NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #11

[Darkness]

Njen, your right, it seems perfectly logical that a seasoned cross country runner could just run away from the accident scene.

Even at a slow 8 minute mile pace she could get 10 miles away in an hour & a half.

I just wonder how far off the roadway could she have gotten given the snow pack.

Where ever she stopped, then her remains are just sitting there for 10 years coming up on 11 years now.

Her back pack, her sneakers, her clothing all just sitting in a fairly small circle...........all right out in the open and never found?

Just off the roadway and never found? I don't know about that.........

 

[justagirl247]

this whole case is so odd i think with out a doubt there are lots of things that we the public have no idea about... i personally have a hard time believing she has just been somewhere out in the woods this whole time and no one has found her belongings or body yet its a possibility but I just find it hard to believe but when you look at every theory that i have ever heard about this case there is always something that dosent make any one idea fit perfectly... now with so much time passed i'm affraid alot of ideas that could have been used my be useless i truly hope answer come one day but i dont think we will know anything untill she is found or someone comes forward

 

[deca]

When people suffer from hypothermia, they often feel very hot and start to shed their clothes. A man around here started shedding his clothes at random over a few miles walk down the road before eventually succumbing to the freezing temperatures.
So, if MM did die from exposure, it is likely that her clothes were scattered around and not near her body. If someone walking in the woods found a jacket I don't think it would arouse any questions on their part.

 

[scoops]

When people suffer from hypothermia, they often feel very hot and start to shed their clothes. A man around here started shedding his clothes at random over a few miles walk down the road before eventually succumbing to the freezing temperatures.
So, if MM did die from exposure, it is likely that her clothes were scattered around and not near her body. If someone walking in the woods found a jacket I don't think it would arouse any questions on their part.

You are referring to Paradoxical Undressing: (Source Weird Universe)

Paradoxical Undressing - is a term for a phenomenon frequently seen in cases of lethal hypothermia. Shortly before death, the person will remove all their clothes, as if they were burning up, when in fact they are freezing. Because of this, people who have frozen to death are often found naked and are misidentified as victims of a violent crime.


Maura's father's own words as he referenced towards the mountains when speaking to a then relative as they were searching for Maura: (Source Tim Carpenter, Maura's older sister's ex husband)

"I remember him pointing up to the mountain and saying, 'She walked up there. We'll find her at the top. Drunk and naked.'
Why naked?"

Now, if you believe that Maura's own father was making some sort of sexual funny about his missing daughter than I have some tickets to sell you for $500 each to come view the world's smallest dog ... (A hotdog).

Just another example of Maura's father (who would have the most insight about his daughter over anyone), especially since he spent the final days of Maura's known existence with her, referencing suicide, while when the cameras were turned on, he shifted gears and stirred up the press about a local dirtbag grabbing his daughter.

When the cameras weren't on, Maura's father believed that his daughter came to the white mountains to take her own life.

He believed it (IMO) when he made the desperate call to 911, minutes after finding out his daughter abandoned her car in the white mountains.

He believed it (as recounted by Sharon Rausch) after arriving to the accident scene and being briefed by police and caught up with all the known facts (as he worried that some comments he had made in the past to his daughter's about he himself one day maybe heading for the mountains and drinking himself to death).

And he still was talking about suicide days into the searches when he made that comment to Tim Carpenter.

That is a consistent pattern (all happening off camera and away from newspaper interviews).

And IMO, that good enough evidence for myself to believe that suicide was the most likely ending scenario concerning Maura.


If Maura had been happy go lucky or at least calmed down enough (Prior to fred leaving her campus just one day before she went missing) than upon hearing that his daughter wound up in the white mountains would have come as a complete shock to Fred.

Instead, Fred was on the phone with 911 minutes after finding out, (not asking a million questions, but because he urgently had something he wanted to relay to the investigators concerning his daughter).

 

[Darkness]

I'm not ready to just shrug my shoulders and say oh well this is a suicide, must have died of exposure, move along nothing to see here.

Where are her remains? Where is the back pack? Where are her sneakers? Where are all her clothes strewn over a now large area given the paradoxical undressing?

The earth didn't just swallow her. I still think she is somewhere because somebody put her there.

 

[scoops]

I'm not ready to just shrug my shoulders and say oh well this is a suicide, must have died of exposure, move along nothing to see here.

Where are her remains? Where is the back pack? Where are her sneakers? Where are all her clothes strewn over a now large area given the paradoxical undressing?

The earth didn't just swallow her. I still think she is somewhere because somebody put her there.

Contrary to popular belief, a true search for Maura has never taken place.

Police have searched the area where Maura's car was found (on more than one occasion) and they have flown over the mountains trying to track her that way.


No organized foot searches have taken place in the mountains, because they would be too dangerous to undertake ... especially for someone that willfully went missing on their own accord.

 

[Coffeelover]

Only a one mile area around the accident site was thoroughly searched (by volunteers). I looked at the area on Google Maps and followed the roads in the area and a few of the side roads. I was really surprised at how dense the woods are along those roads for miles and miles. She could be two miles away under a big pine tree and just never have been found.

 

[Darkness]

Ok then she is in a circle bigger than a mile or two.

How far could she have gotten before stopping and then succumbing to elements.

I would think that because of the snow pack off the sides of the roads, this or these circles would mirror the roads leading away from the accident.

I mean she probably couldn't have gotten 5 miles off the sides of route 112 if she jogged away east.

She is probably close to the side of the road............does that sound reasonable?

I still have a hard time getting past that dog losing her scent a hundred feet from the crash.....I know wrong kind of dog , wrong item for scent, but if she got into a car, then all bets are off.

 

[Fireweed]

Since this has come up a few times, I want to address an assumption that I find faulty. Several people have said that if Maura was going to get help from someone, then she had her opportunity with Butch Atwood, and hence, it would make no sense for her to turn him down and then get help from someone else later. To me, it makes perfect sense why Maura would have blown off BA and then gotten help later on from a different person: she was in the process of fleeing the scene of accident and avoiding a DUI! Of course she was not going to go the BA's house. The cops would have found her there. The whole point of taking off was to avoid all that. Thus, I could easily see her jogging 7 miles or so down the road and hitching a ride with a stranger when she felt more confident that such assistance would not lead to her being arrested by the cops.

My own theory is that Maura took off and started a new life. I was thinking about her purchase at the liquor store before she left. I recall when I was 21, I would never have spent that much on booze at one time. In fact, her purchases seemed a little extravagant for a person with only $240. That is why I think she had well over $4,000 in cash. She bought that much booze because she was feeling quite flush at the time. I think it was the $4,000 that gave Maura the boost she needed to take off. It gave her the security she needed. No one would think they could go out of town for a week with just $240. That is absurd. Unless the person went camping, that money would last a night or two.

 

[Lolacat]

Since this has come up a few times, I want to address an assumption that I find faulty. Several people have said that if Maura was going to get help from someone, then she had her opportunity with Butch Atwood, and hence, it would make no sense for her to turn him down and then get help from someone else later. To me, it makes perfect sense why Maura would have blown off BA and then gotten help later on from a different person: she was in the process of fleeing the scene of accident and avoiding a DUI! Of course she was not going to go the BA's house. The cops would have found her there. The whole point of taking off was to avoid all that. Thus, I could easily see her jogging 7 miles or so down the road and hitching a ride with a stranger when she felt more confident that such assistance would not lead to her being arrested by the cops.

My own theory is that Maura took off and started a new life. I was thinking about her purchase at the liquor store before she left. I recall when I was 21, I would never have spent that much on booze at one time. In fact, her purchases seemed a little extravagant for a person with only $240. That is why I think she had well over $4,000 in cash. She bought that much booze because she was feeling quite flush at the time. I think it was the $4,000 that gave Maura the boost she needed to take off. It gave her the security she needed. No one would think they could go out of town for a week with just $240. That is absurd. Unless the person went camping, that money would last a night or two.

This is a very interesting point. Ive always found Maura's choice of alcohol rather odd. When I was a student, we all loved cocktails but could rarely afford them. I'd buy what I thought were *fancy* drinks like Baileys etc when I'd just been paid (part time job) and the rest of the month we'd buy super cheap alcohol that didnt taste that great but got the job done lol.

 

[Fireweed]

This is a very interesting point. Ive always found Maura's choice of alcohol rather odd. When I was a student, we all loved cocktails but could rarely afford them. I'd buy what I thought were *fancy* drinks like Baileys etc when I'd just been paid (part time job) and the rest of the month we'd buy super cheap alcohol that didnt taste that great but got the job done lol.

To me, a person with $240 to their name would buy the box of Franzia wine and nothing else. A person with $4,000 cash would get a bunch more stuff.

I really wish Fred would address this issue. I know he and his family must occasionally come here. Oh wait, I forgot. Even if Maura had $100,000 cash on her, it would not be "relevant" to what happened to her.

 

[2020]

I've always found her case to be one of the most bizarre. I know there are a lot of individuals that will disagree with my theory, but here it is:

I think Maura was indirectly involved in the Vasi hit and run. I think she let someone borrow her car and it was her car that hit him. I think she was scared and panicked, which is why she acted so strangely at work. I think she called FM to come down and help her figure out what to do because there was evidence her car had been in an accident. I think FM really did care about his daughter and didn't want this one incident to destroy her. I think he came down to help her cover it up. They looks for a cheap car to replace hers, bc they were afraid to have it fixed where there would be records of the repairs. I think Maura was very upset because she was a high achiever and would be more upset about this affecting everything she had been working towards. FM didn't want her to drive her car anywhere because he didn't want anyone to see the damage, so they had dinner and he let her take his to he party. She was upset and ended up drinking and wrecking his car. Because FM knew about the Hit and run, MM was very worried he would be upset or angry with her. To me, it's the only thing that makes sense about why Maura was so worried about it, since FM was not the type to be upset about it. I think FM left town and they had made some decisions about what to do with her car (still working on fine tuning my theory, but I think it involved ditching it somewhere out of state and FM picking her up later). She was so panicked, which any overachiever would be (thinking this would ruin her whole life) that she was drinking again while she was driving to ditch the car, but was in the accident where she was last seen. I think the bus driver stopped to help, but she was so afraid at that time of getting a DUI that she lied about needing help. But, she knew he would call for help for her, so she decided to pour out the alcohol and start walking thinking the hit and run damage was covered up now, but still worried about the DUI and the fact that there was a police report on her previous accident in FMs car and she wouldn't get off with a warning this time. I think she started walking and after a short while (where the scent stopped), she was offered a ride or flagged someone down and hopped in thinking that she was far enough away not to be linked to the accident and the driver could take her somewhere where she could call FM to let him know what happened. But, unlike many people, I think it is likely she got in the wrong car. I've seen enough to know that there are plenty of sick people that would have picked her up and raped and murdered a young, attractive girl alone and vulnerable at night. I think FM knew all about the hit and run, but also knows that it has nothing to do with why she disappeared. It explains why he isn't always forth coming, is insistent on that he doesn't know what happened, and also why he is so persistent in the search. He would want to protect his daughter in the event she is found alive and not wanting her to have her reputation tarnished with the involvement in the hit and run, but also knows that her missing genuinely has nothing to do with where she is now or what fate came upon her. MOO, but it does support the facts and the actions and reactions of those involved and the weird behaviors of MM right before she disappeared.

 

[Jane Birch]

Hello to all.
I am a long time lurker on this case.
I was drawn in to this story, as many of you have, by the TV shows about Maura's case.
I have been thinking about this case for some time. Going over stated facts and trying to come to some conclusions. Lately, to try to get some clarity, I have been going back and rereading as many old forums and news articles as I can. After you sift thru the posts, news articles, disregarding the countless arguments, misinformation and poor reporting. It occurs to me that many of the things we assume to be fact may not be so. I have taken to making notes with the hope of getting some answers to the questions I have along the way. However, I am not sure the answers will ever be forthcoming.

I am not attacking the family, but what would it hurt to simply set some simple facts about the case straight? Surely, some things would have to be held back, but there are many things that could be clarified without jeopardizing a criminal case (if there is a criminal case).

I am no Psychologist, but people don't do random things. There is always a motive, even if it is not clear to the observer. I think we can all agree that there is a undercurrent that follows Maura's actions through out the days leading up to her disappearance.
Maybe we could learn a great deal of information about Maura by simply following a minute to minute time line of events.
By studying her actions and reactions during the time line we maybe able to deduce what Maura was thinking at any given point.

When I have more time, I would like to put forth some questions that could be debated with the hope of coming to a resolution to each question.

See, and here's where the (well, A, not necessarily THE) dilemma is. On the one hand, so many people cry out for the family to set the record straight on somethings and say that it would help them understand the case so much better.

On the otherh and, every time the family opens its mouth (or types out a response, or is quoted in a paper or interview or whatever) you get a bunch of people saying they don't trust anything teh family is saying and that it's all "spin."

It strikes me as a case of Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

[Jane Birch]

I totally agree with you, having the same kind of experience you had. Even prescription sleep medication that strictly warns you not to mix with alcohol, probably it won't kill you. I mixed a lot of the two and never had a episode of having to go to the hospital because of that. Just very bad drunken falls that caused some injuries while trying to reach the bed and passing out.
Anyway I don't think an OD of tylenol and alcohol would cause death. And she was a nurse student so she probably had stronger medication that she could have access to. IMO tylenol would work on the morning headache that you have when you're a drinker.
I think if her intention was to commit suicide, exposure to the elements would be a part of the plan. That with drinking and tylenol makes sense to me, just alcohol and tylenol it doesn't. But that's just MOO.

It's not a great and wise plan for getting sleep, this mixing of alcohol and Tylenol PM/Benadryl/other minor painkillers, but I've done it too. And Sharon Rausch has said that Maura had trouble sleeping when she wasn't home, hasn't she?

 

[Jane Birch]

Side note.... Another thought I had is that rehab or something similar could explain the money her father withdrew from the ATMs that has never been explained ... Paying cash would keep it from getting ins involved and keeping it a secret ... As much as Hippa would like us to believe all our medical history is protected trust and believe if someone truly wanted to access it it's not that hard ... Again I don't want to try to slander Maura's reputation I'm just throwing ideas out by all accounts I don't think she was a junkie or a bad person just a possible mistake she could have been wanting to correct

I don't know about 2004, but these days four grand would probably cover about ten minutes in rehab, given the cost of health care.

 

[Jane Birch]

I agree with this quote except I wouldn't characterize large doses of Benadryl (diphenhydramine) as causing psychosis. Benadryl, straight Benadryl not mixed with decongestants or cough suppressants, is a sedative. It's more sedating if you take more than recommended, but it quickly plateaus. 50mg (a full dose) makes you about twice as sedated as 25mg, but going to 200mg doesn’t do all the much more than 50mg, apart from drying the mouth and making the user feel lousy.

I agree that Benadryl makes people drowsy but not enough to kill them.

Well this certainly seems to be my night for confessing stupid things I've done with ingesting substances. I accidentally ODed on diphenhydramine once during a severe bout of anxiety-induced insomnia and I can report back to you all that it is possible to hallucinate to the point of psychosis and temporarily lose touch with reality when you take too much Benadryl. Again, it's not a brilliant move and I totally advice against it.

As to whether or not it could have killed me if I'd taken more....I'd rather not find out if no one minds. I think it is possible, but I don't necsesarily think this was Maura's intent.

 

[Jane Birch]

No organized foot searches have taken place in the mountains, because they would be too dangerous to undertake ... especially for someone that willfully went missing on their own accord.

That is absolutely and patently untrue. Foot searches have been done and reported on in papers.

 

[Fireweed]

Re: rehab, abortion clinic. Abortions can be had much easier is the area Maura already was, and her secret would be less likely to have been revealed if she just stayed in the area she was. The only rehab I have ever seen that was less than $10,000 was a state-run out patient rehab, and it was still close to $10,000.

My own theory is that the upsetting phone call at work never happened. It was a ruse by Maura so that the "death in the family" email a few days later would carry more weight. She timed the meltdown to coincide with when her supervisor would be coming by. I think that there are better clues to what happened to Maura long before that weekend, which I think was the end result of something Maura planned weeks ago. I now believe that her trip up to NH was far less spontaneous that it seems.

 

[scoops]

That is absolutely and patently untrue. Foot searches have been done and reported on in papers.

Um . No.

Foot searches have taken place along rt 112 not in the white mountains themselves, which is what I was referring to. It would be too dangerous to organize a volunteer search effort in the white mountains to locate someone who went missing on their own accord.

 

[Fireweed]

Um . No.

Foot searches have taken place along rt 112 not in the white mountains themselves, which is what I was referring to. It would be too dangerous to organize a volunteer search effort in the white mountains to locate someone who went missing on their own accord.

I had been wondering about the searches. They will say that they "conducted thorough searches" but to me that phrase is ambiguous. I mean, are they thinking that searching just 100 yards off the road is thorough? To me, a thorough search of the area Maura could have gotten that night on foot would be a massive undertaking. She was an athletic runner and an experienced hiker. What if Maura ran 8 miles up the road and then went 3 miles into the mountains from there and died? I highly doubt if an area like that was searched. In fact I am fairly confident that the search was in no way that expansive.

Personally I place very little faith in these searches. How often has a person's body been found not far from their vehicle yet the area was searched "thoroughly"? It seems it comes up quite a lot actually. An object as small as a human body is actually difficult to find. Sheet, they could not even find an entire airplane when Steve Fosset went missing. I recall that Molly Bish's body was found just a couple of miles from where she was last seen, and I am sure that area was searched "thoroughly".

I guess ultimately a search does not prove much of anything to me. All it proves to me is that Maura's body was not easy to spot right away. It certainly does not prove in any way that her body is not somewhere within the area of where she could have theoretically gotten on foot that night.