OH - Pike Co - 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered - 4 Wagner Family Members Arrested #87

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Interesting. Deering however, did not deny the transcripts. He did explain reasons why the jury having them could be a bad idea. Deering's explanation sounded very fair. That having the transcripts could put too much weight on Jake's testimony.

What did Jake's testimony say? His testimony said George was at the crime scenes participating in the murders amongst other incriminating statements against George such as burying evidence and helping to buy and modify the "murder" truck.

So actually, by the jury choosing NOT to use the transcripts, it was actually FAVORABLE to George.

Had the jury used Jake's transcripts then the appeals attorneys could say the jury unfairly put too much of their deliberations into the transcripts which were negative to George. Plus they could complain that the jury didn't get to see other transcripts that may have been more favorable to George.

So I do not see the transcript situation as helping George if he appeals. An attorney could weigh in which would be nice.

Does anyone know how to find a list of verified attorneys who are on Websleuths? I only know of 2.
Sometimes the simple answer is the answer. They might have all just known and they did the initial vote and it wasn't difficult because there was no disagreement. The charges were not complicated. They didn't have to decided did he actually physically do the murdering, was it manslaughter, was it 1st degree, etc. They just had to decide if he knew before. It was very simple because if they thought he knew or had any involvement big or small, he was guilty. Some cases it's a matter of arguing over degree of murder or is it manslaughter, was it an accident, was it intentional, etc. This was easy in that way because if they all believed he was involved in any way, he was guilty.

We've spent years looking at this case and seeing things the jury didn't, looking up good and bad about the victims, the accused and so many theories we've discussed angles we've looked at or connections between people that we know about and the jury just had what was presented in court. We don't even have all of that because some people opted out. I think we all made it more complicated and maybe some expected it to be proven he was actually there that night. I can remove Jake and Angela from testifying and still see proof that he knew and participated. That is all the state had to prove.
 
I gave some thought on how the jury may have decided guilty. The small circumstantial evidence pieces are like grains of sand. If you have enough sand you get a sand dune. I think they heard enough small things that couldn’t be ignored and it was enough to see the guilt….
 
Sometimes the simple answer is the answer. They might have all just known and they did the initial vote and it wasn't difficult because there was no disagreement. The charges were not complicated. They didn't have to decided did he actually physically do the murdering, was it manslaughter, was it 1st degree, etc. They just had to decide if he knew before. It was very simple because if they thought he knew or had any involvement big or small, he was guilty. Some cases it's a matter of arguing over degree of murder or is it manslaughter, was it an accident, was it intentional, etc. This was easy in that way because if they all believed he was involved in any way, he was guilty.

We've spent years looking at this case and seeing things the jury didn't, looking up good and bad about the victims, the accused and so many theories we've discussed angles we've looked at or connections between people that we know about and the jury just had what was presented in court. We don't even have all of that because some people opted out. I think we all made it more complicated and maybe some expected it to be proven he was actually there that night. I can remove Jake and Angela from testifying and still see proof that he knew and participated. That is all the state had to prove.

AH...Occam's razor....The simplest answer is often the answer.

Someone else, or maybe it was you, posted the same thing. That the jury didn't need to debate and agree on every detail such as who wore what size shoes, who did this, who bought that, whatever. All these details we zeroed in on and some thought had to be proven.

They basically had to believe George was part of the Conspiracy.

I still struggle with what would have happened to the jury thought process if Jake and Angela hadn't testified.

I still wonder how much weight their testimony had.

I like your confident statement:

"I can remove Jake and Angela from testifying and still see proof that he knew and participated. That is all the state had to prove."

I wish I could see this as you do. Eventually I will go back and review the evidence against George from the perspective of leaving out Jake and Angela's testimony. I still am not convinced the jury did not need their testimony to convict George. It bugs me for some reason.
 
Your welcome, and nice to see someone new posting!

We try to be nice...LOL...!!!!

Speak for yourself! LMAO


Here is a link to verified members, scroll down the page, the list is in alphabetical order by profession and also insiders.

 
Speak for yourself! LMAO


Here is a link to verified members, scroll down the page, the list is in alphabetical order by profession and also insiders.


Thank you for this list of verified members, that it is in alphabetical order is very helpful!
Also very nice to see insiders listed. I always greatly appreciate it when an insider shares their knowledge about a topic under discussion. Very helpful and interesting. Verified members too, I appreciate what they add to discussions.
 
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I gave some thought on how the jury may have decided guilty. The small circumstantial evidence pieces are like grains of sand. If you have enough sand you get a sand dune. I think they heard enough small things that couldn’t be ignored and it was enough to see the guilt….

Kind of like a dung beetle starting out with dung, and look how large the dung ball becomes before he's finished. :eek: Crazy comparison I know. :D
 
I gave some thought on how the jury may have decided guilty. The small circumstantial evidence pieces are like grains of sand. If you have enough sand you get a sand dune. I think they heard enough small things that couldn’t be ignored and it was enough to see the guilt….
I agree with your analogy. And for me, GW’s own testimony sealed it for me. He confidently bragged about their family’s dysfunctional dynamic beginning in their early years in terms of being a “unit,” with the 4 of them involved and in the know of every decision and crime. He disparaged Jake for being too honest, an introvert, and more inclined to stay inside and play video games instead of hunt, kill, drink, chase girls, and party. He boasted about coming to blows with his father multiple times. His unpredictable and irrational rage spoke volumes on the recordings, as did his disdain for his family during testimony. He had an incredible memory for detail going back 20 years….except when it came to the murders. His body language clearly indicated every attempt at deception: when he made a true statement (in his mind, at least), he maintained eye contact and usually had a wry expression or even a slight smirk and often threw in a side of humor. This strongly contrasted with his demeanor when he wanted to conceal the truth or some aspect of his feelings: he then looked down and hid behind his eyelids. JMHO
 
Jmo I’m glad the family feels some peace, but the state in my opinion was not responsible for the conviction of George. It was just what I said, Jake took away the ability for people to decide his fate and so the jury used George to feel like the Wagner’s were punished. Jmo
You are 100% correct. The state wasn't responsible for George's conviction. GW4 is solely responsible for his conviction for his cowardly acts before, during and after the murder of 8 innocent folks.
 
I agree with your analogy. And for me, GW’s own testimony sealed it for me. He confidently bragged about their family’s dysfunctional dynamic beginning in their early years in terms of being a “unit,” with the 4 of them involved and in the know of every decision and crime. He disparaged Jake for being too honest, an introvert, and more inclined to stay inside and play video games instead of hunt, kill, drink, chase girls, and party. He boasted about coming to blows with his father multiple times. His unpredictable and irrational rage spoke volumes on the recordings, as did his disdain for his family during testimony. He had an incredible memory for detail going back 20 years….except when it came to the murders. His body language clearly indicated every attempt at deception: when he made a true statement (in his mind, at least), he maintained eye contact and usually had a wry expression or even a slight smirk and often threw in a side of humor. This strongly contrasted with his demeanor when he wanted to conceal the truth or some aspect of his feelings: he then looked down and hid behind his eyelids. JMHO
I've been thinking about this since the verdict and I agree with every word you've posted here. And that's why I never doubted he would be convicted once I saw him on the stand. His contempt for his ex-wife, her family, the Rhodens and especially Hanna, his own family and the law were on full display. He not only failed to show remorse for the various crimes he admitted to, he bragged about them. And he was as whacko about seeing everyone not a Wagner a potential source of child sexual abuse as his crazy, evil mother. Hanna posed a threat to his control over his son, as she was showing TC it was possible to stand up to the Wagners regarding custody. And that guy on the witness stand would not have been able to tolerate opposition.
 
I have to be honest. If not for the stupidity of AW leaving a truck load of bread crumbs for detectives I really don't know if there would have been a happy ending. If not for AW and JW I'm not sure how the verdict would have went.
GWIV did a lot of damage to himself with his actions and double talk in interviews and in testimony. All those add up. The most unbelievable, to me anyway,
was Defense hinting that he wasn’t along, but, if they believed he was, he went along to protect JW from GWIII… You can’t claim no knowledge of what happened and be there to protect JW…
I think AC was mocking his selective memory when she asked if he needed a transcript of his Montana interview to recall what he said. I think that was how the jury took it, also, ridiculous that he couldn’t remember what he said. Then in a recording, he chided JW for not remembering what movie they supposedly watched that night as proof of innocence…
 
I have to be honest. If not for the stupidity of AW leaving a truck load of bread crumbs for detectives I really don't know if there would have been a happy ending. If not for AW and JW I'm not sure how the verdict would have went.
GWIV did a lot of damage to himself with his actions and double talk in interviews and in testimony. All those add up. The most unbelievable, to me anyway,
was Defense hinting that he wasn’t along, but, if they believed he was, he went along to protect JW from GWIII… You can’t claim no knowledge of what happened and be there to protect JW…
I think AC was mocking his selective memory when she asked if he needed a transcript of his Montana interview to recall what he said. I think that was how the jury took it, also, ridiculous that he couldn’t remember what he said. Then in a recording, he chided JW for not remembering what movie they supposedly watched that night as proof of innocence…
 
GWIV did a lot of damage to himself with his actions and double talk in interviews and in testimony. All those add up. The most unbelievable, to me anyway,
was Defense hinting that he wasn’t along, but, if they believed he was, he went along to protect JW from GWIII… You can’t claim no knowledge of what happened and be there to protect JW…
I think AC was mocking his selective memory when she asked if he needed a transcript of his Montana interview to recall what he said. I think that was how the jury took it, also, ridiculous that he couldn’t remember what he said. Then in a recording, he chided JW for not remembering what movie they supposedly watched that night as proof of innocence…
RBBM
As AC put it at some point “All kinds of mysteries“.. I usually dislike it when witnesses are mocked on the stand, but this makes me laugh to this day.
 
GWIV did a lot of damage to himself with his actions and double talk in interviews and in testimony. All those add up. The most unbelievable, to me anyway,
was Defense hinting that he wasn’t along, but, if they believed he was, he went along to protect JW from GWIII… You can’t claim no knowledge of what happened and be there to protect JW…
I think AC was mocking his selective memory when she asked if he needed a transcript of his Montana interview to recall what he said. I think that was how the jury took it, also, ridiculous that he couldn’t remember what he said. Then in a recording, he chided JW for not remembering what movie they supposedly watched that night as proof of innocence…
100%. I luv it
 
RBBM
As AC put it at some point “All kinds of mysteries“.. I usually dislike it when witnesses are mocked on the stand, but this makes me laugh to this day.
And we likely don’t know all the discrepancies that the jury heard with the opt-outs. If he wasn’t standing beside JW when the 1911 was bought, he knew as soon as he saw JW again. JW bought it and didn’t tell his brother, whom he spent his whole life with nearly shoulder to shoulder?
From the way it sounded to me he had a truck load of BS he was trying to sell that he was making up as he talked. He couldn’t comprehend that someone may not believe him. I don’t think he believes anything he does is wrong whether it is spotlighting deer or insurance fraud by arson…
 
If i didnt work so much id be able to answer this myself, but which property was signed to JW and GW4 to skip inheritance taxes? I seem to remember GW3 and AW being skipped and it went straight to the boys. Was it Flying W? If so, does FW hold life estate? All very interesting.

Lord let it be that the wagner empire ends up in the hands of Rhodens and Gilleys
 
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