Rebecca Zahau Wrongful death trial begins. Trial coverage and discussion #3

[stmarysmead]

Yes, it is not in keeping with everything else we saw from Rebecca that *even if* she received such a message from Jonah (seems unlikely) that she would not have called her sister, tried to talk to Jonah or something. We're to believe she suddenly turned suicidal, when an hour before she was coping fine, & came up with this whole bizarre scheme and carried it out within two hours. And, she never sought to speak with anyone, she never wrote a note to explain herself, and it was so important this sudden need to die, she had to bind herself to prevent herself from changing her mind -- when this whole thing was a quick change of mind from her earlier coping.

In fact, the detectives who came upon the scene saw it as a homicide, as would anybody. Suicide would not have even crossed the mind of anyone coming upon a scene like this -- except AS and JS. And, interestingly enough, after some very powerful people showed up on their behalf... LE abandoned the reasonable conclusion and came to the very conclusion that only these (powerful and rich) POIs wanted. Hmmm...

To even suggest suicide in a case like this, much less try to claim the evidence supports it, is flat out ludicrous. MOO

Once again, it’s all down to whom we choose to believe. Her sister says she was fine. Her sister has an emotional and financial interest in this being declared a murder.

You know, RZ was not as pure as the driven snow. No one disputes that she had numerous sexual affairs and was an adulterer. That does not mean she wasn’t a loving daughter and sister. She certainly was. Humans are not caricatures of perfection or evil.

I’m guessing once again this goes back to the ancient history of this case discussion wherein insults and hurtful comments hardened the “teams” here. That’s a shame because it does impede discussion.

I believe there was also a book in RZ study on bondage. Her computer had Asian *advertiser censored* on it. Adam masturbated to *advertiser censored*.

Immediately, anything about RZ has to be explained away to maintain this image of earthly perfection. She did not steal...she...forgot. if she had affairs, it was her husband’s fault. If she could not get along with the daughter, it was the daughters fault. All information flowing from the Z family or Greer is absolute TRUTH. Anything coming from the other side is incompetence, evil, the result of being “bought off”....there’s no balance in the flow of discussion at all.

Treat RZ like the real woman she was...and your positions become more believable. Elevate her to goddess level...with all evil all the time on the other side...and even your best points become undermined by the lack of objectivity.

 

[Lilibet]

I thought the same thing. Though somewhat more convenient, doesn't seem like he would/should need it. I would actually have said that hopefully it has plenty of space, so that's why he used it BUT actually, that first night, they said it was full & recommended a hotel... again weird. Dina seems to have been able to get back and forth to Coronado. Rebecca was taxiing everyone around, so clearly would have come to drive him if exhaustion was the problem. I also don't remember exactly the testimony about him going home to shower & get clothes that evening, but did he go back and spend significant time at Max's side before going to a hotel? If not, why not just stay in Coronado to rest at that point? Anyway, I'll need to relook at the testimony in this respect...just wondering outloud. MOO

I’m willing to cut JS some slack on this. Under these circumstances I would want to stay as close to my child as possible (across the street), even if I lived 10 miles away. If space was offered to me at RMcD House, I’d take it, even if I just used it for catnaps and a place to freshen up. I can’t speak to why Dina went home to Coronado. Perhaps it was agreed that JS would stay close by, because someone needed to be on the San Diego side of the bridge. I think there are many more important issues and questions about JS and all, so this one isn’t that important to me, under these tragic circumstances.
JMO

 

[Verboten]

So this was apparently a 2 min voicemail that JS claims to have left updating about Max’s condition getting worse. A 2 min voicemail is a long voicemail. NR texted RZ with no response and then stopped by the house, no answer to door. Went to the side gate, but didn’t go through the gate but tried to look to the backyard. Why? Maybe she heard something, perhaps she could’ve seen RZ in the vicinity of or in the guest house with AS..... I know she said that she didn’t see anything. I really never believed her responsible for anything. But my theory, and this is just my opinion is that when NR got no response from Rebecca that she then called JS to inform him that he couldn’t get in touch with her etc. maybe even saying “listen I saw her in the back with AS so I know she is up”. And that so JS then called Rebecca and left a voicemail saying “listen NR and DR are getting on my case, I know they have tried contacting you, they are pissed, just want to make sure your ok and don’t respond to NR cause I can’t deal with this drama”. NR stopped by the house around 10:40, I don’t think it’s a coincidence that his voicemail was about an hour later. In my opinion, I think that JS might have lied about the voicemail as to not incriminate both NR and AS. Would look bad that NR was at the house that night. (And I really don’t think that NR has involvement with hurting RZ). And it looks bad that his brother was the only one at the house. I think the voicemail was a long voicemail.

I am not at all sure I agree with all of this. I have mixed feelings about NR being there, doubt she saw RZ with Adam, doubt RZ wanted to connect with Adam at any point that night, etc. but I do believe it's likely JS lied about the voicemail. I don't know if phone records even substantiated him having called her at that time. Anyone could have left a voicemail saying anything and I believe JS said whatever he had to in order to help the case for suicide, since suicide is the finding he wanted. I don't really have a theory as to which of the few people who might have called, actually did call, or what they might have said. But, whatever that voicemail said did not help the suicide case, at minimum, or it directly implicated someone, at worst. That's why it disappeared, imo. MOO

 

[stmarysmead]

I am not at all sure I agree with a lot of what's theorized here (mixed feelings about NR being there, doubt she saw RZ with Adam, doubt RZ wanted to connect with Adam at any point that night, etc) but I do believe it's likely JS lied about the voicemail. I don't know if phone records even substantiated him having called her at that time. Anyone could have left a voicemail saying anything and I believe JS said whatever he had to in order to help the case for suicide, since suicide is the finding he wanted. I don't really have a theory as to which of the few people who might have called, actually did call, or what they might have said. But, whatever that voicemail said did not help the suicide case, at minimum, or it directly implicated someone, at worst. That's why it disappeared, imo. MOO

If JS was going to lie, why didn’t he say he told her that they were through and to plan to move out? Or that he said something like...our relationship is hopeless...I’m even dating someone else.

Why did he deny on the stand saying anything that he thought would make her suicidal? Just that he relayed the dire prognosis and cried.

 

[Verboten]

I’m willing to cut JS some slack on this. Under these circumstances I would want to stay as close to my child as possible (across the street), even if I lived 10 miles away. If space was offered to me at RMcD House, I’d take it, even if I just used it for catnaps and a place to freshen up. I can’t speak to why Dina went home to Coronado. Perhaps it was agreed that JS would stay close by, because someone needed to be on the San Diego side of the bridge. I think there are many more important issues and questions about JS and all, so this one isn’t that important to me, under these tragic circumstances.
JMO

Fair enough.

 

[Lilibet]

I know this is an extremely emotional case for those who have invested so much time and effort into it. I would never want to offend any of you who are emotionally vested in this case. I understand it fully. I have been the same way with many cases I kept up with on a daily basis. But others like myself, have not kept up with every detail of this case so hopefully I wont offend anyone if I asked some questions please so I can understand more fully if answered.

If you prefer not to answer then I understand that too. I am just an outsider looking in concerning this particular case.

2. Why do you think AS made Rebecca's death look more like a homicide rather than a suicide if his plan was to make it look like a suicide?

2) Why would he do all the complicated rope binding when he could have done so without all of that except making sure she was gagged so she couldn't scream since even though fit she would be no match for his size, and strength. Why do you think he didn't put the rope around her neck only and throw her off the balcony when the results would have been the same?

3) How would AS know where the forensic expert would test on the rope? (Although in every case LE/forensic expert does not test every surface of evidence even on the clothing of the victim and only select areas they think are pertinent areas)

4) How would he be able to erase all evidence of his DNA but leave Rebecca's only? If he told LE he did touch the rope and knife to cut her down then why would he want to remove his DNA when it would support what he already told LE?

5) If no prints of anyone else was found in the home hadn't Rebecca's sister just been in the home shortly before this happened when Max was fatally injured? Did the police find fingerprints belonging to Maxie, JS or Rebecca's sister anywhere in the entire mansion? Or did they just test crime scene areas in the bedroom and on the balcony?

6) Did the ME give a TOD and if so, was that based on stomach contents?

7) Lastly, why do you think AS made nautical knots knowing instantly many would think he was the one who had tied them?

TIA

Thank you for the kind way you’ve phrased your post, Oceanblueeyes. Even though I’ve never believed RZ committed suicide, your questions are good ones and food for thought. I won’t tackle each one, because honestly, I don’t know. I do believe that this may have started as an assault in which RZ was forced to tie the knots herself. I have wondered if the assault took place in the guest house, which would account for no DNA of AS in the crime room. I’m also not convinced that RZ was ever hanging from the balcony. If AS was wearing gloves for the whole event, that could account for lack of DNA where he “cut her down.” He may have forgotten that there needed to be DNA there. I’m not sure that AS figured out the scene out to the last detail. I do think there is enough ambiguity in the scene that it’s hard to know whether it was intended to look like suicide or murder...hence the lawsuit. I think it will be very hard for the jury to decide.

Obviously, I can’t prove what I believe, but I have always believed that it defies credulity that RZ took her own life in such a bizarre and demeaning way, with so much detail involved, and in such haste. That her body was left exposed to view was so insulting and disrespectful that it adds to my suspicion that things are not what they seem. I will await the verdict.
JMO

Once again, it’s all down to whom we choose to believe. Her sister says she was fine. Her sister has an emotional and financial interest in this being declared a murder.

You know, RZ was not as pure as the driven snow. No one disputes that she had numerous sexual affairs and was an adulterer. That does not mean she wasn’t a loving daughter and sister. She certainly was. Humans are not caricatures of perfection or evil.

I’m guessing once again this goes back to the ancient history of this case discussion wherein insults and hurtful comments hardened the “teams” here. That’s a shame because it does impede discussion.

I believe there was also a book in RZ study on bondage. Her computer had Asian *advertiser censored* on it. Adam masturbated to *advertiser censored*.

Immediately, anything about RZ has to be explained away to maintain this image of earthly perfection. She did not steal...she...forgot. if she had affairs, it was her husband’s fault. If she could not get along with the daughter, it was the daughters fault. All information flowing from the Z family or Greer is absolute TRUTH. Anything coming from the other side is incompetence, evil, the result of being “bought off”....there’s no balance in the flow of discussion at all.

Treat RZ like the real woman she was...and your positions become more believable. Elevate her to goddess level...with all evil all the time on the other side...and even your best points become undermined by the lack of objectivity.

I’ve never been on a “team” on these threads. When I popped in from time to time, what I saw was one particular member (now former) and a few others attacking RZ and others defending her. The vitriolic and unnecessary attacks on an imperfect dead woman were what created the team. And they continue, and are in no way relevant to whether or not she committed suicide. As I stated above in my response to oceanblueeyes, suicide defies credulity IMO. But there has always been a vested interest in this being suicide, with more motive than RZ’s sister saying it wasn’t.
JMO

 

[coastal]

If JS was going to lie, why didn’t he say he told her that they were through and to plan to move out? Or that he said something like...our relationship is hopeless...I’m even dating someone else.

Why did he deny on the stand saying anything that he thought would make her suicidal? Just that he relayed the dire prognosis and cried.

When asked if he said anything on the voicemail that would make Rebecca suicidal, Jonah's testimony on the stand was that the message he left her was "pretty rough". He said this with a shake of his head and a small, sad smile.

In other words, his denial was denied by his body language.

 

[stmarysmead]

Thank you for the kind way you’ve phrased your post, Oceanblueeyes. Even though I’ve never believed RZ committed suicide, your questions are good ones and food for thought. I won’t tackle each one, because honestly, I don’t know. I do believe that this may have started as an assault in which RZ was forced to tie the knots herself. I have wondered if the assault took place in the guest house, which would account for no DNA of AS in the crime room. I’m also not convinced that RZ was ever hanging from the balcony. If AS was wearing gloves for the whole event, that could account for lack of DNA where he “cut her down.” He may have forgotten that there needed to be DNA there. I’m not sure that AS figured out the scene out to the last detail. I do think there is enough ambiguity in the scene that it’s hard to know whether it was intended to look like suicide or murder...hence the lawsuit. I think it will be very hard for the jury to decide.

Obviously, I can’t prove what I believe, but I have always believed that it defies credulity that RZ took her own life in such a bizarre and demeaning way, with so much detail involved, and in such haste. That her body was left exposed to view was so insulting and disrespectful that it adds to my suspicion that things are not what they seem. I will await the verdict.
JMO



I’ve never been on a “team” on these threads. When I popped in from time to time, what I saw was one particular member (now former) and a few others attacking RZ and others defending her. The vitriolic and unnecessary attacks on an imperfect dead woman were what created the team. And they continue, and are in no way relevant to whether or not she committed suicide. As I stated above in my response to oceanblueeyes, suicide defies credulity IMO. But there has always been a vested interest in this being suicide, with more motive than RZ’s sister saying it wasn’t.
JMO

I know no perfect people. I have no vested interest in how this case turns out. I have no money to make, feel no loyalty or hatred or affection. I’m just giving my opinion on a case that is in the news at the moment.

After the verdict is read, I’ll find another case-that interests me. If there’s an appeal, I’ll stop by to see what’s new.

Early in the case, I recall the venom toward a grieving mother and the seeming disregard to how her child died. Hate was NOT one sided here, not in any way. Both sides were pretty off-putting.

I have read no comments lately that are “vitriolic” or unnecessary. Just differences of opinion on the evidence in the case.

 

[stmarysmead]

When asked if he said anything on the voicemail that would make Rebecca suicidal, Jonah's testimony on the stand was that the message he left her was "pretty rough". He said this with a shake of his head and a small, sad smile.

In other words, his denial was denied by his body language.

But, in fairness, if he’s a liar, he could have done much more than that for his brother. I honestly don’t think he helped much at all.

 

[Seattle1]

Does voicemail etiquette apply to family in crisis?

In business practice, outside of emergency, there's an unwritten rule to wait at least a day before calling again and/or following up an unanswered voicemail. IMO, partners, immediate family, do not hesitate to make a 2nd, or 3rd calls to each other whether voicemail returned or not! And Family's in crisis don't sleep soundly...

Assuming it's true that JS left a midnight, crying voicemail for RZ asking her to call him back, it's never sat right with me that after still not hearing from RZ by 7am , JS never attempted to call RZ again. According to Mary's testimony, hours before her death, RZ was planning to take fresh clothes to JS first thing in the morning. It's reasonable to believe they made this arrangement when RZ dropped JS off at Hospital campus after dinner. It's also reasonable to believe where an hour later, more composed, JS would call RZ again to learn she was in the shower earlier, and just about to call him back; or calling or texting each other at 5-6AM where JS is getting up and RZ on her way with his clothes by the time he get's out of shower. I wish Mr. Greer would have asked JS about the silence. No follow-up calls or texts and I don't think etiquette had anything to do with it!

 

[Lilibet]

I know no perfect people. I have no vested interest in how this case turns out. I have no money to make, feel no loyalty or hatred or affection. I’m just giving my opinion on a case that is in the news at the moment.

After the verdict is read, I’ll find another case-that interests me. If there’s an appeal, I’ll stop by to see what’s new.

Early in the case, I recall the venom toward a grieving mother and the seeming disregard to how her child died. Hate was NOT one sided here, not in any way. Both sides were pretty off-putting.

I have read no comments lately that are “vitriolic” or unnecessary. Just differences of opinion on the evidence in the case.

BBM

We will have to agree to disagree on the tone and necessity of some comments. It’s just a bit more subtle than it was on earlier threads IMO. And yes, there were some ugly comments coming from both sides, which is why I only stopped by occasionally.

Tricia has asked that any posts on old threads that violate TOS be reported so they can be removed.

 

[Lolliknows]

I agree with you on this, Mybelle. Unfortunately of the two deceased, it's only Rebecca's family that has not accepted what I consider to be severely botched investigations. It's unfortunate to the point of being hard to comprehend, IMO.

It is my understanding and personal knowledge that Dina Shacknai was very much of the opinion the investigation of her son Max’s death was severely botched as well, so much so she spent thousands of dollars hiring her own investigation, to disprove the SDSO explanation that Max fell over the stairway railing from flying over playing on his scooter. So if DS thinks there is foul play with respect to how her son died, and I’m sure JS got an earful of that while sitting by his son’s bedside while he fought for his life, don’t you think there would be motive to punish the one person that was taking care of him when he fell?

 

[usernamhere]

Thank you for the kind way you’ve phrased your post, Oceanblueeyes. Even though I’ve never believed RZ committed suicide, your questions are good ones and food for thought. I won’t tackle each one, because honestly, I don’t know. I do believe that this may have started as an assault in which RZ was forced to tie the knots herself. I have wondered if the assault took place in the guest house, which would account for no DNA of AS in the crime room. I’m also not convinced that RZ was ever hanging from the balcony. If AS was wearing gloves for the whole event, that could account for lack of DNA where he “cut her down.”

If the rope was taught then one could actually cut the rope without having to grab it and that could explain why there was no DNA.

 

[Lolliknows]

On the subject of Max’s accident not being more thoroughly investigated, it is my belief that after Rebecca was murdered a further investigation into Max would have only too clearly provided a motive for Rebecca’s murder so it was not pursued by law enforcement at the behest of the murdering parties influence. After all, her demise had been arranged and that was good enough and then counter productive to press forward on the death of Max.

Same reasoning for having her bake under the sun under prying eyes as to them she deserved that and more. The simplicity of it all is so obvious but hasn’t been that clear due to the many games played by the murdering parties (reputation management and publicists) and their co-conspirators (maybe too strong a word) which they proved even today they didn’t have the guts to stand by their pronouncement of suicide.

All my opinion of course.

Exactly Justice To Be Served. And isn’t it interesting that only DS seemed so distraught over the cause of her son’s death, even doing her own private expensive investigation trying to show Max’s death was not an accident. JS IMO may have got his justice served behind the scenes, satisfying his rage in his own way. JMO but not inconceivable.

 

[MyBelle]

That's similar to experts who testify about autopsies and suicide risks of a person they, too, had never seen or heard from. Never saw the autopsy, never talked to RZ. Those expert opinions were based on very little.

Unfortunately, most trials involving a death are filled with analysis and expert opinions based on after-the-fact investigations. Car accidents are recreated and analyzed. An expert opinion is also based on education, training and experience. I wasn't aware of RZ's traumatic life history, her instability in her marriage and resulting affairs or her unhappiness and loneliness from her current living arrangement. All of these factors must be considered by the jury as to her states of mind after Max's injuries which happened while she was supposed to be supervising. I do believe "experts" who do such analysis and risk assessments are equipped to arrive at a diagnosis and level of probability.

 

[stmarysmead]

It is my understanding and personal knowledge that Dina Shacknai was very much of the opinion the investigation of her son Max’s death was severely botched as well, so much so she spent thousands of dollars hiring her own investigation, to disprove the SDSO explanation that Max fell over the stairway railing from flying over playing on his scooter. So if DS thinks there is foul play with respect to how her son died, and I’m sure JS got an earful of that while sitting by his son’s bedside while he fought for his life, don’t you think there would be motive to punish the one person that was taking care of him when he fell?

Dina has been apologized to by Greer and cleared. She is not a suspect, a murderer, or a mastermind.

 

[MyBelle]

Exactly. Also Rebecca's phone records showed that she tried to call Jonah earlier but they were very short calls so they probably went to VM. I've always wondered why Rebecca didn't pick up when Jonah called that night.

It's VERY weird to me that Jonah would leave a message with bad news about Max (and saying they were over?) on a VOICEMAIL at midnight-- in fact I don't believe that's what happened...... but even if he did leave a "bad" message, why wouldn't Rebecca call back? Get some clarification? Tell Jonah she was sorry about Max? Anything!!

But instead we are to believe she INSTANTLY got bizarrely suicidal and wanted to hurt the family even more?

This is so ludicrous it shocks me anyone buys the suicide story.

Also that message - Can HE save her? It's directed to Jonah. IMO it's a ruse. I'd say why but it's against the TOS of this board.

It's my opinion that someone in this case has gotten away with a murder for hire. They wanted her killed, degraded and thrown over a balcony just like Max went over a balcony. Grief filled rage and hate.

I don't believe RZ's thoughts of suicide were instantaneous. I do believe her actions over several days are an indication that is where she was headed after Max's fall. She immediately sent her sister home. She took the dog to the kennel. Whatever Jonah's message said, I think that was the final straw. I also don't find it unusual he would choose to leave a voice message. Many people chose to not directly confront their partner and instead communicate via text or email.

 

[MyBelle]

I find it odd that a billionaire took up space at the RMcD house. That is for people who live out of town and can't afford a hotel. Jonah's mansion was 15 mins away. It's not like he was keeping 24 hour bedside vigil. He was coming and going, including going out to dinner at a local restaurant.

Ronald McDonald Houses are for any parent who wants to remain as close as possible to a gravely ill child. Max's parents were keeping bedside vigils. It isn't fair to criticize Jonah for wanting to stay close, imo.

 

[Lolliknows]

Who else was in the house using her computer? JS was at a motel. Her sister had left. AS had t arrived. She was having trouble sleeping.

I just don’t think we should shame AS if at any point in time, RZ also watched *advertiser censored* on her computer. Matter of fairness.

Farther up on this thread is the link that Gore said the *advertiser censored* Asian *advertiser censored* on the computer was viewed the morning of the incident while AS was indeed there. The confusion was about cookies on the computer and something to do w updates.

 

[Lolliknows]

Can you give me the source for the info that Jonah stayed at a hotel the night before AS arrived?

It’son the video of JS that’s broken down into 2 parts where Greer is questioning him.