MD MD - Woodstock, WhtFem 35-60, UP11923, found alive/injured in a field, died Sep'71, Jul'71

[dorothyland]

There are no similarities in looks but there are a lot of other similarities. I'm questioning what toll 3 years, possible needed medical attention, and alcohol may have had. Had the medical issue caused her to to be unable to communicate somehow and be taken in by someone/someplace for the 3 years? The height is only 1 inch off, the weight is off but certainly not impossible if she had been on her own, ill, or not being taken care of properly. Had the Hydrocephali been the reason for her brain surgery? Hair is Lt/Brown vs blonde. Eyes match. hysterectomy scar vs ovary/tube removal. Both have had a broken nose. Tried to compare nose and ears but unable to find a clear pic of either for Madeline (tilting head, scarf etc). Madeline did have extensive dental work and the UID appears to be edentulous from the autopsy photo - though not stated. I'm not sure what the result would be if they hadn't been taken care of. And the distance. I have no idea how she would end up in Maryland

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/428dfca.html
https://www.findthemissing.org/cases/7003/

I think there are some similarities.

Her alcoholism absolutely could have affected her appearance, especially if she was already sick. I've met many recovering alcoholics and addicts that look 20 years older than they are due to a hard life.



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[sunnynz]

I think there are some similarities.

Her alcoholism absolutely could have affected her appearance, especially if she was already sick. I've met many recovering alcoholics and addicts that look 20 years older than they are due to a hard life.



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Yes, I can see the similarities too. They both have DNA in the system so once Jane Doe's tests are completed they would pick this up if a match I would think?

 

[dorothyland]

Yes, I can see the similarities too. They both have DNA in the system so once Jane Doe's tests are completed they would pick this up if a match I would think?

From what I can gather, even if DNA is in the system, someone has to request a comparison and it's not automatically compared.


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[sunnynz]

From what I can gather, even if DNA is in the system, someone has to request a comparison and it's not automatically compared.


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Not if they both have DNA in Namus - they will be automatically compared. So if DNA tests are complete for both subjects then they are not a match.

 

[Bit of hope]

Not if they both have DNA in Namus - they will be automatically compared. So if DNA tests are complete for both subjects then they are not a match.

Hi there...something about this Jane Doe touched me...she was found on the dying date of my mum(15-7). I was also thinking about the woman previously named; Ms Babcock. There is something with her eyes, but my gut feeling says no.

Namus says about the DNA: Complete - Insufficient DNA for profiling, so a simple match is not possible.

Is it because of the angel of the picture? Her ears seem to be different?

 

[carbuff]

Hi there...something about this Jane Doe touched me...she was found on the dying date of my mum(15-7). I was also thinking about the woman previously named; Ms Babcock. There is something with her eyes, but my gut feeling says no.

Namus says about the DNA: Complete - Insufficient DNA for profiling, so a simple match is not possible.

Is it because of the angel of the picture? Her ears seem to be different?

It's possible they have a partial profile that can be compared by hand to eliminate some possibilities.

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[dorothyland]

Not if they both have DNA in Namus - they will be automatically compared. So if DNA tests are complete for both subjects then they are not a match.

This is from the NamUs FAQ page:

"How does the cross searching tool in NamUs work?
In July 2009, the system was upgraded and now automatically searches missing persons records against the unidentified persons records, providing side-by-side comparisons. Cases with similarities are automatically presented to the investigator, reducing research time and allowing the investigator to exclude those that do not match. If there are cases that offer solid potential for a match, the investigator will engage forensic services to conduct further identification testing."

The part that says the investigator needs to engage forensic services is what makes me think they don't automatically test DNA samples against each other. I can't find anything on their website that says it does. I could've sworn I read somewhere else on Websleuths that requests have to be made.


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[Bit of hope]

Response on questions asked by me according to dna testing from Michael Nance, (Regional System Administrator

National Missing and Unidentified Persons System(NamUs)


The relationship between NamUs and CODIS is confusing at best.


The FBI maintains the Combined DNA Index System (CODIS). Any CODISlab can submit DNA into CODIS. State law enforcement crime labs are CODIScertified and can enter DNA into CODIS. The University of North TexasCenter for Human Identification (UNTCHI) is the Texas State Crime Lab. UNTCHI also does DNA for missing and unidentified persons for any law enforcementagency in the United States. Not everyone uses UNTCHI however. Forexample California, by state law, sends their missing/unidentified DNA to theirCalifornia state crime lab. There are other agencies who use their ownlabs as well. Ultimately all DNA arrives at national CODIS in WashingtonD.C.

UNTCHI and NamUs are both managed by the University of North TexasHealth Science Center. While NamUs advocates for and assists agencies tocollect DNA and to get it into CODIS, CODIS does not communicate back toNamUs. CODIS only reports back to the law enforcement agency submittingDNA of any association. If there is no association there is no reportback.

NamUs staff members at the University of North Texas Health Sciencecenter work to update NamUs with DNA profiles completed at UNTCHI. Oftenthis is not up to date or comprehensive. When there is an association andan identification made then those NamUs records are archived. It isalmost impossible to go into NamUs and manually complete DNA exclusions forevery permutation possible in NamUs’ MP and UP databases. Also withoutcomplete DNA information it would be foolhardy to make exclusions.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

I would put her between 66-72 yrs old.

I'm not sure I would. In the hospital photo there is no evidence at all of wrinkles anywhere on her face, which I would very much associate with an elderly woman.

Also there's only the very smallest hint of crows' feet around her eyes, which I would associate with a middle aged to elderly woman.

While today we might expect a woman in her late 60s to still look young, people aged faster and earlier in the past due to lives generally being harder.

I'm tempted to say no older than 40, maybe 45.

 

[carbuff]

It's true her facial skin is very smooth, but her neck is sagging and wrinkled. I discount the hollow saggy skin around her eyes because that could be from the illness.

I wish they had a photo of her hands; those generally show age more accurately than the face does.

 

[SurrealisticSlumbers]

I am in agreement with carbuff, because of the sagging and general quality of the skin - looks thin and aged. The doctors, I'm sure, were able to more accurately estimate her age at the time, and this can be figured out from teeth and bones, as well.

She was definitely malnourished and possibly a victim of neglect and (out on a limb here) elder abuse. I am sticking with my original theory. But I am open to the possibility of a substance abuse problem, too....

 

[sunnynz]

Response on questions asked by me according to dna testing from Michael Nance, (Regional System Administrator

National Missing and Unidentified Persons System(NamUs)


The relationship between NamUs and CODIS is confusing at best.


The FBI maintains the Combined DNA Index System (CODIS). Any CODISlab can submit DNA into CODIS. State law enforcement crime labs are CODIScertified and can enter DNA into CODIS. The University of North TexasCenter for Human Identification (UNTCHI) is the Texas State Crime Lab. UNTCHI also does DNA for missing and unidentified persons for any law enforcementagency in the United States. Not everyone uses UNTCHI however. Forexample California, by state law, sends their missing/unidentified DNA to theirCalifornia state crime lab. There are other agencies who use their ownlabs as well. Ultimately all DNA arrives at national CODIS in WashingtonD.C.

UNTCHI and NamUs are both managed by the University of North TexasHealth Science Center. While NamUs advocates for and assists agencies tocollect DNA and to get it into CODIS, CODIS does not communicate back toNamUs. CODIS only reports back to the law enforcement agency submittingDNA of any association. If there is no association there is no reportback.

NamUs staff members at the University of North Texas Health Sciencecenter work to update NamUs with DNA profiles completed at UNTCHI. Oftenthis is not up to date or comprehensive. When there is an association andan identification made then those NamUs records are archived. It isalmost impossible to go into NamUs and manually complete DNA exclusions forevery permutation possible in NamUs’ MP and UP databases. Also withoutcomplete DNA information it would be foolhardy to make exclusions.

A more succinct version that I got recently from Dustin Driscoll at Namus: "If you see DNA marked as “Complete” for each case, they would have hit in the DNA database, so you do not need to send those matches in as they automatically search against each other." He was referring to DNA marked as complete within Namus, not other MP/UID sites.

 

[Bit of hope]

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/3627dfor.html

Faun Moulin Moon, missing since march 1 1969? The height is off (JD 5' - Faun 5"6) and no mentioning of a scar/bump on nose, but that could have occurred after she went missing.

DOB: circa 1919 - JD born between
Age: 50 - JD between 35 - 60
Race: white - JD white
Height: 5'6" - JD 5'
Weight: 130 lbs - JD
Hair: Sandy, short - JD light brown, beginning to gray
Eyes: hazel - JD brown
Scar on abdomen, very thin eyebrows - JD ovary and tube removed, would cause a scar/on picture; very thin eyebrows

 

[carbuff]

Hm, there is quite a bit of resemblance there.

 

[Any123]

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/3627dfor.html

Faun Moulin Moon, missing since march 1 1969? The height is off (JD 5' - Faun 5"6) and no mentioning of a scar/bump on nose, but that could have occurred after she went missing.

DOB: circa 1919 - JD born between
Age: 50 - JD between 35 - 60
Race: white - JD white
Height: 5'6" - JD 5'
Weight: 130 lbs - JD
Hair: Sandy, short - JD light brown, beginning to gray
Eyes: hazel - JD brown
Scar on abdomen, very thin eyebrows - JD ovary and tube removed, would cause a scar/on picture; very thin eyebrows

But doesn't that say her date birth is 1919? So she would be almost 100 years old.

 

[carbuff]

But doesn't that say her date birth is 1919? So she would be almost 100 years old.

Yeah, but she was found in 1971.

 

[Damarna]

But doesn't that say her date birth is 1919? So she would be almost 100 years old.

She died in 1971 so she'd be about 52 at that time?

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[sunnynz]

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/3627dfor.html

Faun Moulin Moon, missing since march 1 1969? The height is off (JD 5' - Faun 5"6) and no mentioning of a scar/bump on nose, but that could have occurred after she went missing.

DOB: circa 1919 - JD born between
Age: 50 - JD between 35 - 60
Race: white - JD white
Height: 5'6" - JD 5'
Weight: 130 lbs - JD
Hair: Sandy, short - JD light brown, beginning to gray
Eyes: hazel - JD brown
Scar on abdomen, very thin eyebrows - JD ovary and tube removed, would cause a scar/on picture; very thin eyebrows

I definitely see the resemblance but there are quite a few differences, plus it sounds to me like Faun sadly probably took her own life. I would tend to give it the benefit of the doubt and submit though, purely based on the resemblance.

 

[Bit of hope]

Thanks everybody for thinking with me.

Although I have also my doubts considering the circumstances surrounding Faun's disappearance, I decided to submit. Maybe she wanted to leave this world and wrote goodbye letters and such but she changed her mind and was afraid to face her children after time passed.

 

[carbuff]

That could be. We also have a number of unidentified suicides in this forum who appear to have traveled or wandered for some time before ending it all, so even if she intended to end her life, she might not have done so immediately. Or she might have just left that life to live on the road.

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