Patsy Ramsey

Thank you. Yes, I ‘m aware that there are sources wherein White is said to have reported that the window was closed. These reports may or may not be true, all I know is that in his deposition he claims to not remember one way or the other. I think that this throws those other reports – PMPT, etc – into question. The depo is White’s own words, the other reports are not. Who do we believe? Provisionally, I go with the depos.

...



AK


I go with people with no motive to lie, as a general rule. Someone that behaves as if they have nothing to hide.

I don't put my faith in the one whose stories change and are embroidered over time to benefit them and people those that aren't forth coming.

I tend to go with the earliest version as it's closest to the event in time and before memories of the mundane fade.







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Thank you. Yes, I ‘m aware that there are sources wherein White is said to have reported that the window was closed. These reports may or may not be true, all I know is that in his deposition he claims to not remember one way or the other. I think that this throws those other reports – PMPT, etc – into question. The depo is White’s own words, the other reports are not. Who do we believe? Provisionally, I go with the depos.
...

AK

AK, I can see why you go with the statement in the depositon. It's FW's own words under oath. I'm going to stay with with Schiller's information, though. He saw police files and interviews from the period immediately after the murder, which would include FW's freshest recollections of what he saw. When Schiller says FW said the window was closed, I have to assume his assertion is based on a statement in FW's own words recorded in the police file. The deposition was taken in August 2002, at which time FW said he did not remember whether the window was open or closed. I believe he was truthful and no longer remembered what had been clear in his mind over five and a half years earlier.
 
The more I read the more it seems like this was a horrible accident that was frantically covered up (not coordinated very well) by throwing everything at it to make it look like an intruder. Too many little stupid things. Here's another: though they are getting home late and are leaving super early in the morning and still need to finish packing, they read and sing to a sleeping child.
 
The more I read the more it seems like this was a horrible accident that was frantically covered up (not coordinated very well) by throwing everything at it to make it look like an intruder. Too many little stupid things. Here's another: though they are getting home late and are leaving super early in the morning and still need to finish packing, they read and sing to a sleeping child.


Only if anyone actually believes the reading and singing nonsense to be true. I don't.

Sounded like Michael Jackson's claim he read to those boys, fed them milk and cookies and tucked them in.

IMO

People that habitually read to their children and actually tuck them in know exactly what they read. I still remember the books I read and my son is 16 now. They've probably read the same favorite books a hundred times! I know I did.

All IMO




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ST says in this interview that he believes Fleet White opened the window.
Beginning around 2:55

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz_DBZYkPuo

Thank you, DeDee, for the clip. I’m going to explicate it a little further, though, for anyone who doesn’t take the time to listen to it.

St’s main concern is how pristine the crime scene photos are. ST speaks about the window and suggests the problems in determining for a court of law, whether the witness recollection could be backed up. The problem, according to ST, is that FW was in the basement early and may have opened the window, may have moved the suitcase (my emphasis on the word “may”), and the photos the BPD took inside the home are not time-stamped.

The photos taken were as much as 6+ hours after the 911 call and in some cases taken after the warrant in the evening of the 26th. Their investigation team discussed the fact that not time-stamping the photos was a mistake. So, imo, JR could simply say that FW must have opened the window, or even moved the suitcase. No-one could say otherwise, and the photos cannot prove the original state of the window or suitcase.

I go with what Linda7NJ says about a witness who has no stake in lying to Boulder police. A witness would tend to speak of what he saw that morning, without needing to invent anything. FW was interviewed no less than 18 times very early in the case. According to the reports Kolar reviewed, these reports indicate what FW’s statement to the police was about the window. Those interviews took place 12/27/96 to 1/4/97.

For my money the only reason the discussion of the window holds any relevance at all is because of the emphasis used by LS, of intruder entry and exit. And the most important part is that the window is broken, so whether closed or open, doesn’t really matter as much as one might assume, since an intruder could have simply opened the latch through a break and entered. Or broken the window that night. (But if broken that night, where's all the glass??) What’s important is was it a window which was left unrepaired from JR’s previous summer entry? JR doesn’t know. PR doesn’t know. After giving the interviewer a long story about how she and LHP picked up the glass and vacuumed the area carefully (because the kids played down there), she still can’t remember if they ever had the window repaired. Cue music to Meara’s helpful youtube link: Song by Brady "Nobody Knows" :)

The basement was said to be a maze. Moo, the minds of certain Rs were also a maze after the crime, and their instincts were to cast suspicion as many places as they could, see what sticks, IOW.

It’s a foreign faction.

“It's an inside job.” Suspicion flung on the Pughs. Maybe the Pughs pretending to be a foreign faction?

“I don’t think he meant to kill her, she was wrapped in a blanket.” Suspicion subtly on an underage male.

“Killer left all these funny little clues.” It was a master criminal who could leave such inexplicable clues like the chair placement. According to JR, this master criminal tied complicated knots.

There are so many more inconsistencies which have been brought up over the years that I’ve developed my own theory of how these statements came to be. Primary inspiration was from two sources – Mindhunter by JD and Through the Looking Glass by Lewis J. Carroll.

All MHO
 
The more I read the more it seems like this was a horrible accident that was frantically covered up (not coordinated very well) by throwing everything at it to make it look like an intruder.
Horrible? Yes. Accident? No way.

noneareworthy said:
Too many little stupid things. Here's another: though they are getting home late and are leaving super early in the morning and still need to finish packing, they read and sing to a sleeping child.
Sang to a sleeping child? Haven't heard this before... John Ramsey's testimony is that he read a book, in his bed, to himself, before falling asleep.
 
this backs up what ST wrote, pg. 20: the police found no open doors or windows, nothing to indicate a break-in...

http://books.google.ca/books?id=pC3k1vnwLhEC&q=fleet+white#v=snippet&q=fleet%20white&f=false


and unless we actually see FW's depo for ourselves, i think that point is moot. there are so many mistakes in that decision*, it's ridiculous!

*questfortrue linked the thread about this earlier
I have seen the depo, but I think we’re not supposed to talk about it and that’s why I use Carnes as the source.
...

AK
 
AK, I can see why you go with the statement in the depositon. It's FW's own words under oath. I'm going to stay with with Schiller's information, though. He saw police files and interviews from the period immediately after the murder, which would include FW's freshest recollections of what he saw. When Schiller says FW said the window was closed, I have to assume his assertion is based on a statement in FW's own words recorded in the police file. The deposition was taken in August 2002, at which time FW said he did not remember whether the window was open or closed. I believe he was truthful and no longer remembered what had been clear in his mind over five and a half years earlier.

I’m not really choosing what White said in his depo over what he is reported to have said in other sources, I’m just showing that there is a discrepancy in accounts.

I don’t know how much or what specific information Schiller got from official police reports but I know that a lot of his information came from interviews and actual conversations and such so I don’t agree that we must assume that Schiller’s description of White finding the window closed (but, unlatched) is “based on a statement in FW's own words recorded in the police file.”

This very same passage in PMPT has White picking up a piece of glass and putting it on the window ledge. This would have been physically impossible unless the window was actually open – not just ajar, but open – at the time. You can see what I mean in the dailybeast video: http://tinyurl.com/8x5cp5a

IMO, Schiller was wrong about where White put that piece of glass. I think the piece of glass Schiller refers to was actually placed on the suitcase. SO, was Schiller also wrong about White finding the window closed, or could it have been ajar, even if only slightly? I don’t know.
...

AK
 
Pmpt: according to a police report, he carried Jon Benet, who was still asleep, upstairs to her room, where he took her shoes off and read to her. Patsy undressed her, remembered singing a bedtime song to her while she slept, and kissed her goodnight.

If you're having to finish packing and be up early, no way would you read a story and sing to a sleeping child. You might wake her up.
 
I’m not really choosing what White said in his depo over what he is reported to have said in other sources, I’m just showing that there is a discrepancy in accounts.

I don’t know how much or what specific information Schiller got from official police reports but I know that a lot of his information came from interviews and actual conversations and such so I don’t agree that we must assume that Schiller’s description of White finding the window closed (but, unlatched) is “based on a statement in FW's own words recorded in the police file.”

This very same passage in PMPT has White picking up a piece of glass and putting it on the window ledge. This would have been physically impossible unless the window was actually open – not just ajar, but open – at the time. You can see what I mean in the dailybeast video: http://tinyurl.com/8x5cp5a

IMO, Schiller was wrong about where White put that piece of glass. I think the piece of glass Schiller refers to was actually placed on the suitcase. SO, was Schiller also wrong about White finding the window closed, or could it have been ajar, even if only slightly? I don’t know.
...

AK

Thanks. If Schiller got this piece of information directly from FW, so much the better. qft's interim post supports the idea that he took FW's window statements from the police files. But, Schiller may have erred here as he did on some other details. FW may not have remembered clearly. And DeDee's post shows us ST saying FW opened the window. There's so much we don't know...and, at this point, can't know. :sheesh:

Will you excuse me a moment? [steps away,hollers out back door, Oh bloody hell!! :tantrum:]

........

Okay. So.....with multiple sources in disagreement about the window open/closed, it's silly to say let's agree to disagree. How about let's keep standing in the not knowing together?
 
Yeah, unfortunately half of this is stuff we have to agree we don't know the answer to. I would not trust information from any book over a deposition - not saying it's not true, but it's very easy for things to get a bit inaccurate where there could be different sources or interpretations, and we only have the author's (which is usually edited or ghostwritten). People can obviously lie in depositions, or forget things, but at least you know exactly what was said in them straight from the source, and you know what question it was in response to.
 
Yeah, unfortunately half of this is stuff we have to agree we don't know the answer to. I would not trust information from any book over a deposition - not saying it's not true, but it's very easy for things to get a bit inaccurate where there could be different sources or interpretations, and we only have the author's (which is usually edited or ghostwritten). People can obviously lie in depositions, or forget things, but at least you know exactly what was said in them straight from the source, and you know what question it was in response to.

One of the important reasons for there being depositions in criminal cases is for impeachment purposes. If a witness changes their testimony at trial from their deposition it can be brought up that their story has changed.

That makes depositions totally different from someones writings in a book. There can be a lot of reasons why a writer will interpret/slant things in a way that you just won't see in a deposition. And a writer isn't being questioned by anyone, their putting down on paper what they want to be in their book.

Books vs depositions? Two different animals IMO.
 
If a boiler is meant to warm a home in winter, why does it matter if a basement they don't spend much time in gets hot? Shouldn't the intent be to warm the home. A warm basement warms a home because heat rises, no? JMO
 
Pmpt: according to a police report, he carried Jon Benet, who was still asleep, upstairs to her room, where he took her shoes off and read to her. Patsy undressed her, remembered singing a bedtime song to her while she slept, and kissed her goodnight.

If you're having to finish packing and be up early, no way would you read a story and sing to a sleeping child. You might wake her up.

I don't know many parents who, after a long day and an early morning ahead, would read to and sing to a sleeping child. JMVHO
 
Pmpt: according to a police report, he carried Jon Benet, who was still asleep, upstairs to her room, where he took her shoes off and read to her. Patsy undressed her, remembered singing a bedtime song to her while she slept, and kissed her goodnight.

If you're having to finish packing and be up early, no way would you read a story and sing to a sleeping child. You might wake her up.

I have. It is more likely that she stirred from being undressed and redressed and so she was reading to her to get her back to sleep and singing.
This is normal parent behavior.
I have sung to my sleeping children many times.
 
Also thinking if you're worried about your child being beheaded if you call the police you'd want yo keep things on the down low--not call a bunch of people to come over.
 

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