NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest* #2

[elevatorific]

I think police were already there, awaiting the train's arrival to the platform. EMT's likely arrived by vehicle and that's why it took them longer. I'm used to Chicago traffic, which is horrible but I no longer take the CTA because the violence and crime has escalated. iirc, Penny tried to assist with the CPR. The Mayor has dedicated a lot of money trying to make the subway system safer. At least he's trying:
JMO

Exclusive: NYC Mayor Eric Adams' subway safety program, 1 year later

Eyewitness News Reporter N.J. Burkett rode the subway exclusively with the mayor to see firsthand what kind of changes - if any - have resulted.

abc7ny.com

Police were not already there.
The entirety of the 4 minute video we've seen is while the train is stopped at the platform with its doors open. No one is waiting for its arrival.

 

[IceIce9]

To me, as an above-ground commuter and resident of SoCal, the 6 minutes to arrival on the platform (per the mayor of NY, linked in one of my recent posts) seems really good. I assume EMS came as soon as given the all clear signal (which surely would have been soon). I would also think that LEO's in NYC would know CPR but maybe I'm just an optimist. I do not believe it would have been easy to revive Mr. Neely if his windpipe was actually crushed, though. He likely would have needed a tracheotomy.

IMO.

“Compressions only” or “hands only” CPR would have been possible on JN.

Most of the LEOs I know would know how to perform compressions only CPR.

 

[elevatorific]

FWIW for those keeping track: you could probably include in the the minute-by-minute timeline that the freelance journalist's 4 minute video starts at 2:26pm and ends at 2:30pm per the clock visible on the train.

 

[kittythehare]

“Compressions only” or “hands only” CPR would have been possible on JN.

Most of the LEOs I know would know how to perform compressions only CPR.

They would also know to clear his airway first.

 

[kittythehare]

FWIW for those keeping track: you could probably include in the the minute-by-minute timeline that the freelance journalist's 4 minute video starts at 2:26pm and ends at 2:30pm per the clock visible on the train.

SWEET.
I could not find that info.
Thank you.

The New York Police Department received a call about a fight on the train at 2:27 p.m., and arrived before 2:30 p.m., administering first aid to an unconscious Neely.[2][35][36] The New York City Fire Department received its call for help at 2:39 p.m., arriving at 2:46 p.m.. At least five 9-1-1 calls were made, with some initial reports describing a homeless man that some found to be threatening in his mannerisms and volume.[37]

Killing of Jordan Neely - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[MyBelle]

Police were not already there.
The entirety of the 4 minute video we've seen is while the train is stopped at the platform with its doors open. No one is waiting for its arrival.

I meant LE were already at the station, which is quite large.

Broadway Lafayette Subway Station, In Soho, Manhattan, New York City Stock Photo - Image of building, station: 216196644

Photo about Broadway Lafayette Subway Station, in Soho, Manhattan, New York City. Image of building, station, united - 216196644

www.dreamstime.com

 

[JennieM]

These are the timings given in Wiki:

2:27 p.m. The New York Police Department received a call about a fight on the train.

2:29 p.m. A passerby on the train warned that Neely had defecated on himself, a sign that he may be dying, saying, "You don't want to catch a murder charge. You got a hell of a chokehold, man."[2][14]

2:30 p.m. The New York Police Department arrived, administering first aid to an unconscious Neely.[2][35][36]

Around 2:30 p.m. Jordan Neely, a homeless 30-year-old black man, was killed by Daniel Penny, a white 24-year-old ex-marine, who placed him in a chokehold while they were riding the F train in Manhattan on the New York City Subway.[2][3][4]

2:39 p.m. The New York City Fire Department received its call for help.

2:46 p.m. The New York City Fire Department arrived at the scene.

Killing of Jordan Neely - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[JennieM]

SWEET.
I could not find that info.
Thank you.

The New York Police Department received a call about a fight on the train at 2:27 p.m., and arrived before 2:30 p.m., administering first aid to an unconscious Neely.[2][35][36] The New York City Fire Department received its call for help at 2:39 p.m., arriving at 2:46 p.m.. At least five 9-1-1 calls were made, with some initial reports describing a homeless man that some found to be threatening in his mannerisms and volume.[37]

Killing of Jordan Neely - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Sorry just saw your post on Wiki too!

 

[10ofRods]

They would also know to clear his airway first.

My fear is that this was beyond mere clearing of the airway. Choke holds cause collapse and crushing of the fibers that make the airway possible in the first place (that's why they are banned in so many situations today).

I do think Neely would have needed a tracheotomy, although it's possible he was also brain dead (loss of autonomic functioning is a very poor sign).

IMO.

 

[JennieM]

It's interesting that the calls reported to the New York Police Department and New York City Fire Department are about the fight and an unconscious Neely. The calls are not about a threatening Neely.

 

[caradana]

Doesn't the subway carriage also have CCTV? Apologies if this was discussed earlier.

The subway carriage has light graffiti and minimally functional doors. If there’s CCTV on any cars on that line, I have never seen it. I’ll look hard tomorrow though and report if it is there and has surprised me! - Dana, NYC since ‘07, probably 5,000+ NYC subway rides logged including many on the line this happened on.

 

[MyBelle]

My fear is that this was beyond mere clearing of the airway. Choke holds cause collapse and crushing of the fibers that make the airway possible in the first place (that's why they are banned in so many situations today).

I do think Neely would have needed a tracheotomy, although it's possible he was also brain dead (loss of autonomic functioning is a very poor sign).

IMO.

I'm troubled by the timeline that's been posted here. If LE arrived at 2:30 and found JN unconscious, why did they wait 9 minutes to call EMT's?

JMO

 

[kittythehare]

My fear is that this was beyond mere clearing of the airway. Choke holds cause collapse and crushing of the fibers that make the airway possible in the first place (that's why they are banned in so many situations today).

I do think Neely would have needed a tracheotomy, although it's possible he was also brain dead (loss of autonomic functioning is a very poor sign).

IMO.

I agree.
I'm trying to find a context for this bit-
A witness stated that at some point during the chokehold, Penny relaxed his grip on Neely, and Neely coughed up a wad of blood and mucus.[31]

Link gives this detail

At some point, they said, Penny relaxed his grip on Neely, and Neely coughed up a bright red wad of blood and mucus. (indicates fresh blood)

I want to know what time exactly this happened and whether Penny resumed choking him afterwards.

I think this is a crux. (wiki link)

We need to determine Penny's culpability.
Why did his chokehold not render Jordan immobilised almost immediately.
That is not the first question. Obviously the first question is why Penny engaged a choke hold at all.
A choke hold is prohibited by statute
Here's the statute.

The New York City Council - File #: Int 0536-2018

Title: A Local Law to amend the administrative code of the City of New York, in relation to chokeholds and other such restraints

legistar.council.nyc.gov

 

[10ofRods]

FWIW for those keeping track: you could probably include in the the minute-by-minute timeline that the freelance journalist's 4 minute video starts at 2:26pm and ends at 2:30pm per the clock visible on the train.

I am keeping track and thank you all very much.

It's interesting that the calls reported to the New York Police Department and New York City Fire Department are about the fight and an unconscious Nelly. The calls are not about a threatening Nelly.

That is interesting. First thing I'd do if I felt threatened (and this is something I've memorized and been trained to do) is dial 911. Naturally, I also have non-emergency LE lines in my phone. Someone was able to make a 911 call (and there appear to be at least 5 of them) so IMO it's not the case that everyone (including the train driver) had no ability to call in 911. The loud speakers on the train were working, the conductor used them. Of course, I might have assumed that the "proper people" (conductor, engineer) had already called in.

IMO.

 

[10ofRods]

I agree.
I'm trying to find a context for this bit-
A witness stated that at some point during the chokehold, Penny relaxed his grip on Neely, and Neely coughed up a wad of blood and mucus.[31]

Link gives this detail

At some point, they said, Penny relaxed his grip on Neely, and Neely coughed up a bright red wad of blood and mucus. (indicates fresh blood)

I want to know what time exactly this happened and whether Penny resumed choking him afterwards.

I think this is a crux. (wiki link)

We need to determine Penny's culpability.
Why did his chokehold not render Jordan immobilised almost immediately.
That is not the first question. Obviously the first question is why Penny engaged a choke hold at all.
A choke hold is prohibited by statute
Here's the statute.

The New York City Council - File #: Int 0536-2018

Title: A Local Law to amend the administrative code of the City of New York, in relation to chokeholds and other such restraints

legistar.council.nyc.gov

I think those facts indicate significant damage to the trachea, with the autonomic response (that was repressed by the chokehold) of coughing and gagging (the egress of the mucus and blood was impossible during the hold). Neely was no longer acting out of any kind of upper brain function, his autonomic nervous system took over, he then lost consciousness, then he died. By which I mean his brain had no oxygen for at least 3 minutes, IMO.

It's horrifying that we all can witness this via the videos. But, we do need to know what really happens in the world.

IMO.

 

[caradana]

I think police were already there, awaiting the train's arrival to the platform. EMT's likely arrived by vehicle and that's why it took them longer. I'm used to Chicago traffic, which is horrible but I no longer take the CTA because the violence and crime has escalated. iirc, Penny tried to assist with the CPR. The Mayor has dedicated a lot of money trying to make the subway system safer. At least he's trying:
JMO

Exclusive: NYC Mayor Eric Adams' subway safety program, 1 year later

Eyewitness News Reporter N.J. Burkett rode the subway exclusively with the mayor to see firsthand what kind of changes - if any - have resulted.

abc7ny.com

Agree with this. I actually think that the MTA police were already in the Broadway-Lafayette station when the call went out - I cannot remember the last time I’ve been in that station and NOT seen police stationed there, they have a specific area - but it’s upstairs, and it’s a complicated station, multiple tunnels and an underground pass-thru attaching it to Bleecker. I circled it on the map here, you can see the two sister stations with the pass-thru mapped. It could easily take 6-10 mins to find the right train and car even starting within the station. Not sure if MTA police reported before regular NYPD. The ambulance had to drive there and get down a lot of steps with equipment.

 

[Lilibet]

Why did his chokehold not render Jordan immobilised almost immediately.

From the links you’ve posted and other reading, the “blood choke” (carotid) is almost immediate (seconds), but the air choke takes longer to immobilize. I posted a link from Wikipedia lasr night about this.

 

[Recidivist]

Then NY needs to have subway police on the trains like we have in the SF Bay Area. Not citizens taking the law into their own hands.

Bay Area business offers self-defense classes after recent public transit attacks

We've seen violent crimes happen on both on BART and Muni. Now, a local business in San Francisco is offering a self-defense workshop specifically for those who take public transit.

abc7news.com

We've seen violent crimes happen on both on BART and Muni. Now a local business in San Francisco is offering a self-defense workshop specifically for those who take public transit.

Images of people being robbed or attacked while taking public transit like the 79-year-old woman in San Francisco, who was brutally kicked in the stomach last Dec. have increased the desire for some to learn how to defend themselves.

 

[kittythehare]

From the links you’ve posted and other reading, the “blood choke” (carotid) is almost immediate (seconds), but the air choke takes longer to immobilize. I posted a link from Wikipedia lasr night about this.

https://www.trngcmd.marines.mil/Portals/207/Docs/FMTBE/Student%20Materials/MCECST/B_Tan_Belt_Execute_Chokes_%20SO.pdf?ver=pJH__SmOfUgRAWuTKRUJDQ%3D%3D

 

[Recidivist]

Bay Area business offers self-defense classes after recent public transit attacks

We've seen violent crimes happen on both on BART and Muni. Now, a local business in San Francisco is offering a self-defense workshop specifically for those who take public transit.

abc7news.com

Images of people being robbed or attacked while taking public transit like the 79-year-old woman in San Francisco, who was brutally kicked in the stomach last Dec. have increased the desire for some to learn how to defend themselves.

haha. It appears I am confused. Imagine that!