PA PA - Carol Dougherty, 9, Bristol, 22 Oct 1962

[:+:MrTT:+:]

i just came back from st mark. Took a picture of the front as it faces radcliffe st. I searched graveyard and could not find a grave for her there.

Now you have to forgive me because i am novice. So if you point me in the right direction i am happy to search for more information. The library is close and i could go there on tuesday and search for old newspaper info. ( do they still have that stuff on microfilm?) i am not sure what papers were local then so i will have to ask. At least i have a date to look for. The bucks county courier times in right around the corner. I can call them and look for old articles maybe pictures?

I am happy to do ground work but i am not sure where to start.

bump.

 

[Robin Hood]

I'm still looking at the '12' connection. I would love to see the info re. the removal of Sabadish from his other posts.
I shall think about what Pirplegrl need to search for and post when I've given it more thought.
I really think some priest took a confession and was hinting at Sabadish. The only way another person would know who killed Carol Ann is if they were there and helped, if they were told or if they witnessed it. IMO anyway.

Edited to add link
http://www.phillyburbs.com/blogs/new...tml?mode=story

''Earlier this year, as the 50th anniversary approached, I and several editors began receiving odd emails, cryptic in tone, from an anonymous writer who said Carol’s killer would be revealed at least.

The last email message came last summer and said I would be contacted by phone but, so far, nothing''

I'm tempted to contact the writer and ask what the cryptic notes contained.

 

[Robin Hood]

http://crimsonshadows.net/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=68

''She had been raped and then strangled with what investigator characterized as a "slim jim" belt. The scant clues left at the crime scene suggested the assailant was neither Black or Hispanic, and that he was either very old, very young, or impotent''

''Among the many individuals interviewed and then released in 1962, one individual not only seemed to fit the profile--he had claimed to a friend that he was sterile--but failed the lie detector test as well. (Canavan, Bucks County Courier Times, 1977)

That individual was Reverend Joseph F. Sabadish, who was transferred from the parish shortly after the child's murder. J.D. Mullane covers the Grand Jury inquiry into the Philadelphia Archdiocese child sexual abuse complaints as well as making a compelling argument with regard to Father Sabadish as being the most likely suspect for the murder of Carol Ann Dougherty. Reverend Sabadish passed away in 1999. (Philly Burbs, 2005)''

So, did he pass the lie detector or not ?

 

[bessie]

http://crimsonshadows.net/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=68

''She had been raped and then strangled with what investigator characterized as a "slim jim" belt. The scant clues left at the crime scene suggested the assailant was neither Black or Hispanic, and that he was either very old, very young, or impotent''

''Among the many individuals interviewed and then released in 1962, one individual not only seemed to fit the profile--he had claimed to a friend that he was sterile--but failed the lie detector test as well. (Canavan, Bucks County Courier Times, 1977)

That individual was Reverend Joseph F. Sabadish, who was transferred from the parish shortly after the child's murder. J.D. Mullane covers the Grand Jury inquiry into the Philadelphia Archdiocese child sexual abuse complaints as well as making a compelling argument with regard to Father Sabadish as being the most likely suspect for the murder of Carol Ann Dougherty. Reverend Sabadish passed away in 1999. (Philly Burbs, 2005)''

So, did he pass the lie detector or not ?

Other reports say he lied about his whereabouts at the time of the murder. I'll find a link.

ETA:

His story about how he had been visiting parishioners at the time of Carol’s murder proved untrue, when the parishioners said he hadn’t been there.

http://www.phillyburbs.com/blogs/ne...2-4fcf-5197-9306-be0506fe9b72.html?mode=story

 

[Robin Hood]

My post yesterday 3.56pm Bessie.

 

[bessie]

I just talked to my grandmother. Who remembered it well. She said at the time her cousins lived there along with her Aunt and Uncle. She told me at the time her cousins said that people all "knew" it was the priest. My cousins were not catholic so they talked about it but She said that the catholics were afraid to.

I'm not surprised at what your cousins said. Serious allegations were made against this priest by a pair of siblings who claim he abused
both of them as children beginning in 1960.

Haunted by Carol Ann Dougherty's Murder

Bucks County Courier Times
October 4, 2005

The sexual abuse Joan McCrane endured from Father Joseph Sabadish began, she said, innocently. "Tickling," she said. "He'd put his

hands on my shoulders. Then, on my chest. Then, down my pants." It was 1960. She was 7.

Nelis, who no longer lives in

the area, was permitted to submit a written statement that was read into the testimony.

"I hated the guy, I was afraid of him," Nelis said of Sabadish. "He didn't like kids. He'd slap you around, call you stupid. You never knew
what would set him off."

http://www.bishop-accountability.or...yCourierTimes_HauntedBy_Joseph_Sabadish_1.htm

http://www.eurekaencyclopedia.com/index.php/Category:Diocesan_Cases_of_Philadelphia

http://www.catholicsexabuse.com/THE...se_of_Philadelphia_Priest_Data_Profile_Part_3

http://bishop-accountability.org/priestdb/PriestDBbylastName-S.html

His offenses were not public knowledge at the time they occurred. Back in the 60's, these things were kept quiet, but rumors got around. I'd wager the brother and sister who came forward as adults were not his only victims. They're just the only ones who acknowledged the abuse publicly.

There was a priest like this in our parish when I was growing up in the 1960's. For years it was rumored that he was an abuser, but the abuse went unreported until the late 1980's. First one victim spoke, and several others followed. No one was surprised. If a child had died under circumstances similar to Carol Ann's murder, the residents of my community would have "known" it was him, too, just like your cousins and their neighbors.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I agree. I am sure there are more victims. He as moved around the whole area. Scary stuff..

I contacted Mullane this morning and asked for updates. I don't know if he will respond but if he does, I will forward info.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

So his reply was basically that all the suspects were dead and so police are not interested when they have live suspects to other crimes.

I asked about the 12. No response do far

 

[Robin Hood]

While we wait to see if there's more from Mullane, I will post what I think.

I noticed the rectory was a few houses from the church, what's the betting he wasn't on 'duty' that day but the two Priests who did the last rites over Carol Ann were. It's possible he was about to go and see his flock when he saw Carol Ann go by and stop at the church. Now, I don't know about this because I'm an atheist but she may have stopped to pray or use the facilites there (assuming you can) and that's when he thought he might be able to get away with some abuse.
Carol Ann may have been a more vocal child than the others he abused and refused his advances strongly and thats when he needed to silence her.
IMO he was hoping he'd be off away meeting his parishioners and some other poor chap would get the blame, that includes his two colleagues.
What is odd though, LE did focus on him it appears more than them, so I'd guess they knew far more than what we do reading the articles.
I'd love to have witnessed his last rites when he passed on, I'll bet that was a captive audience.

 

[:+:MrTT:+:]

So his reply was basically that all the suspects were dead and so police are not interested when they have live suspects to other crimes.

I asked about the 12. No response do far

:banghead:Welcome to the world of cold cases.

Still like to see any photos from the day she was found.

Maybe those cryptic notes with the 12 may add some insight.

If there not a hoax. I am sure the LEOs took lots of photos that day. Inside the church and out.
​

 

[:+:MrTT:+:]

http://crimsonshadows.net/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=68

''She had been raped and then strangled with what investigator characterized as a "slim jim" belt. The scant clues left at the crime scene suggested the assailant was neither Black or Hispanic, and that he was either very old, very young, or impotent''

''Among the many individuals interviewed and then released in 1962, one individual not only seemed to fit the profile--he had claimed to a friend that he was sterile--but failed the lie detector test as well. (Canavan, Bucks County Courier Times, 1977)

That individual was Reverend Joseph F. Sabadish, who was transferred from the parish shortly after the child's murder. J.D. Mullane covers the Grand Jury inquiry into the Philadelphia Archdiocese child sexual abuse complaints as well as making a compelling argument with regard to Father Sabadish as being the most likely suspect for the murder of Carol Ann Dougherty. Reverend Sabadish passed away in 1999. (Philly Burbs, 2005)''

So, did he pass the lie detector or not ?

From another link they mentioned they more or less snatched him off the street took where other detectives were and put a wire on him, and asked about the girls murder...And he did pass. So they let him go. Odd the priest if guilty was able to fool the polygraph.

Your crimsonshadows link was a very good read...First I hear about a slim jim belt to strangle her.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

His reply about the number 12, was "a mystery"

So he does not know even still or is not sharing. I wonder if there is some significant in 12 there in Bristol.

 

[Robin Hood]

From another link they mentioned they more or less snatched him off the street took where other detectives were and put a wire on him, and asked about the girls murder...And he did pass. So they let him go. Odd the priest if guilty was able to fool the polygraph.

Your crimsonshadows link was a very good read...First I hear about a slim jim belt to strangle her.

Sodium pentothal -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7773261.stm

I edited to ask if it was Sodium they used or Polygraph ? a case back in 1951 used sodium, maybe it was used in the 1960's too.

 

[Robin Hood]

From Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygraph#United_States

''The polygraph also failed to catch Gary Ridgway, the "Green River Killer". Another suspect named Melvin Foster allegedly failed a given lie detector test whereas Ridgeway passed.[72] Ridgway passed a polygraph in 1984 and confessed almost 20 years later when confronted with DNA evidence.[73]''

 

[Robin Hood]

Found this, some pages are witheld but there's lots that can be read. They have semen and a fingerprint.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...a=X&ei=mLQHUa6gIuPX0QXJuYGYCw&ved=0CGMQ6AEwBw

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Found this, some pages are witheld but there's lots that can be read. They have semen and a fingerprint.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...a=X&ei=mLQHUa6gIuPX0QXJuYGYCw&ved=0CGMQ6AEwBw

Thanks. I think I will see if I can get my hands on the book.

What I keep running into is people who say, Its old and buried. No one will be convicted so what does it matter. Makes me sad/ mad.

Im going to see all that I can find online and then do some history into the town and who was in control at that time. Who was in authority.

Where the church is in town is towards the end of Bristol on the road that runs a long the river. Right now there is an old house that is apts and another building. I did not notice exactly what it was, I am wondering if it was clear to the river then. I know there is an old book on Bristol with pictures of the town from the 1800.

 

[Robin Hood]

Look for an obituary for Sabadish when you check out the library.
I'm still working on 12 but I want what's in the cryptic emails too. I don't think the writer was joking around, I think somebody knows for sure.
In one of the links I gave, it mentions the other two Priests/Monsignor, saying they closed ranks too, guilt makes you do that, not because they did anything but I bet they suspected.
I agree with you it does matter, why are we taking DNA from long dead men interred years ago ? Why ? Because it matters and not one person is above another in the queue.

 

[Ausgirl]

Might be a long shot, Robin - but I'd be checking for who was '12' at the time of the murder.

I do not think that priest wrote or hinted at anything ever, he was a covert and habitual pedophile, no remorse there and I would totally bet the farm on that.

But it's happened many times with pedos like that, that they coerce and warp boys into being 'accomplices'. Gacy did it. Many others have. So I don't think it's a stretch, especially as the writer is ID'ing himself as "12" - it's an alternate name, a label he gives himself when identifying with the crime.

An adult who was traumatised sexually and coerced into complicity in or even just silence about other child rapes is way more likely to have that murder weigh on his conscience and want to speak out about it.

ETA: I think solving these old cases, or at the very least narrowing it down to one really good and likely suspect is tremendously important, not only to the surviving relatives, but to those who've followed the case for years, maybe put some really hard yards into working it, invested in it emotionally, or even just felt compassion for the victim.

We want to know who did it. We need to, for a sense of closure, if not ideal justice.

I understand the cops are probably overworked with active cases - but wow, no need to state that old cases aren't important to anyone. They're sure important to me, and I am 10 thousand miles and many decades away from where this girl and many girls like her died..

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I agree. I will look for obit when I go to library. I'm hoping to get there in next few days.

 

[Robin Hood]

Aus, I'm going to try to find the complete list of the 63 shamed Priests to see if number 12 has a bearing. Thanks for the heads up.