NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest* #2

[elevatorific]

Which journalist? I know of only one man who filmed it, and his video shows a little over 3 minutes. He's not an actual journalist.

Which journalist was actually in that train car when it started? I really want to know. TIA!

(The guy whose video is most often linked here is not a journalist, that's why I'm so curious - has it been posted here before?)

He's a freelance journalist. MSM journalists are calling him a journalist so we are calling him a journalist.

 

[IceIce9]

Perhaps JN claimed to be armed when he was ranting.

JMO

Maybe because part of his rant was that he would kill people on the train.

Witness says she went back to ‘thank’ Daniel Penny after Jordan Neely chokehold death, is ‘praying’ for him

A straphanger who was on the subway when former Marine Daniel Penny placed Jordan Neely in a fatal chokehold said Thursday she’s “praying” for Penny after it was revealed the 24-year-old would face…

nypost.com

From the article: “He said, ‘I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet, I’ll go to jail’ because he would kill people on the train,” the woman said of Neely. “He said, ‘I would kill a motherf—er. I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet. I’ll go to jail.’”

 

[MyBelle]

Which journalist? I know of only one man who filmed it, and his video shows a little over 3 minutes. He's not an actual journalist.

Which journalist was actually in that train car when it started? I really want to know. TIA!

(The guy whose video is most often linked here is not a journalist, that's why I'm so curious - has it been posted here before?)

I think they mean the guy who recorded part of the incident on his phone and posted it on social media. I don't believe he holds any press credentials, and his video could have been edited. For those reasons, I'm doubtful his video will be allowed at trial.

 

[10ofRods]

BBM. I'm confident all the witnesses know about what preceded the chokehold.

JMO

Can you say what makes you confident? It sounds to me (and we can see it in the video posted here) that there were 4 men (including the cameraman) and 2 women who were still on the car after they reached the platform.

The man filming got off the car and tried to film through the window while the car was being cleared.

Then, there seem to be three different types of witnesses who were on the car at the beginning. One group are the strap hangers who had to squeeze Neely into their midst; There's the one 66 year old woman (also a strap hanger according to NYP) who says she was frightened (but doesn't mention that she communicated this fear to Penny).

Johnny Grima came from another car during the event and he's the one who thought Neely was in distress, so he tried to pour water on him in hope of reviving him, was told not to by Penny. Grima says he feels terrible that he then walked away. Doesn't sound like he was scared of Neely.

A man named Kings has spoken out, but did not arrive on scene at the beginning.

And the man with the video, who was on the car at the beginning (possibly seated, IIRC). So there are late arrival witnesses, strap hanger witnesses and other witnesses on the car. The car, according to all accounts, was crowded when the choke hold began. People got off pretty quickly at the next stop, naturally.

"Several" witnesses (unnamed, this is according to Prosecutors) heard Neely say he was hungry and thirsty, that he didn't care if he died, that he would take a bullet or go to jail. Are these the witnesses to whom you're referring? They're mentioned in the article below, I think.

https://www.npr.org/2023/05/12/1175776831/daniel-penny-criminal-charges-jordan-neely-death-chokehold

The article also mentions the GF#me group who is raising funds for Penny's defense; it is the same group who raised funds for Rittenhouse, according to NPR.

IMO. I don't think we've heard directly from very many witnesses, is my point.

 

[JennieM]

Which journalist? I know of only one man who filmed it, and his video shows a little over 3 minutes. He's not an actual journalist.

Which journalist was actually in that train car when it started? I really want to know. TIA!

(The guy whose video is most often linked here is not a journalist, that's why I'm so curious - has it been posted here before?)

He is a journalist 10ofRods. "The video, shot by freelance journalist Juan Alberto Vázquez, ..."

The Man Who Killed Jordan Neely Has Been Indicted

Clearing the way for Daniel Penny’s criminal trial.

www.thecut.com

 

[elevatorific]

I think they mean the guy who recorded part of the incident on his phone and posted it on social media. I don't believe he holds any press credentials, and his video could have been edited. For those reasons, I'm doubtful his video will be allowed at trial.

Are the only videos allowed at trial ones filmed by people with press credentials? Is that a NY thing?

 

[JennieM]

Doesn't the subway carriage also have CCTV? Apologies if this was discussed earlier.

 

[kittythehare]

Gosh no.
Remember George Floyd?
Edit, that is in response to your question about witness videos @elevatorific

 

[IceIce9]

It is easy to do Monday morning quarterbacking here and try to guess whether or not the passengers felt threatened by JN’s behavior.

I don’t think any of us will know the entire story until we hear what the actual passengers have to say.

But, I can say with certainty that I would not have been nonchalant about his threatening behavior had my mother, grandmother, or child been on the subway car at the time. That is my opinion, maybe other members would have been fine with it.

JMO

 

[kittythehare]

I don't think so, I heard talk of it but nothing confirmed afaik.
@JennieM

 

[Lilibet]

It is easy to do Monday morning quarterbacking here and try to guess whether or not the passengers felt threatened by JN’s behavior.

I don’t think any of us will know the entire story until we hear what the actual passengers have to say.

But, I can say with certainty that I would not have been nonchalant about his threatening behavior had my mother, grandmother, or child been on the subway car at the time. That is my opinion, maybe other members would have been fine with it.

JMO

I don’t know why you would think maybe any of us would have been “nonchalant” or “have been fine with” Neely’s behavior. I’m sure everyone on that was feeling anywhere from concerned to terrified.

But we still have no information that provides “self-defense” or “defense of others” justification for Penny putting and keeping Mr Neely in a potentially lethal chokehold. Many seem to think that fact has been established. But it hasn’t. And that is the crux of the matter.

JMO

 

[Rolypolyoly]

It is easy to do Monday morning quarterbacking here and try to guess whether or not the passengers felt threatened by JN’s behavior.

I don’t think any of us will know the entire story until we hear what the actual passengers have to say.

But, I can say with certainty that I would not have been nonchalant about his threatening behavior had my mother, grandmother, or child been on the subway car at the time. That is my opinion, maybe other members would have been fine with it.

JMO

I don't think that's what this discussion should be about though. I think most of us would have felt at the very least uncomfortable, and we can all surely understand how people on that train could have felt threatened, for me that isn't in dispute at all.

What this discussion should be about is whether Daniel Penny's actions were justified, was he justified in using a dangerous chokehold, especially when he had expert knowledge of the dangers associated with it? Was he justified in going straight in with lethal force when he had other methods at his disposal? He is a trained marine, he had the ability to restrain Neely safely, but he didn't use safe measures and Neely is dead. That's what this discussion should be about. Not whether he was justified in intervening, but whether his use of deadly force was justified.
I vote no. JMO.

 

[Lilibet]

Gosh no.
Remember George Floyd?
Edit, that is in response to your question about witness videos @elevatorific

Yes, Donetta Frazier, the courageous teenaged girl who recorded Chauvin killing Mr Floyd. Her video was definitely admitted as evidence…thankfully.

 

[MyBelle]

Can you say what makes you confident? It sounds to me (and we can see it in the video posted here) that there were 4 men (including the cameraman) and 2 women who were still on the car after they reached the platform.

The man filming got off the car and tried to film through the window while the car was being cleared.

Then, there seem to be three different types of witnesses who were on the car at the beginning. One group are the strap hangers who had to squeeze Neely into their midst; There's the one 66 year old woman (also a strap hanger according to NYP) who says she was frightened (but doesn't mention that she communicated this fear to Penny).

Johnny Grima came from another car during the event and he's the one who thought Neely was in distress, so he tried to pour water on him in hope of reviving him, was told not to by Penny. Grima says he feels terrible that he then walked away. Doesn't sound like he was scared of Neely.

A man named Kings has spoken out, but did not arrive on scene at the beginning.

And the man with the video, who was on the car at the beginning (possibly seated, IIRC). So there are late arrival witnesses, strap hanger witnesses and other witnesses on the car. The car, according to all accounts, was crowded when the choke hold began. People got off pretty quickly at the next stop, naturally.

"Several" witnesses (unnamed, this is according to Prosecutors) heard Neely say he was hungry and thirsty, that he didn't care if he died, that he would take a bullet or go to jail. Are these the witnesses to whom you're referring? They're mentioned in the article below, I think.

https://www.npr.org/2023/05/12/1175776831/daniel-penny-criminal-charges-jordan-neely-death-chokehold

The article also mentions the GF#me group who is raising funds for Penny's defense; it is the same group who raised funds for Rittenhouse, according to NPR.

IMO. I don't think we've heard directly from very many witnesses, is my point.

BBM. I agree with you. The witnesses who were present PRIOR to the chokehold know what transpired and I'm confident they spoke to police.

Why would anyone have to verbally express their fear to Penny? The elderly woman who called him a hero in the press also said she would testify on his behalf. I'm assuming she knows what transpired from the beginning.

I'm not familiar with the fundraising site. I didn't follow the Rittenhouse case.

JMO

 

[10ofRods]

Need 12 to convict. 1 of 12 thinks the ex-Marine‘s best move wasn’t a phone call, and Penny walks. P.s. cellular calls don’t go through in that area of the tunnels. They do in some parts of the NYC subway system, but they don’t in the metal cars at Broadway-Lafayette or in Bleecker or between. Which, as you can imagine, adds to the fear people feel. Waiting for the response that he should’ve done a web-enabled call with Zoom, while that elderly lady prayed.

And yet, others have said that they did dial 911 from the car, and we can see that LE arrived very quickly after the train got to the next stop. The Conductor was involved as well - surely they have a means of communicating with the outside world? Because, if not, then NYC has its work cut out for it, if they want people to feel safe on subways.

The below article mentions a 911 call, but doesn't say who called or from where. It takes the view that the choke hold was 15 minutes.

NYC subway rider who put Jordan Neely in fatal chokehold to be charged with manslaughter

Neely, a subway busker who performed dance routines in costume as Michael Jackson, was unconscious when officers arrived. He was pronounced dead at the hospital.

www.nbcnews.com

And this article says there was a "flood" of 911 calls, with 5 in just 4 minutes. Mayor says LE arrived within 6 minutes of the original call.

911 flooded with calls, including reports of a gun, while Jordan Neely was fatally choked on train: cops

A total of five emergency calls were made over a four-minute span just before 2:30 p.m. Monday as a Marine — now identified as 24-year-old Daniel Penny — held Neely in a chokehold on the floor of t…

nypost.com

I wouldn't call five 911 calls a "flood," but then again, I don't have to make a living as a stringer for the NY Post. One of the witnesses claims a knife or gun was involved, although LE reports no weapons were found either on Neely or Penny.

There's an interview with the video-taking guy, but not sure the source is approved. It says the conductor shouted "Police! Police!" over a speaker. Did that result in a 911 call by someone out on the platform (they were stationary at the platform when that happened). He calls what Neely was doing "lamenting," not "threatening." I don't see why they wouldn't use this man and his video in court, but I'm no expert in criminal negligence in NY, that's for sure.

I am sure there are more witnesses, but without knowing who they are or what they saw, I'm not sure that they will be unanimous. Eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable (one of those five 911 calls was wrong, IOW). I think we have to wait until trial or plea bargain to know more.

PS. I think Lilibet's times and account of this, above, is more thorough and erases some doubt about who called 911 (one person was the engineer of the train).

IMO.

 

[Lilibet]

That's what this discussion should be about. Not whether he was justified in intervening, but whether his use of deadly force was justified.
I vote no. JMO.

I vote “no” too.

 

[10ofRods]

BBM. Many people have no concept of the volume of traffic in Manhattan. The amount of time that elapsed before EMS was able to get there doesn't surprise me.

JMO

To me, as an above-ground commuter and resident of SoCal, the 6 minutes to arrival on the platform (per the mayor of NY, linked in one of my recent posts) seems really good. I assume EMS came as soon as given the all clear signal (which surely would have been soon). I would also think that LEO's in NYC would know CPR but maybe I'm just an optimist. I do not believe it would have been easy to revive Mr. Neely if his windpipe was actually crushed, though. He likely would have needed a tracheotomy.

IMO.

 

[Lilibet]

Why would anyone have to verbally express their fear to Penny?

In order for Penny to claim that he was defending someone else, he would have to know that there had been a direct threat by Mr Neely. Expressing fear is not enough to help Penny. Penny thinking people were afraid is definitely not enough to justify his actions.

I'm not familiar with the fundraising site. I didn't follow the Rittenhouse case.

I won’t name it but it is a self-proclaimed “Christian” alternative to the main fundraising site. The main site does not allow fundraising for anyone charged with a serious crime. This site does and is a favorite of conservatives. Rittenhouse can be googled. I don’t want to derail the thread.

 

[Lilibet]

To me, as an above-ground commuter and resident of SoCal, the 6 minutes to arrival on the platform (per the mayor of NY, linked in one of my recent posts) seems really good. I assume EMS came as soon as given the all clear signal (which surely would have been soon). I would also think that LEO's in NYC would know CPR but maybe I'm just an optimist. I do not believe it would have been easy to revive Mr. Neely if his windpipe was actually crushed, though. He likely would have needed a tracheotomy.

IMO.

LE did begin CPR before EMTs arrived, but I’ll never find the link again!

 

[MyBelle]

To me, as an above-ground commuter and resident of SoCal, the 6 minutes to arrival on the platform (per the mayor of NY, linked in one of my recent posts) seems really good. I assume EMS came as soon as given the all clear signal (which surely would have been soon). I would also think that LEO's in NYC would know CPR but maybe I'm just an optimist. I do not believe it would have been easy to revive Mr. Neely if his windpipe was actually crushed, though. He likely would have needed a tracheotomy.

IMO.

I think police were already there, awaiting the train's arrival to the platform. EMT's likely arrived by vehicle and that's why it took them longer. I'm used to Chicago traffic, which is horrible but I no longer take the CTA because the violence and crime has escalated. iirc, Penny tried to assist with the CPR. The Mayor has dedicated a lot of money trying to make the subway system safer. At least he's trying:
JMO

Exclusive: NYC Mayor Eric Adams' subway safety program, 1 year later

Eyewitness News Reporter N.J. Burkett rode the subway exclusively with the mayor to see firsthand what kind of changes - if any - have resulted.

abc7ny.com