GUILTY PA - Dr. Kermit Gosnell for killing patient, 7 infants, Philadelphia, 2011

[Wazzu]

The jury took a long time because they were required to render 267 separate verdicts.

A thankless task, which they performed admirably.

Agreed! It must have been very difficult to be on this jury. I am curious what factored into the not guilty verdict on one of the murder charges.

The jury will hear arguments in the penalty phase next Tuesday.

 

[JoeFromLB]

He sat there smirking throughout the whole trial, as the horrific details of what he did to those poor babies were narrated. That could not have impressed the jurors.

His lawyer will have a lot of trouble garnering sympathy for him in the penalty phase.

 

[Wisteria]

Justice was done in this case. We will never know how many more deaths he was responsible for as the jury was only presented with evidence of a few- and undoubtedly over 17 years he has done this many times over. I am glad he will be going to jail for probably the rest of his natural life.

 

[Wisteria]

He sat there smirking throughout the whole trial, as the horrific details of what he did to those poor babies were narrated. That could not have impressed the jurors.

His lawyer will have a lot of trouble garnering sympathy for him in the penalty phase.

From the Washington Post:

"Gosnell reacted calmly to the verdicts, but jurors and lawyers displayed more emotion. One prosecutor was sobbing."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...444bdc-bbda-11e2-97d4-a479289a31f9_story.html


I agree this man completely does not recognize what he has done, shows no remorse. I am glad he will be off the streets.

 

[JoeFromLB]

It looks like he's got a little smile going here, on his way back to jail:

http://lifenews.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/gosnell62.png

 

[Wisteria]

He probably will appeal his conviction due to his lawyer not presenting an adequate defense: no witnesses on his own behalf. That is probably why he is smirking. He thinks he knows something we don't know....

 

[Wisteria]

Agreed! It must have been very difficult to be on this jury. I am curious what factored into the not guilty verdict on one of the murder charges.

The jury will hear arguments in the penalty phase next Tuesday.

IMO- they were on the fence on 2 of the babies. I think (MOO) they probably decided to vote guilty on 1 and NG on baby E. It seemed like they resolved some matters pretty quickly today after being divided for a while. I don;t know that is what happened it just seems like a possibility.

 

[Wisteria]

I would like to hear the rest of his charges and rulings on the 200plus counts. He had to know that his goose was cooked. There was no way he was going to get off scott free. Plus there is still this:

"Gosnell still faces federal drug charges. Authorities said that he ranked third in the state for OxyContin prescriptions and that he left blank prescription pads at his office and let staff members make them out to cash-paying patients."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_...d-upset-after-first-degree-murder-conviction/

 

[tlcya]

I am sure this man has convinced himself he was performing a public service all these years.

That is what makes him so very dangerous.

I am glad the jury came back with guilty.

It is just disgusting what he has done and how many infants he has birthed and then murdered afterwards in his facility.

Literally sickening.

 

[PAXIMUS]

What they dont tell you is that an extremely high percentage of these late term abortions are from hard core drug addicted women who let their pregnancies go on too long because of their lifestyle and then they go to him, with deformed and drug addicted fetuses and beg for help, he does the best he can with some very bad and ugly circumstances.

None of this **** is pretty, the dude is doing the best he can in a very very bad environment.

It sells more papers to leave all those ugly details out and just focus on the fact that he is killing babies, ****ing bull****.

It is not as cut and dry as we would like to imagine, there are thousands of women, addicted heroin and crack coming to these clinics every day with late term pregnancies and these doctors are faced with some VERY difficult decisions, there is no where to put these babies when they are born deformed and addicted to drugs, the hospitals dont have room or resources to deal with it on a large scale basis, it is a major ****ing problem in this country that is hidden from most of us who dont see that part of our society on a daily basis and most of whom dont even know it exists.

I dont like any of it either but to suggest, as many have, that this doctor is some sort of psychopathic monster murdering little babies and getting enjoyment out of it is just sick and horribly ignorant to the reality of what that man faces every day. Some close to the situation may even call the guy a saint for what he does, I WOULDNT GO THAT FAR but certainly this guy is faced with very difficult decisions and frankly our health care system is just not equip to deal with these problems so he does the best he can.


I think some people actually think these late term abortions are just regular women or college girls who decide they dont want their kids at the last moment and that is not true, the vast majority of such abortions are from drug addicted women who have let things go because of their lifestyles and then they go and beg for help at the last minute and the doctor who I assume has some level of compassion, does what he can in a very bad situation, he isnt even making money on a lot of those abortions.

Well the churches will help these poor mothers you say?

Sure, the ones who are actually capable of being mothers and just need money or food. What do the churces do for babies born addicted to crack or heroin, go to the hospital and look a newborns addicted to drugs and tell me that this is just a simple problem of offering money and food to help these women steer away from abortion.

I agree that abortion sucks and is a horrible thing and it is very likely murder in every sense of the word but many who are pro life are waaaay over simplifying the reality of the world we live in, parts of this world and our own society are very ugly with some very bad and tragic things going on that there are NO EASY ANSWERS FOR.

We are not talking about women who just screwed up and got pregnant and are potentially aborting heathly babies, that is not what is happening at an inner city clinic in the middle of the hood in Philly, come on.

The problem far exceeds the amount of help out there though and the help is largely geared towards helping women who are having healthy babies and just need food and shelter and not months or years of critical and intensive healthcare because they are born addicted to crack and horribly malnourished.

I am not arguing in favor of what this guy did but lets not fool ourselves here, this guy had some tough decisions to face everyday and I bet dollars to donuts the hospitals and churches werent lining up at his clinic door offering to help. No, they ALL knew what was going on and turned away from it because frankly there are no easy answers to these problems that are going on in every inner city in the country.

The sad part for Dr Gosnell is that the judge wouldnt let the jury hear what I had to say above, it was too inflammatory and would prejudice the jury. Of course it is and would, the truth often does. The guy is going to prison because the prosecution was allowed to get away with painting a picture for the jury that just wasnt a reality.


It is Dr Kevorkian all over again, a generally good and compassionate man trying to help people who are largely helpless, its controversial, its ugly, its not something we all want to hear about, but it is life, its the reality of the world we live in and that is usually ugly, very very ugly.

I wish we lived in Utopia and we didnt have these kinds of problems, but we dont and we do, that is a harsh ****ing fact and its time everyone understand that, life is not all rainbows and unicorns, there is some real ****ed up **** going on while we all live our middle class lives and are largely protected from it, but its going on right under our noses and we persecute the people who have thrown themselves in to it to try and help in any way they can.


I dont know a single person who cheers on abortion (or worships it as some on the right suggest) as a wonderful thing though I am sure such radical left wing fruit loops exist, what I do know is a lot of people who understand there are no easy answers to some of life's very complex and ugly realities and they are open to doing the best we can, even if it isnt perfect, to try and help people in those situations.

I wish we had better answers about how to deal with drug addicted mothers who need late term abortions, but I dont know of any myself, if you do then you have a real chance to make a name for yourself in the world, get off this board and share your knowledge.

When you throw in the fact that many or even most of the women getting the late term abortions are hard core drug addicts forced in to prostitution to support their habits, you are not dealing with a rational mind who can make the kind of decisions we would like see being made wrt to a pregnancy. Friends and colleagues have worked in this area as counselors in the past so it is something I am familiar with and these drug addicts wait till the very last minute to admit to themselves they are actually carrying a real life in their stomach then they panic and go to a Dr Gosnell for help, what is the man supposed to do, deliver the baby and where does he take it once he does, NOBODY WANTS THOSE KIDS and nobody has the money to take care of their MANY MANY health needs.


Its a problem, a real problem that is so big most people just dont want to even know about it.


It is MUCH EASIER and helps us all SLEEP BETTER AT NIGHT to just call the man a monster and throw him in prison and then forget about it and go on watching our soaps and reality tv shows as if it never happened, wont happen again and isnt CONTINUING TO HAPPEN AS WE SPEAK and WONT EVER STOP HAPPENING because this is the world we live in, the world we all contributed to creating, its our bed, we all made it, now sleep in it and stop looking for people to blame and lock up for it.

 

[Wisteria]

Paximus, have you read the grand jury indictment?

 

[Wisteria]

Its a problem, a real problem that is so big most people just dont want to even know about it.


It is MUCH EASIER and helps us all SLEEP BETTER AT NIGHT to just call the man a monster and throw him in prison and then forget about it and go on watching our soaps and reality tv shows as if it never happened, wont happen again and isnt CONTINUING TO HAPPEN AS WE SPEAK and WONT EVER STOP HAPPENING because this is the world we live in, the world we all contributed to creating, its our bed, we all made it, now sleep in it and stop looking for people to blame and lock up for it.

Thank you for your post Paximus. I agree with the above part of your post.
I attempted to discuss this case with people I know. No one had even heard about it. People didn't want to hear what had happened. They didn't want to think about it. Its detestable. For women, and for the babies killed. Society does want to ignore things they don't like, things that make them uncomfortable. They glance at it and quickly look away. The general public at large is not even able to have an informed, civil discussion about the issue of abortion. They say, "I'm pro-choice" or "I'm pro-life" and that is as far as the discussion goes. They don't want to be informed about the procedures or discuss the actual policies and laws, or think about those actually affected by the laws on both ends of the spectrum.

I don't want to merely call Gosnell a monster, lock him up, and forget about him. In fact, now that I know more, I feel accountable for what I know. I feel responsible to help do something.

I also agree that we cannot understand the issues driving women to get these late term abortions. Each woman's story is her own and different from the last. We need to have compassion and empathy for these women who are undoubtedly in difficult and possibly dangerous situations.

I disagree that Gosnell was a well meaning man, just trying to do his best. I think he was a man interested in lining his own pockets. He had so many violations in just the logistical operations of his clinic that even if he was a vet, his clinic should have been shut down. Can you imagine walking in to a vet clinic and seeing cutoff paws in jars from euthanized dogs? Bags of dead animal bodies in the basement and frozen in freezers? Reusing unsterilized, disposable equipment over and over- spreading disease from one patient to the next? It was just clearly malpractice, excluding the tough topic of abortion.

I also want to state that He was probably one of the biggest drug dealers in his neighborhood. If it is true, as you state, that he was mostly aborting deformed, drug addicted women's pregnancies, it may also be true that he played a part in their addictions.

I would like to know where you got your information about the judge not allowing that information in the trial. Do you have a link? I had not seen that and would love to read more about that. I have tried to be informed about everything in this case.

This is an emotionally, politically, and spiritually charged case. It has had me thinking and pondering for weeks. You are correct, Paximus, that this is not cut and dry. It is complicated. I think one of the reasons I got frustrated early on is that usually I could come to this site and get good info and read well thought out discussions on these types of cases. I felt with this case, however, we were all a little afraid to talk about this case, as I said in an earlier post.

I think it is great to have dialogue about these things. How can I truly know how I believe about issues without taking time to learn about the issues? Discussion and even disagreeing with respect causes me to grow as a person.
Thanks everyone on this thread for taking time to post updates and share your thoughts. I truly appreciate it!!!

 

[RoseRed]

Still no JUSTICE for these babies until their so called Mothers are also tried and convicted of murder. These women deserve the death penalty as much as this butcher and his staff. There is no excuse for any of them. These so called women knew what they were doing was against the law and highly immoral. I sincerely pray none of my tax dollars helped pay for the mass murder of innocent babies. JMO MOO

 

[RoseRed]

Justice was done in this case. We will never know how many more deaths he was responsible for as the jury was only presented with evidence of a few- and undoubtedly over 17 years he has done this many times over. I am glad he will be going to jail for probably the rest of his natural life.

Justice will not be done until these so called Mothers are also sentenced to death. They are adults and knew better but just were not human enough to even care. Even animals do not do this to their young.

 

[JoeFromLB]

Gosnell has made a deal with prosecutors to avoid the death penalty.

In exchange for forgoing all appeals, he was sentenced today to two life terms without parole for the murder of two of the infants. He will also be sentenced on Wednesday for the third murder, the overdose death of the patient, and hundreds of other charges.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20130514_ap_convictedpaabortiondoctorgetslifeinprison.html

 

[claudicici]

I have a lot of empathy with the desperate woman that came to him.His actions in no way show that he cared about anything but his pocket book and yes,he did seem to enjoy what he did.He was not helping anyone.He was adding trauma to already desperate situations.There's no way I buy he was trying to do a public service.

 

[Mariel Van Arkle]

The man was a butcher with no regard for the lives of the babies or their mothers. There is no justification and no other way to look at it. He preyed on women in their most vulnerable states, for money. Even drug addicts and drug addicted babies don't deserve to die like this, stripped of dignity and humanity.

 

[Wisteria]

I think we must have sympathy for women in the sense that they are ignorant to what they are really doing. They are being told that their "fetus" is a blob of tissue and that it is not a living being until birth. They are not told the truth and given a true choice when going in for an abortion. Fetal growth and development are not shown to them. The clinics are preying on their desperate emotions for the moment- possibly fear of people finding out they are pregnant or the fear of being unable to support their child. I am sure that there are other women who are addicted to drugs.

I am not excusing the women of their responsibility I am stating that there is a concerted effort by clinics to not give women the full information in their counseling because the clinic wants to make money.

I believe that women very often do leave the clinic with extreme guilt and sadness over what they have done. Very often they experience depression, rage, thoughts of suicide, eating disorders, inability to have good relationships, fear that others will find out.... THe list goes on. Women need support at times like this, and they do not often know their other options.

Also, I think it is very important that we truly take a look at how this type of clinic is allowed to operate. There were so many complaints and botched abortions leading to ER visits over the years that should have lead to an investigation. Yet SEVERAL government agencies failed to follow up. The one that did merely had a "sit down" with Gosnell off site and never even visited the clinic. Why? Was it just an "oops"? I would like to propose it was intentional. The abortion industry is extremely profitable and organizations like PP are powerful in the political arena. Government agencies have a relatively hands off attitude when it comes to regulating and overseeing. For example, Nail salons have greater regulations than abortion clinics in this country. That to me is completely wrong.

We also did not hear much in the MSM about this case. WHy? Because media did not want to bring this clinic to light. If they did, common people would see, and possibly experience outrage, at what is going on at some clinics. The public may begin to ask: If it happens at some places, shouldn't we have stricter regulations, more oversight, more accountability? That discussion is not one that PP wants to have. They feel it will infringe on a woman's right to choose. Is that really the reason? Or is it that they themselves may have greater accountability? Be brought into the light? their own pockets may be less filled?

 

[RoseRed]

Yes but if these same women , addicted to drugs as some would say, killed an adult they would be tried for murder. Why do some try to dumb down society on the abortion issue? I have absolutely no empathy for these women they knowingly murdered these babies. They knew how far along they were. their babies were moving inside them, were viable at birth. They deserve to have their necks slit just like these innocent helpless newborns.
Until we as a modern society hold all accountable we fail as human beings. Another thing these clinics could not operate without the patients. These women have to be held accountable as well as the doctors and clinic staff.

 

[amandab]

Have Gosnell's employees been charged with any crimes?