OH - Pike Co - 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue - 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #77

[Pru2U]

but GW now knew that LE were focusing on his family, he must have been aware that if arrested he would lose his son, if convicted never see him again, I expect he was terrified, IMO

Exactly, and I think this is why it will be pertinent to the jury.

I agree with the rest of your post - and while I may not agree with ALL your posts, I value your input because you provide thoughtful, level headed observations that set aside emotions. Same for Raisin. I like that balance. Whether actively participating in this forum or not, most of us have been following this case for the full seven years. We are emotionally invested. We also have so much more information (admissible or not) than the jury will ever hear. Our scale is already tipped. Your strong suit is bringing balance to the discussion and I appreciate that.

 

[pamelado2]

Also, a March 21, 2016 purchase posted to #GeorgeWagnerIV's Cabela's VISA for $630.59. Not sure what the purchase was
@LawCrimeNetwork

A closer look at power point shows the fraud department with Cabela's VISA contacted #GeorgeWagnerIV first. 3/17 incoming call to GW4, then two outgoing calls from his phone to the fraud dept. the day after AW called signal jammer customer service dept.

So, was George Wagner's Cabela's Visa used to purchase items without his knowledge? Remember, it appeared his Cabela's VISA and bill were found in the belongings on 41 on May 12, 2017 search. Did Angela have his card?

phone calls were placed to the Cabela's Visa card fraud department on the same date: 3/16 and 3/17. That seems odd.

Julia Eveslage of BCI going through purchases she says the Wagners made in months before murders, including a signal jammer, bug detector, MagLite (for homemade suppressor). One item purchased using Angela W's email but George W's Cabela's credit card.
https://twitter.com/Angenette5

If the fraud department made the first call, then they flagged the purchase as suspicious. To me this receipt is the biggest piece of evidence against him!

If he says - "of course I was angry in all those conversations, I am innocent I didn't know anything about it!" What would the prosecution say? But there's a receipt showing you bought all these supplies, then what?!?

 

[Cool Cats]

well on that listening to about the finances, GW was involved with many insurance claims in 2014, the state may have other witnesses who will show the claims were fraudulent or not,

I am perplexed about where the 174,000 dollars cheque came from in 2014, I heard that GW and JW grandparents gave them 33,000 dollars - but where did the rest come from, I assume it was to buy Peterson Rd

GW's ex testified the Bethel Rd. fire claim insurance money paid for the Peterson Rd. property.

$33,000 would make a good down payment if they took out a mortgage but I think it was bought outright with the check you mention. I know some posters found property records that gave some detail.

I suspect the parent's credit wasn't good since they used George's credit - or were going to use - George's credit to buy the home in AK. Then they did 2 fraudulent Missouri loans listed in evidence that the banks turned down. Trying to buy a house.

176 Highway P, Long Lane, MO 65590 - realtor.com®

Missouri (Discovery)
Angela Discovery March 20, 2019

176 Highway P Property
BCI Photos (36)
Listing Written Description (8 pp)
Photos From Listing (60)
Fairway Lending Subpoena (1 p)
Fairway Lending -- Residential Loan Application (202 pp)
Movement Mortgage
Mortage Documents

Apr 10, 2017
Price Changed to $199,000

Angela Wagner | PDF

Angela Wagner

www.scribd.com

 

[CIA Team Member]

JMO, its highly likely that's the way FW & her husband ran their family. Billy was "home schooled" back when that was very unusual, not well established and not accepted by the state board of education.

Yup. I was implying FW gave JW and George the one home. Therefore, an enmeshed family would continue. FW didn't give JW and George an individual home. This home was to be shared with JW and George's family living together in that ONE home.

 

[Betty P]

the conversation between GW and his son was weird, but I am aware of the unusual upbringing both JW and GW had, and how they had never seen what normal parents do, I imagine by the time they could walk both JW and GW had such a fear of the outside world, of the strange people out there that AW told them about that they were paranoid and suspicious of everybody

but however we view that conversation it doesn't add anything to the evidence of the murders, it just shows that GW was convinced TC had somehow come to the border to steal his son, (I do wonder if BCI had somehow made GW think she was there) and he was ranting, to the wrong person as his son couldn't understand what his dad was going on about, but GW now knew that LE were focusing on his family, he must have been aware that if arrested he would lose his son, if convicted never see him again, I expect he was terrified, IMO

I am of the firm opinion that nobody is all good or all bad, and if GW did commit these heinous crimes he should be punished, but I can also understand the devastation he must feel at losing his son, and the rest of his nuclear family, and I can have empathy and sympathy for him even if he caused the losses he now suffers

that doesn't take away from my empathy and sympathy for all the victims, who will grieve for the rest of their lives, and how horrifying these crimes were, and how I hope SW and BVW are being raised in a home where AW malign influence has been removed, and that they are surrounded by love and are helped to live with what has happened,

Yes, it showed how 3 generations learned and lived as an "enmeshed" family.

While most enmeshed families become that way because of trauma or addiction or a family member with mental or some chronic illness, I think the Wagner family's cause for being "enmeshed" was based on something else. To put it kindly, they were enmeshed because of their unique economic system, of providing for the family and it's "business", much like an organized crime family. Their way of life created a repetitious cycle of anxiety, paranoia about outsiders and rigid rules about loyalty and behavior within the family.

Parents in criminal families love their children like everyone else, but they have to accept the penalty for helping end the lives of other families who did them no harm. As much as George or Jake or Billy might love their kids, those kids will probably be better off being raised by loving families that aren't criminally dysfunctional. The cycle of inter-generational crime has to be broken.

JMO

 

[rebelchild]

Sorry, I was incorrect, see my edit above.

There's two parts of the video, I'm currently beyond an hour into part one and haven't found it.

If you haven't found it yet it's towards the very end of yesterday's testimony .. after the jurors were sent home and the defense was having the judge listen to the tape. I believe it was right after the first tape was played for him.

 

[Myland]

Jmo but wasn’t there something wrote on Angela’s calendar about fraud department and phone numbers, it wasn’t her calendar, it was her bill listing

 

[Myland]

Jmo that screenshot and credit purchases for 630.00 is a stretch. For one it sounded like Angela was looking the item up and two no proof of what was purchased. If anything it made me wonder if Angela was essentially stealing from her son. We know she steals from anyone she can. Jmo

 

[abeaman02]

Canepa said the truck recordings will be more damming against George. Read this yesterday but lost track of where I read it.

I am guessing it's when BCI bugged their work long road hauler semi.

I hope this is true. Will post link if I find it.

@ColMustard and @justtrish
Listen on the Law and Crime day 24 part 2 tape. After the judge dismissed the jury yesterday, and they were discussing the tapes and whether they should play the entire tape, starting at about 1 hour 55 minutes in. AC states she feels alot of the stuff they have is D**ming, and the 2018 intercept wire is going to be 4 to 5 times worse, and even more damaging to GWIV

 

[ColMustard]

@ColMustard and @justtrish
Listen on the Law and Crime day 24 part 2 tape. After the judge dismissed the jury yesterday, and they were discussing the tapes and whether they should play the entire tape, starting at about 1 hour 55 minutes in. AC states she feels alot of the stuff they have is D**ming, and the 2018 intercept wire is going to be 4 to 5 times worse, and even more damaging to GWIV

Thanks.

I posted the video clip on page 53.

 

[ColMustard]

If you haven't found it yet it's towards the very end of yesterday's testimony .. after the jurors were sent home and the defense was having the judge listen to the tape. I believe it was right after the first tape was played for him.

Thanks.

I posted the video clip on page 53.

 

[sunshineray]

I had to stop watching earlier..to watch the Yanks win...did that forensic accountant have any bombshells? Is it worth going back and watching? It was almost 4pm when I left.

 

[justtrish]

Found it, will try to get the link.

In part two from yesterday, just after 1:55:14 to 1:56:12. Video will start at that point.

Perfect thank you! I knew I heard it!

4-5x the stuff is coming and some of it extremely damning to the defendant specifically.

I'm here for it! Bring it on! I can't wait to hear George's own mouth sink him.

 

[Puzzles8]

Perfect thank you! I knew I heard it!

4-5x the stuff is coming and some of it extremely damning to the defendant specifically.

I'm here for it! Bring it on! I can't wait to hear George's own mouth sink him.

I hope they focus the camera on George while these conversations are being played.

Doubt there will be any snickers at the defense table...

JMO

 

[justtrish]

You know what I was just thinking about how complex this case it, but yet how simple it is.

It's simple because they are all connected, one family did this and took out another family.

It's complex because it's rural Ohio, they left no DNA, no video, no cell evidence (as in they left phones at home), no surviving eyewitnesses (other than a 2-3 year old and 2 infants )

Another thing I have been thinking about it the timing of the arrests. I think what they have on the intercepts from Jake and George driving truck will be damning. They made the arrests after those intercepts and before anyone had confessed, so I don't think they would arrest without full confidence they could get a conviction. They waited all this time and were patient so why arrest when they did, unless they finally had something that put them over the edge to thinking, this is it, we have enough.. Then the confessions just confirmed many things they figured out and gave them some additional details they didn't know. I think they both likely make statements that show they have knowledge that otherwise would not be known unless they participated or had first hand knowledge of something (weather that is evidence, purchases made, details of the crimes, etc I don't know).

So because we haven't gotten to that part in the investigation yet where they finally had enough and said this is it.. I'm still trusting what is coming is what is going to show us all what lead them to believe at xyz moment they knew they had enough. Maybe that thing or those things will be what also convince all those doubters here. Why would we expect to have that yet when the investigation didn't have it yet? They are going in order so if at this point they didn't have enough to arrest (because they didn't arrest yet) then that's probably why many are feeling like where is the evidence sealing the deal for George? I think it's coming and it won't necessarily be Jake and Angela. I am ready for that because I want to hear from them exactly what was going on, why, who, where, etc. I also think we will not need them though to have enough to convict. I think what their stories will do is possibly answer any unanswered questions for the jury, it will give insight that the evidence we have doesn't give. It's hard to explain the unfathomable to people that don't think like the Wagner's do. Who better to explain it than the Wagner's.

If the defense is going to be he wasn't there, didn't know, etc. It will be a mistake. If it's going to be he went along to protect Jake, he didn't know they were murdering anyone, or he didn't shoot, etc He should have came forward and confessed and got a deal. I'm starting to believe he was just as invested and I'm not exactly sure what motive he had personally, but I am starting to feel that something in him wanted to do this just as badly. Was it jealousy of Frankie? Was it truly anger for Hannah and Chris Sr. for wanting to take custody of Sophia? I am not sure what it is, but hearing his voice on these tapes and seeing how he gets set off.. my gut is telling me something else was going on with him to give him motive too. I know my gut doesn't mean anything, but just wanted to share. Maybe someone else is having a different view of George after hearing the conversations, after seeing the banking so intertwined too. He is up to his neck in doodoo.

 

[Cool Cats]

You know what I was just thinking about how complex this case it, but yet how simple it is.

It's simple because they are all connected, one family did this and took out another family.

It's complex because it's rural Ohio, they left no DNA, no video, no cell evidence (as in they left phones at home), no surviving eyewitnesses (other than a 2-3 year old and 2 infants )

Another thing I have been thinking about it the timing of the arrests. I think what they have on the intercepts from Jake and George driving truck will be damning. They made the arrests after those intercepts and before anyone had confessed, so I don't think they would arrest without full confidence they could get a conviction. They waited all this time and were patient so why arrest when they did, unless they finally had something that put them over the edge to thinking, this is it, we have enough.. Then the confessions just confirmed many things they figured out and gave them some additional details they didn't know. I think they both likely make statements that show they have knowledge that otherwise would not be known unless they participated or had first hand knowledge of something (weather that is evidence, purchases made, details of the crimes, etc I don't know).

So because we haven't gotten to that part in the investigation yet where they finally had enough and said this is it.. I'm still trusting what is coming is what is going to show us all what lead them to believe at xyz moment they knew they had enough. Maybe that thing or those things will be what also convince all those doubters here. Why would we expect to have that yet when the investigation didn't have it yet? They are going in order so if at this point they didn't have enough to arrest (because they didn't arrest yet) then that's probably why many are feeling like where is the evidence sealing the deal for George? I think it's coming and it won't necessarily be Jake and Angela. I am ready for that because I want to hear from them exactly what was going on, why, who, where, etc. I also think we will not need them though to have enough to convict. I think what their stories will do is possibly answer any unanswered questions for the jury, it will give insight that the evidence we have doesn't give. It's hard to explain the unfathomable to people that don't think like the Wagner's do. Who better to explain it than the Wagner's.

If the defense is going to be he wasn't there, didn't know, etc. It will be a mistake. If it's going to be he went along to protect Jake, he didn't know they were murdering anyone, or he didn't shoot, etc He should have came forward and confessed and got a deal. I'm starting to believe he was just as invested and I'm not exactly sure what motive he had personally, but I am starting to feel that something in him wanted to do this just as badly. Was it jealousy of Frankie? Was it truly anger for Hannah and Chris Sr. for wanting to take custody of Sophia? I am not sure what it is, but hearing his voice on these tapes and seeing how he gets set off.. my gut is telling me something else was going on with him to give him motive too. I know my gut doesn't mean anything, but just wanted to share. Maybe someone else is having a different view of George after hearing the conversations, after seeing the banking so intertwined too. He is up to his neck in doodoo.

Your Quote:

They waited all this time and were patient so why arrest when they did, unless they finally had something that put them over the edge to thinking, this is it, we have enough..

*************************************************************************************************

The silencer found in the cistern in their barn was the final piece of evidence they needed to make arrests.

Homemade silencer last piece of evidence in Pike County murder case

Final evidence piece was secured just after Mike DeWine was elected governor.

www.daytondailynews.com

Homemade silencer last piece of evidence in Pike County murder case.

After tens of thousands of hours of investigative work over 2½ years, the final clue in the investigation of the murder of eight people in Pike County came a week ago, according to law enforcement officials.

That’s when authorities confirmed the existence of a homemade silencer they say was built by the suspects.
They sent it for ballistic analysis and it came back positive to connect the Wagners.

“This particular evidence, along with all the other pieces of this giant puzzle, all the other key evidence in this investigation, have led us to today’s charges and arrest,” said Ohio Attorney General Mike DeWine in announcing charges against six family members Tuesday.

They received more than 1,100 tips from the public, conducted 550 interviews, tested more than 700 pieces of evidence, and served more than 200 search warrants, subpoenas and court orders.

“We have been patient when it was painful to be, running down every lead, no matter how small,” said Pike County Sheriff Charles Reader.

“Members of one family conspired, planned, carried out and then allegedly covered up their violent act to wipe out members of another family. They did this quickly, coldly, calmly and very carefully. But not carefully enough. They left traces, they left a trail. The parts to build a silencer, the forged documents, the cameras, cellphones, all that they tampered with. And the lies, all the lies they told us.”

 

[Caylee Advocate]

Just a wild guess, at least $100/hr per man. In this situation I wouldn't be surprised at all to find it's a heckuva lot more. Don't ever call your lawyer on the phone, that's $100/hr with a half hour minimum. I lost $3k just returning phone calls with one, talk 3 minutes, get billed 30 min.

Out of the loop today, did hear some of the audio, but don't think I missed much.

Shockingly they are very underpaid in Ohio, especially when it's a murder trial.

Each Ohio county sets its own pay scale for appointed attorneys

COLUMBUS — If your loved one were charged with rape or murder, would you want him to rely on an attorney who would be paid no more than $500 to defend him?

www.daytondailynews.com

 

[Caylee Advocate]

I think it was said the crib was SR's baby crib.

As much as some of us may dislike JW being her father, she did carry his last name, so SW is her initials not SR unfortunately. I'm thinking it's just a typo. Sad,

 

[Puzzles8]

Shockingly they are very underpaid in Ohio, especially when it's a murder trial.

Each Ohio county sets its own pay scale for appointed attorneys

COLUMBUS — If your loved one were charged with rape or murder, would you want him to rely on an attorney who would be paid no more than $500 to defend him?

www.daytondailynews.com

Sadly, this is true in most states.
Both Public Defenders and Prosecutors are vastly underpaid. They could all make much more money in the private sector. Those that do this for a living have a stoic calling.

JMO
ETA - what I'm saying applies to Official State/County Prosecutors as well as State/County Public Defenders.

I don't know the pay scale involved when the State needs to hire an outside Defense Attorney.

 

[Betty P]

You know what I was just thinking about how complex this case it, but yet how simple it is.

It's simple because they are all connected, one family did this and took out another family.

It's complex because it's rural Ohio, they left no DNA, no video, no cell evidence (as in they left phones at home), no surviving eyewitnesses (other than a 2-3 year old and 2 infants )

Another thing I have been thinking about it the timing of the arrests. I think what they have on the intercepts from Jake and George driving truck will be damning. They made the arrests after those intercepts and before anyone had confessed, so I don't think they would arrest without full confidence they could get a conviction. They waited all this time and were patient so why arrest when they did, unless they finally had something that put them over the edge to thinking, this is it, we have enough.. Then the confessions just confirmed many things they figured out and gave them some additional details they didn't know. I think they both likely make statements that show they have knowledge that otherwise would not be known unless they participated or had first hand knowledge of something (weather that is evidence, purchases made, details of the crimes, etc I don't know).

So because we haven't gotten to that part in the investigation yet where they finally had enough and said this is it.. I'm still trusting what is coming is what is going to show us all what lead them to believe at xyz moment they knew they had enough. Maybe that thing or those things will be what also convince all those doubters here. Why would we expect to have that yet when the investigation didn't have it yet? They are going in order so if at this point they didn't have enough to arrest (because they didn't arrest yet) then that's probably why many are feeling like where is the evidence sealing the deal for George? I think it's coming and it won't necessarily be Jake and Angela. I am ready for that because I want to hear from them exactly what was going on, why, who, where, etc. I also think we will not need them though to have enough to convict. I think what their stories will do is possibly answer any unanswered questions for the jury, it will give insight that the evidence we have doesn't give. It's hard to explain the unfathomable to people that don't think like the Wagner's do. Who better to explain it than the Wagner's.

If the defense is going to be he wasn't there, didn't know, etc. It will be a mistake. If it's going to be he went along to protect Jake, he didn't know they were murdering anyone, or he didn't shoot, etc He should have came forward and confessed and got a deal. I'm starting to believe he was just as invested and I'm not exactly sure what motive he had personally, but I am starting to feel that something in him wanted to do this just as badly. Was it jealousy of Frankie? Was it truly anger for Hannah and Chris Sr. for wanting to take custody of Sophia? I am not sure what it is, but hearing his voice on these tapes and seeing how he gets set off.. my gut is telling me something else was going on with him to give him motive too. I know my gut doesn't mean anything, but just wanted to share. Maybe someone else is having a different view of George after hearing the conversations, after seeing the banking so intertwined too. He is up to his neck in doodoo.

I think GW4 became upset when he realized Hanna and Tabitha were communicating and strategizing about how to keep custody of their children and expose the Wagners for being abusive. He was afraid Hanna would talk Tabitha into fighting back for shared custody, preventing him from moving to AK. We know from the recordings, he was nearly hysterical when he screamed at Vine about Tabitha being able to take him away to bad people, etc.

A pathologically enmeshed family can apparently become dangerous when "outsiders" to the family threaten to remove a family member from their control. Obsessive abusers can become very dangerous when the person they control is at risk of leaving them. Look at how many divorced parents end up killing their ex wives and children, as well as outsiders assisting the abused family members to leave.