GUILTY NY - Phoenix & Luna Rodriguez, 1, twins, die in hot car, Bronx, 26 July 2019 *No jail*

[gitana1]

Do you seriously think that this man is competent to take care of children? Drop off another baby at daycare?

These are not idle questions. If this man doesn't go to prison, because he just "forgot" twin babies in a car...is he considered competent to continue to be responsible for his other children?

Do you seriously think a father who made such a horrific, fatal mistake would ever make one like that again?

I'm not seeing any logic in some of these posts. A person who is exhausted can make a dreadful mistake like this. But it's rare.

Can they make other mistakes at work like forgetting to call a client? Yes. It happens all the time in the workforce. Happily it usually doesn't have such fatal outcomes. But it can.

Someone whose child died due to an accident is going to probably be the safest when it comes to other children.

 

[Safeguard]

One thing I notice is that it's overwhelmingly fathers when a parent is to blame.

This made me think. It's true, isn't it? That is an interesting observation.
We carried these children in our very bodies, could there be an unseen connection that fathers don't experience? Food for thought G.

 

[gitana1]

First off, IMO given the current information I don't believe this man intentionally left his twins in a hot car. That said, I have a hard time with the notion of "he/she has suffered enough" declarations. As already noted, the law often treats a forgetful parent differently from a babysitter or daycare worker when a child dies from hyperthermia while on their watch. I'm not sure why that is. A caregiver is a caregiver, paid or not.

Also, it's expected that laws differ from state to state just as laws on other deaths differ - i.e. assisted suicide, vehicular deaths - so it's not surprising that we see differing charges depending on location.

Still, if a driver experienced the same circumstances; stress, lack of sleep due to caring for young children, a change in routine, etc. and dozed off for an instant while driving and ran into a group of children at a bus stop, killing one or more, would we be having the same discussion? Why wouldn't we think they "suffered enough?"

If science ultimately supports the theory of "forgotten baby syndrome" aka the "swiss cheese model" then lawmakers must rethink how the caregivers - parents or otherwise - are treated.

My own personal opinion is that I am responsible for my child and if I have a lapse in that responsibility, intentional or not, then I must be prepared to face the legal consequences. MOO.

Because a caregiver paid to care for a child that is not their own has a higher expectation of vigilance. I know that's super true when it comes to kids who aren't mine. There's an extra feeling of caution. I drive differently.

But the bottom line is they're supposed to be professionals who are paid to care for unrelated children and who are supposed to be diligent in counting heads and keeping track of their charges. It's their actual profession. They undergo courses and safety training that parents don't have to which makes them legally. more liable because they know more and thus have a greater duty of care.

Also, unlike parents they're not universally exhausted from continual sleepless nights.

 

[gitana1]

This made me think. It's true, isn't it? That is an interesting observation.
We carried these children in our very bodies, could there be an unseen connection that fathers don't experience? Food for thought G.

I didn't want to say that. I did think it.

But also, child care is still moms more than dads so these may be dads not used to getting the kids to daycare.

 

[wary]

The idea is that when the baby is in the carseat, the stuffed animal goes in the front seat to serve as a reminder.

But personally I think that design is too easily 'sloppified', meaning the stuffed animal might be left in the front seat all the time instead of being put in the carseat when there's no baby in the car, and if that happens it will quickly become normal enough to not serve as a mental reminder.

@blue22 I also agree that we can have difficulty remembering things we want to remember when our routine is disturbed. Most of the time a routine works well, which is why we have them.

What I was getting at is not the remembering to do something initially -- our sense of routine (or our to-list) should remind us, but it obviously fails sometimes. What I was referring to is the remembering afterwards -- like throughout the day did this dad think/feel like he had dropped off the kids? Probably so -- but it was actually his memories of all the other recent dropoffs.

All these comments about memories are MOO. But I still think someone should invent this gadget.

That’s why I’m in love with the idea of ‘put your left shoe on the back seat.” It won’t be ‘sloppified’—I love that word. It can’t be ignored—you aren’t going to limp on in to your workplace. It sends you to the back seat where the baby is. There are no batteries or parts to wear out or fail. It’s such a weird thing to do that there’s no chance that you’ll forget why you did it.

 

[gitana1]

I agree. Personally... I don't think anguish should be a legally mitigating factor.

Well it is. How horrible a person feels, their anguish about what they did is always examined by cops and prosecutors and juries and heavily influences outcomes when it comes to charges and sentencing.

Mitigating Factors
The defense may put on evidence of mitigating factors that would support leniency in sentencing. Criminal statutes devote far less attention to factors that might mitigate a defendant’s punishment, but courts have held that evidence relating to a defendant’s character may be introduced provided that it is relevant to the sentencing process. See Lockett v. Ohio, 438 U.S. 586 (1978). Common mitigating factors include:

• Lack of a prior criminal record
• Minor role in the offense;
• Culpability of the victim;
• Past circumstances, such as abuse that resulted in criminal activity;
• Circumstances at the time of the offense, such as provocation, stress, or emotional problems that might not excuse the crime but might offer an explanation;
• Mental or physical illness; and
• Genuine remorse.

Aggravating and Mitigating Factors in Criminal Sentencing | Justia

Emphasis by me.

 

[mickey2942]

That’s why I’m in love with the idea of ‘put your left shoe on the back seat.” It won’t be ‘sloppified’—I love that word. It can’t be ignored—you aren’t going to limp on in to your workplace. It sends you to the back seat where the baby is. There are no batteries or parts to wear out or fail. It’s such a weird thing to do that there’s no chance that you’ll forget why you did it.

But, would a person who forgot their children in a car, remember to put their shoe in the backseat?

 

[wary]

But, would a person who forgot their children in a car, remember to put their shoe in the backseat?

You do it when you put the children in. That’s a moment when you’re focused on them. If you can’t remember them then, maybe you should just have a pet rock instead. (And I didn’t mean ‘you,’ of course!)

 

[Safeguard]

leniency

This. This is what SO bothers me, about these Hot Car cases we disect here.

So many want none for others but I bet would want some if they had to walk a mile...

So many perfect people here, apparently.

 

[gitana1]

But, would a person who forgot their children in a car, remember to put their shoe in the backseat?

Maybe. Except they would be doing it when they put their kid in the car, not after they've been driving for a while. So it would have to become habit and if it is then it would be a habit that occurs when they're looking at their child and thus can;t forget them at that moment.

In general, I think any discussion via a safety awareness program targeting parents of newborns will reduce such deaths. Whether it's a shoe, "Look back", a phone, a mirror, an alarm. But the awareness and a discussion before they leave the hospital should be huge.

The rise in hot car deaths is directly in line with the switch to rear facing car seats. Rear facing car seats didn't suddenly create a bunch of criminally negligent parents. Their kids likely would've survived if the car seat was right in the front like when I was kid.

 

[wary]

Maybe. Except they would be doing it when they put their kid in the car, not after they've been driving for a while. So it would have to become habit and if it is then it would be a habit that occurs when they're looking at their child and thus can;t forget them at that moment.

In general, I think any discussion via a safety awareness program targeting parents of newborns will reduce such deaths. Whether it's a shoe, "Look back", a phone, a mirror, an alarm. But the awareness and a discussion before they leave the hospital should be huge.

The rise in hot car deaths is directly in line with the switch to rear facing car seats. Rear facing car seats didn't suddenly create a bunch of criminally negligent parents. Their kids likely would've survived if the car seat was right in the front like when I was kid.

Absolutely right about the car seats.

Hmmm, there’s a reason that the proverb says: “out of sight, out of mind.”

 

[gitana1]

This. This is what SO bothers me, about these Hot Car cases we disect here.

So many want none for others but I bet would want some if they had to walk a mile...

So many perfect people here, apparently.

Yeah I do think that parents who show genuine anguish and remorse are different from those that don't. Because it is an indication that what happened wasn't a result of apathy or willful neglect, or narcissism or selfishness. I think there's a good reason for finding that some people have suffered enough. Others clearly need that beaten into their brains.

 

[beatrixpotter]

When smelling something awful in your car, would you not investigate the source to throw it away? If I thought there was a dirty diaper or something else stinking the place, I would find it to throw it away. Not go on my way.

Not if I was in a hurry to get home or somewhere else I wouldn't. Discovering the source of a smell would not be my first priority unless I had a lot of free time which I don't often have once I've rushed out to my car. The last time I smelled something in my car I was in a mad rush and running late and I complained profusely and asked my husband what in the world he thought it was. But getting to where we needed to go was the higher priority than a smell.

My example above was also a grocery store!! That's not a smell when you first hop in your car. That was a non stop stench for months. That's insane. And yet people who were managing and working with a business selling food to eat totally ignored it. Did no one inspect that grocery store for cleanliness? This guy only made it a couple of minutes down the road before pulling over...not leaving something smelling for forever essentially.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

Maybe. Except they would be doing it when they put their kid in the car, not after they've been driving for a while. So it would have to become habit and if it is then it would be a habit that occurs when they're looking at their child and thus can;t forget them at that moment.

In general, I think any discussion via a safety awareness program targeting parents of newborns will reduce such deaths. Whether it's a shoe, "Look back", a phone, a mirror, an alarm. But the awareness and a discussion before they leave the hospital should be huge.

The rise in hot car deaths is directly in line with the switch to rear facing car seats. Rear facing car seats didn't suddenly create a bunch of criminally negligent parents. Their kids likely would've survived if the car seat was right in the front like when I was kid.

I agree with this.

And also, your post made me think of something.

In theory, discounting any intentional harm situations, these episodes of forgetting the baby in the rear-facing, back-seat carseats, must be happening randomly throughout the year. I mean, unless the heat is part of what triggers the forgetting, it must sometimes happen in cool or cold weather too. Only then, the child survives because the car doesn't get so hot.

Parents must just never mention those incidents -- although I would think they would startle parents into greater diligence by seeing that they are vulnerable and they just caught a lucky break that it wasn't hot.

Or do people think this only happens in warm or hot weather?

 

[gitana1]

Absolutely right about the car seats.

Hmmm, there’s a reason that the proverb says: “out of sight, out of mind.”

It's a horror. One I've sat and purposefully thought about while in a hot car after I park. I can understand why for some the agonizing, preventable torment those poor babies suffer as they slowly bake to death, is unforgivable.

I don't have small babies and don't have to worry about that. But now I'm focused on my pets. And I have these crazy horrors and paranoias, similar to that sudden feeling someone described when it gets suddenly too quiet, you don;t hear your kid and you have that jolt of panic that something might be wrong.

One of my biggest paranoias is that my cat will be in the dryer when it turns on.

I have these terrifying jolts if I think the dryer sounds different. And I have a bunch of crazy lady signs everywhere warning my family and the cleaning ladies (English and Spanish) to check the dryer for cats.

It's sort of irrational but I'm so scared of something happening and I do believe horrific accidents can happen to even the most diligent of parents. Hot cars, drowning in pools, backing over a kid, etc.

There but for the Grace of God...

 

[Safeguard]

I didn't want to say that. I did think it.

But also, child care is still moms more than dads so these may be dads not used to getting the kids to daycare.

And that is designed by nature. (pardon me for stating the truth)

 

[Inthedetails]

Same, or I would be under my bed in the fetal position. But he was spotted outside of his house today. I thought maybe he was going to see his attorney, but he was dressed in gym clothes.

It looked like he was going for a run, but when seeing the reporters, he retreated to his home. I was sad to see that because getting exercise is a stress-reliever and helps with mental health. I'm sure there are people who would say he doesn't deserve to go for a jog, but imo, that's exactly what he does deserve to do. I'm sure tensions are high in that home and one way to manage stress is to be outdoors and to get exercise. Even prisoners with the harshest sentences for the worse crimes are allowed that.

I understand the interest in the story (I'm interested, after all), but to hound him and prevent him from daily living tasks I think is goes out of bounds.

jmopinion

 

[gitana1]

I agree with this.

And also, your post made me think of something.

In theory, discounting any intentional harm situations, these episodes of forgetting the baby in the rear-facing, back-seat carseats, must be happening randomly throughout the year. I mean, unless the heat is part of what triggers the forgetting, it must sometimes happen in cool or cold weather too. Only then, the child survives because the car doesn't get so hot.

Parents must just never mention those incidents -- although I would think they would startle parents into greater diligence by seeing that they are vulnerable and they just caught a lucky break that it wasn't hot.

Or do people think this only happens in warm or hot weather?

Apparently it happens more in the summer because child care/school routines are suddenly different. So it's more common in July than August.

 

[blue22]

Well it is. How horrible a person feels, their anguish about what they did is always examined by cops and prosecutors and juries and heavily influences outcomes when it comes to charges and sentencing.

Mitigating Factors
The defense may put on evidence of mitigating factors that would support leniency in sentencing. Criminal statutes devote far less attention to factors that might mitigate a defendant’s punishment, but courts have held that evidence relating to a defendant’s character may be introduced provided that it is relevant to the sentencing process. See Lockett v. Ohio, 438 U.S. 586 (1978). Common mitigating factors include:

• Lack of a prior criminal record
• Minor role in the offense;
• Culpability of the victim;
• Past circumstances, such as abuse that resulted in criminal activity;
• Circumstances at the time of the offense, such as provocation, stress, or emotional problems that might not excuse the crime but might offer an explanation;
• Mental or physical illness; and
• Genuine remorse.

Aggravating and Mitigating Factors in Criminal Sentencing | Justia

Emphasis by me.

Right.

Why I said "personally I don't think." It's an opinion.

 

[gitana1]

It looked like he was going for a run, but when seeing the reporters, he retreated to his home. I was sad to see that because getting exercise is a stress-reliever and helps with mental health. I'm sure there are people who would say he doesn't deserve to go for a jog, but imo, that's exactly what he does deserve to do. I'm sure tensions are high in that home and one way to manage stress is to be outdoors and to get exercise. Even prisoners with the harshest sentences for the worse crimes are allowed that.

I understand the interest in the story (I'm interested, after all), but to hound him and prevent him from daily living tasks I think is goes out of bounds.

jmopinion

I'm sure you're right but it's not a great look that a dad wracked with grief can even think about his own needs at that moment.

That early on in the grief process most people need help even eating or showering.