and scared. However, it doesn't matter because there's a witness saying Hae told him he couldn't have a ride, and another witness saying Hae was alone when she bought her snack. No one saw them leave together.

On top of that, Asia saw Adnan at the library a little while later, before he went to track practice. His attorney never contacted her to verify this alibi, however.

The track coach testified that he recalled talking to Adnan at practice one day, a warm day where they practiced outside, and they spoke about Adnan leading prayers at the mosque during Ramadan. From research about the weather it's been determined that day (1/13) is the only possible day it was warm enough to practice outside, so that seems to be a pretty solid alibi.

The lividity pattern on Hae's body indicates it had to have been flat and face down for about 8-12 hours after her death, which is not consistent with the position in which she was buried. It is also not consistent with a 7 pm burial time. In an interview after Serial, Jay said the burial actually happened around midnight.

Assuming she died around 3 pm, it's possible the lividity could have been fixed by that time. However, rigor mortis would have set in by then also, and moving her body would have been difficult, especially by only one person. Burial would have also had to involve "breaking" the rigor.

Adnan's cell phone records are what led to Jennifer, because so many calls were made to her that day. She then told cops it was Jay who had been calling, and that's when he was interviewed and started telling various versions of his story. He was given a very shady plea deal and never served ANY time for being an accessory. His attorney was recently interviewed on Undisclosed and said Jay was facing being charged with first degree murder if he didn't take the plea deal and testify that Adnan killed her.

I'm missing a lot of details here but that's about as brief I can make this summary. If you have other questions, I'll try to find the answers. The reddit sub that is public is toxic. There's a reddit sub for Undisclosed which is better, but obviously largely biased towards innocence.

I'm not sure the truth will ever be known here, but I'm hopeful that we can someday get close.

 

[Tiger09]

I don't buy anyone driving around with a dead body for hours. Not a teenage boy who allegedly cared enough about besmerched honor to kill an ex.

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[missy_g]

I'm on episode 6 of Serial and honestly at this point, Adnan and Jay sound guilty as hell.
If they aren't guilty then they know more than what they're saying.
Something that majorly stands out is if Adnan and Jay aren't really friends, then why did Adnan give him his phone and car? I know he supposedly used the vehicle to go to the mall but I don't think I would loan my drug dealer my car.
Honestly I think they were better friends/acquaintances then they want everyone to believe.
These are my thoughts so far.


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[edgedweller]

I'm on episode 6 of Serial and honestly at this point, Adnan and Jay sound guilty as hell.
If they aren't guilty then they know more than what they're saying.
Something that majorly stands out is if Adnan and Jay aren't really friends, then why did Adnan give him his phone and car? I know he supposedly used the vehicle to go to the mall but I don't think I would loan my drug dealer my car.
Honestly I think they were better friends/acquaintances then they want everyone to believe.
These are my thoughts so far.


Sent By Owl

Supposedly because Adnan felt bad that Jay had not bought Stephanie (his girlfriend and a good friend of Adnan) a birthday present (her birthday was on the 13th). So it was a goodwill gesture so that Stephanie would actually get a gift from Jay.
I read somewhere, or maybe it was on Undisclosed, that Adnan did not give Jay permission to use the cellphone. It was just in the glovebox for safekeeping, presumably because they weren't allowed phones in school. I agree that Jay and Adnan seem more than acquaintances, but I think their 'friendship' was based around buying and smoking weed. I think they had little in common besides that.


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[Aleph]

I don't think that Hae was sexually assaulted. When her body was found, she was still wearing panty hose. Panty hose is difficult enough to put on oneself, when alive. I don't see a murderer replacing panty hose on someone's body, and we know that if she was raped, it wasn't when she was conscious/alive. No defensive wounds.


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