Shannan Gilbert's 23 Minute 911 Call #2

[CNYDarkStar]

Coming into this fairly blind (I knew almost nothing about LISK etc until the arrest), and have listened to most of the 911 call via a couple of podcasts. So, with that in mind, she sounds like someone who has been kicked into a paranoid crisis, I suppose by drugs (acid? might be showing my age here, but that sure sounded like a bad trip), if she didn’t already have a history of similar issues. It’s her repetition of the same phrases over and over, and the fact that the people in the background sound more exasperated than menacing. It’s hard to listen to, not least because I suspect that if the driver or the customer had just sucked it up and called 911, they could have gotten her medical help and hopefully a big dose of tranquilizer. But I guess they didn’t want to deal with the cops.

I don’t think I have an opinion on whether she met with foul play, mostly because of the lack of agreement on cause of death. I don’t put a lot of value in the stuff saying there were no drugs in her system, because I don’t see how they could determine that so many months later, and with so many designer drugs already available by then.

But the short version is, *during the time of the 911 call*, I think any threat only existed in her mind. It’s extremely sad that no one was able to get her the help that she needed before she succumbed to whatever the real threat was (be it a predator or the environment).

This is a good/better summation of what I was saying. I can completely understand how this unfolded. And yes, the two guys involved are jerks but definitely wanted out of that situation, not in a worse one.

 

[CNYDarkStar]

Brewer wanted her out? No. If he wanted her out, he'd say, "get out now, or I'm calling the police." He wouldn't be laughing and coaxing and smooth talking. Also, he knew she was on the phone with police. He could have identified himself and given his address. If he was worried about her medically, he could have given his address and specified to bring an ambulance.

Her back and forth were not changes in mood. She was terrified, but had the presence of mind to speak as clearly and calmly as possible to 911. She was under the impression she could be located by calling. She was speaking professionally, while reporting that she was about to be murdered, because she knew that just screaming would not effectively help 911 locate her. When someone touched her or approached her...or whatever happened before her blood-curdling scream...the was no longer "calm" as you put it. But she was obviously able to speak professionally much of the call. She was not out of control or irrational.

Cocaine was one of the few substances looked for in her autopsy. It was not found.

Pak explicitly stated he didn't want police around-he said because of his gun. I don't believe the reason, but I do believe he managed to get TF out of there before the police arrived. Why did he stick around to smooth talk her while she was on the phone, and to drive after her as witnessed by Coletti? He could have just left at any time with his gun. Instead, he had something he apparently had to do with Shannan.

It is absurd to say it was concern or responsibility as her driver. He could have also called for help for her, too, while taking his gun home. Or, he could have insisted on a search warrant before allowing police to rifle through his car...which they would not be interested in doing anyway if he was calling for help.

I don't know how Shannan fits with GB4, RH, or Suffolk corruption. But of this I'm certain. She called 911 because she was in grave danger. And for whatever reason, Brewer and Pak worked towards keeping her in danger. They not only did not call for help for her, they did not act rationally in their own claimed interests: getting her out of the house (call the police to evict her) or not getting caught with a gun (leave without her).

MOO

I can see how some of this is true. However, what would be the purpose of them killing her? Her driver just all of the sudden decided with this guy that it would be a fun thing to do? It appears they, or at least the driver, knew she was on the phone.

 

[CNYDarkStar]

I disagree that Shannan was not behaving rationally. But it is irrelevant, to a degree. Brewer and Pak were acting very strangely. They did not act like people either trying to get rid of/away from Shannan or like people trying to get her help. They acted like people trying to gain her trust and capture her. How do you explain their weird behavior?

MOO

True. It just seems to me, judging from the audio clip only, that there would have more commotion/noise or voices if they caught up to her and strangled her.I'm not sure how far away from the last man's house she was when she went into those weeds but I would think he would have been watching and looking to see what she was doing etc.

 

[CNYDarkStar]

Did you ever ask yourself, why was anyone chasing her? So why didn't Brewer just call the police or an ambulance and get her out of HIS house? Why did Pak follow her in the car when he said he didn't want to see the police?

Also, Shannan was very coherent on the 911 call. She tried to conceal from Brewer and Pak that she was on the phone. She told 911 she didn't know where she was, and asked them to locate her. The only thing that was counterintuitive was her calling police when she had serious charges pending. She was trying to save her own life.

MOO

Yes, I have. And what is audible is two guys trying to figure out the best/calmest way to get her out of there. Either she freaked on her own or the client drugged her and things went sideways. She wasn't displaying anything that seemed obvious medical-wise. So there would be no need to call for help. The driver had reason to be leery of the police and he's been in the business long enough to know these things happen. The client was obviously embarrassed to be caught up in something like that or worse, drugs, whatever and wanted to wash his hands of it. Sad but simple. Neither one of them would have known, or even cared, she would run off and die.

 

[CNYDarkStar]

Umm, because they knew she was on the phone, they didn't overpower her. Except something happened when she screamed then bolted.

Why wouldn't Brewer call the police? He could say she was his guest, but she's overstayed her welcome and won't leave. Unlike Shannan, with serious charges pending, Brewer had nothing to fear of the police. They wouldn't be able to prove he's a John. Shannan would have to admit to selling sex to accuse him of buying it.

See how his story does not make sense? It was his house. He should have just told the police his address and told them to get her out, if that's what he wanted. He had every right. Why would he not want the police? According to his and Pak's stories, he just met her and Pak that night. Why would he be invested in keeping them safe from LE, especially after SHE dialed, and he was the homeowner with the right to kick her out?

MOO

Is there some proven relation between the driver, the client and the pimp.?

 

[CNYDarkStar]

Yes, I do. Her presence there, her accusations were a major threat to some influential citizens of that community . JMO. They didn’t want scandal.

So they just killed prostitutes when they were done with them.?

 

[ArianeEmory]

Re: drugs in her system …

Autopsy: No drugs in body of Shannan Gilbert, found dead on Gilgo Beach

Autopsy results obtained by Eyewitness News reveal that Shannan Gilbert, the prostitute who missing for 18 months before her body was found at Gilgo Beach on Long Island, did not have drugs in her system.

abc7ny.com

Dr. Kobilinski, though, says the tests actually prove nothing, since Gilbert's body withstood harsh elements for more than a year and a half.

"She was a known cocaine user," he said. "And the fact that we find no evidence of cocaine again suggests that this tissue is highly compromised."

This article is fairly old. If anyone has newer (scientific) info about what drugs can be effectively detected in a decomposed body, I’d be interested.

 

[Ruminations]

I can see how some of this is true. However, what would be the purpose of them killing her? Her driver just all of the sudden decided with this guy that it would be a fun thing to do? It appears they, or at least the driver, knew she was on the phone.

I don't know if they did kill her.

Pak arranged the date with Brewer way out in Suffolk for unknown reasons.

The two of them were trying to detain Shannan rather than evict her/abandon her for unknown reasons.

Shannan said she was set up by Pak; she did not know where she was.

She said "they" are trying to kill her, but did not specify anybody, except Pak in setting her up, which isn't exactly the same thing.

I suppose it's possible that she coincidentally died while others were trying to hurt her. But I cannot look at known information and conclude she was not in danger that morning. Nor can I can I explain Brewer's or Pak's behavior. They are the ones acting irrationally, given their claimed goals of the moment.

But I don't know what Pak or Brewer's roles were, or how much they understood the big picture of what was happening to Shannan.

MOO

 

[Warwick7]

I can see how some of this is true. However, what would be the purpose of them killing her? Her driver just all of the sudden decided with this guy that it would be a fun thing to do? It appears they, or at least the driver, knew she was on the phone.

IMO there was an extended reason for killing her.
@Girlinterrupted has made it clear why someone wanted her dead.

Shannan Gilbert was in Manhattan on the night of Friday, April 30, 2010.
Joseph Brewer was 2 hours away in Oak Beach.

To drive from midtown manhattan to Oak Beach is 2 hours. To drive back from Oak Beach to Manhattan is 2 hours. 4 hours total travel time.
Plus Pak's cut.
IF they're working independently - which only Pak claims.

Shannan Gilbert got a call at 11pm on a Friday night from a man she'd never met before asking her to invest 4 hours of travel time into an outcall?

Joseph Brewer is lonely on a Friday night and instead of choosing from the 100s of outcall ads listed on multiple online platforms all within a 30 minute radius from him, he decides on Shannan, a girl he'd never met who is 2 hours away from him in Manhattan?

It simply does not make sense.
Shannan and Pak had been to Suffolk County before.
They had been to Oak Beach before.
This was not Brewer's first interaction with Shannan or Pak.

But Shannan was not there just to deliver sex.
Shannan and Pak were still working for Joseph Ruis.

Shannan Gilbert had been arrested in 2007/2008 in NJ while working as an escort for one of Ruis' services.
Michael Pak also worked for this man.
Alex Diaz also worked for this man.

Ruis was not running a simple escort service.
Hudson County PO investigated him for a year, starting in 2008, before obtaining a warrant to raid his multiple businesses and homes.
On June 30, 2009, the HCPO arrested and charged Joseph Ruis with first-degree money laundering,
N.J.S.A. 2C:21-25;
third-degree promoting prostitution, N.J.S.A. 2C:34-1b(2);
third-degree conspiracy to promote prostitution and distribute cocaine, N.J.S.A. 2C:5-2, N.J.S.A. 2C:34-1b(2), N.J.S.A. 2C:35-5a(1), and N.J.S.A. 2C:35-5b(1);
and first-degree leading a narcotics trafficking network, N.J.S.A. 2C:35-3.

Shannan Gilbert was his co-defendent.

2007/2008
Gilbert arrested while working for Ruis.

2008
Hudson County Prosecutors Office begins investigation into Ruis.

2009
Ruis is arrested and makes cash bail.

2010
April: Trial is set for June, Ruis arraigned. Free till trial.

May: Shannan, listed as co-defendant, goes to OB and is never found alive.

June: Ruis pleads down and is out in 2 years.

Go back to 2007/2008 when Shannan was arrested in the prostitution sting working for Joseph Ruis in NJ.

It's at that time that Hudson County PO is beginning a large investigation into Ruis.
Shannan is listed as his codefendent.

Read the charges again.

Ruis was not running a simple escort service.
He was running 3 prostitution rings, limo services and other shell businesses.

Escorts and drivers - these are his employees.
Sex and cocaine - these are his goods and services.

Shannan Gilbert: employed as an escort by Ruis.
Pak and Diaz: employed as drivers by Ruis.
This is literally how the three met.

The third official charge against Ruis as stated by HCPO is conspiracy to promote prostitution and distribute cocaine. This charge is separate from his second charge of promoting prostitution.
The last official charge as stated by HCPO is leading a narcotics trafficking network in the first degree.

Shannan was directly involved in this case. She disappeared one month before it was scheduled.

If Shannan Gilbert was working with NJ in order to get out of the mess she was in on the case against Ruis, NJ would have her working whatever Ruis' business set up.
If that business (which was prostitution and cocaine, package deal) happened to lead to Suffolk County, to people in Suffolk County involved in law and politics, and on that particular night, to Oak Beach, then NJ is in a bad spot. Their intention was not to open a can of worms on Suffolk County. They wanted Ruis.
But Ruis led to Suffolk. And Shannan was HCPO's CI.
I used to think it was Ruis who, out on cash bail at the time, set Shannan up when she went out to OB that night.

But I think she was supplying for multiple places in Suffolk County, and Oak Beach was not a weird job - she was familiar with it.

Shannan wouldnt have had just a target on her back from just Ruis.
She would have had a target on her back from literally anyone who
she'd done business with while working for Ruis.
Anyone who had something to lose when the information came out during the trial.
Like who?
Pick any POI in OB who had any connection to someone in power in SC.
Pick any of the names that have come up in Suffolk County as participating in ethically questionable recreations. Law enforcement, judges, politicians.

If Shannan was scheduled to testify the next month at Ruis' trial and that testimony implicated Ruis OR any of Ruis' clients in Oak Beach or greater Suffolk County, and it was leaked that she was working w the prosecution, she's a walking target.

Idk if Pak or Shannan arranged the trip.
It could've been arranged through Ruis' agency.
But it wasnt the first time Shannan or Pak heard the words Oak Beack and Brewer was not some random john.

She went there like she had many times before for Ruis - to drop off cocaine, possibly provide sex.

This time, a month away from a trial that could implicate ALOT of people, someone was there to keep her from getting to the Ruis trial.

And the next month, there was no trial. Ruis lawyer's made a deal, no details of the investigation came out, and that was that.

Maybe that's why this 911 call is taking so long.
If Shannan was working for New Jersy's case against Ruis and uncovered a big problem in Suffolk County...generally speaking, LE is going to try to avoid involving an entire different county's LE in a case.

Maybe Shannan was trying to explain to a dispatcher that she was working for the NJ Prosecutors Office on a job in Oak Beach in which she was booked to deliver cocaine and sexual services as part of an immunity deal in a case against a guy in NJ for which she is listed as a co-defendant that is scheduled for a month from now and she got made and they're trying to kill me.

Maybe.

 

[Ruminations]

Re: drugs in her system …

Autopsy: No drugs in body of Shannan Gilbert, found dead on Gilgo Beach

Autopsy results obtained by Eyewitness News reveal that Shannan Gilbert, the prostitute who missing for 18 months before her body was found at Gilgo Beach on Long Island, did not have drugs in her system.

abc7ny.com

This article is fairly old. If anyone has newer (scientific) info about what drugs can be effectively detected in a decomposed body, I’d be interested.

Okay, let's go by behavior. Find me a psychiatrist or psychologist who will assert that Shannan was having a break with reality. Not, "my relative had the noids." But real symptoms.

The only thing I can think of is her calling the police when she had the most legal vulnerability. But that loses its strangeness when you consider that she realized someone she trusted brought her somewhere she had never been, had the phone numbers if her John, and was calling her her real name in front of the John. In fact, they called each other several times. Apparently she said something that pissed someone off. And this in the context of a complex conspiracy charge, where pointing to others can reduce your guilt. (I'll tell them I was lying.") she was begging for her life. She said they were killing her. Suddenly, her only irrational act, calling LE, made perfect sense.

MOO

 

[Betty P]

So they just killed prostitutes when they were done with them.?

We don't know what happened in this case, but such things have happened. It's not the kind of thing you or I would get involved in, but some scumbags do. If you've followed WS discussions long enough, it's apparent some people in this world are pretty depraved.

There are quite a few interviews out there of other SW women who have talked about some of the sex parties on LI, the people and risks involved. It's not beyond the realm of common sense to consider Shannan might have been trapped into attending some kind of party where she felt unsafe. Sex workers are human beings, like the rest of us. They should be treated as such.

Two lead investigators of the original investigation into Shannan's disappearance/murder and the Gilgo Beach murders were found guilty of criminal behavior and spent time in prison. Their investigation lasted nearly 10 yrs and yielded no arrests and a great deal of stonewalling. All of that is more than enough reason to continue investigating the death of Shannan Gilbert, regardless of who might be harmed as a result.

 

[WINDSOR]

Is there some proven relation between the driver, the client and the pimp.?

It is my understanding that the client, Brewer, made the 'date arrangement' with Pak, the driver. This can be sort of validated by the fact Shannan did not know where the Brewer residence was, but Pak did. I do not believe a pimp was directly involved, but that is only my opinion.

 

[Betty P]

Why does he need the cops there?
Hes a felon and his job is to get shannon home. Not help the cops arrest them both.

It would be great to see LE fully investigate this woman's murder, with new people in charge. IIRC, the chief of police and asst prosecutor who originally investigated this murder were later convicted of corruption in office, later serving time in prison. IIRC, one of them is still in prison.

Because of those criminal convictions, the results of their investigation is tainted.

Any ideas why it took Sussex County PD several years to release this 911 tape to the public?

 

[CNYDarkStar]

I don't know if they did kill her.

Pak arranged the date with Brewer way out in Suffolk for unknown reasons.

The two of them were trying to detain Shannan rather than evict her/abandon her for unknown reasons.

Shannan said she was set up by Pak; she did not know where she was.

She said "they" are trying to kill her, but did not specify anybody, except Pak in setting her up, which isn't exactly the same thing.

I suppose it's possible that she coincidentally died while others were trying to hurt her. But I cannot look at known information and conclude she was not in danger that morning. Nor can I can I explain Brewer's or Pak's behavior. They are the ones acting irrationally, given their claimed goals of the moment.

But I don't know what Pak or Brewer's roles were, or how much they understood the big picture of what was happening to Shannan.

MOO

I'm not saying your scenario is impossible only that I don't see it happening given the new audio clip and no further info. It just doesn't seem likely that someone caught up to her and strangled her.

 

[CNYDarkStar]

IMO there was an extended reason for killing her.
@Girlinterrupted has made it clear why someone wanted her dead.

Yes, it seems plausible and possible. I can only surmise given the "new evidence". Still, if she were aware enough to call 911 and say some of those things, why would she not say every name and every thing that was occurring? There would be no reason to withhold everything or anything you could possibly know or think of if you thought you were being killed.

 

[kittythehare]

Yes, it seems plausible and possible. I can only surmise given the "new evidence". Still, if she were aware enough to call 911 and say some of those things, why would she not say every name and every thing that was occurring? There would be no reason to withhold everything or anything you could possibly know or think of if you thought you were being killed.

She was in a state of terror for one thing. She also hoped her phone could be traced because she didn't have the address off the top of her head. That's understandable.

 

[CNYDarkStar]

It is my understanding that the client, Brewer, made the 'date arrangement' with Pak, the driver. This can be sort of validated by the fact Shannan did not know where the Brewer residence was, but Pak did. I do not believe a pimp was directly involved, but that is only my opinion.

Ok but the main theory appears to be that the supposed pimp is behind this because she was going to testify against him. So, that would have to mean they all knew each other and were all involved. If you believe she was in an intoxicated state (many do) then it wouldn't be a stretch to see how/where she got that idea in her head and freaked, which would explain some of the things she said and did.

 

[kittythehare]

We don't know what happened in this case, but such things have happened. It's not the kind of thing you or I would get involved in, but some scumbags do. If you've followed WS discussions long enough, it's apparent some people in this world are pretty depraved.

There are quite a few interviews out there of other SW women who have talked about some of the sex parties on LI, the people and risks involved. It's not beyond the realm of common sense to consider Shannan might have been trapped into attending some kind of party where she felt unsafe. Sex workers are human beings, like the rest of us. They should be treated as such.

Two lead investigators of the original investigation into Shannan's disappearance/murder and the Gilgo Beach murders were found guilty of criminal behavior and spent time in prison. Their investigation lasted nearly 10 yrs and yielded no arrests and a great deal of stonewalling. All of that is more than enough reason to continue investigating the death of Shannan Gilbert, regardless of who might be harmed as a result.

Yep.
Here's the details

The Strange Rise and Violent Fall of Long Island's Dirtiest Police Chief

Former Suffolk County Chief James Burke's recent conviction on civil rights charges opened a window into a lurid cop culture of illegal wiretapping, cover-ups, sex addiction, drunk driving, and blackmail.

www.vice.com

 

[CNYDarkStar]

It would be great to see LE fully investigate this woman's murder, with new people in charge. IIRC, the chief of police and asst prosecutor who originally investigated this murder were later convicted of corruption in office, later serving time in prison. IIRC, one of them is still in prison.

Because of those criminal convictions, the results of their investigation is tainted.

Any ideas why it took Sussex County PD several years to release this 911 tape to the public?

This is what I wonder.
I have to assume there is some "shaking of the trees" going on. Hopefully something falls off those branches.

 

[LongIsland731]

It is my understanding that the client, Brewer, made the 'date arrangement' with Pak, the driver. This can be sort of validated by the fact Shannan did not know where the Brewer residence was, but Pak did. I do not believe a pimp was directly involved, but that is only my opinion.

Shannon also paused when asked her age and never answered. If she couldn't state her age at one point what makes you think she remembers an adress she heard 6 hours earlier?