Skull fracture question

[UKGuy]

I don't know whethere or not this applies to the particular flashlight found in the house, but many flashlights have rubber exterior. I think all of ours do, for some reason. And nearly all homes have flashlights kept in, or very near to, childrens rooms to help them feel safe during a storm/power failure.
The two pony tails may not have been used TO HOLD her head together... but maybe to mask the obvious. This may have been why "whomever" might have thought Jonbenet was dead already... blood or discharge might have been coming from her nose or ears, whether or not she convulsed, then stopped and didn't respond. Someone went to help her in an "Oh My Gawd, I didn't mean to do it" moment... and saw that her head was lopsided.
Honestly, I think Patsy and John were VERY concerned about appearance to the outside world (especially Patsy). This is demonstrated in the general cleanliness of the home. The further you went into the home, the messier it got. Also, Jonbenet was always looking adorable (in some people's eyes), yet her cleanliness wasn't as important. Same goes for Patsy. As a side note, this is why I find it highly unlikely that Patsy would have worn that outfit two days in a row even if she HAD washed it! If you think about it, there are a lot of people who are like this. They want to appear to be one thing, yet inside they are totally something else. This goes with every aspect of their lives. People who find outward beauty and talent the most important thing aren't very happy people.
On top of this trait, I think that Patsy had a lot of mental health disorders. I don't think she possessed inner self control. Always concerned with her appearance, she trained herself from a young age to keep it below the surface, but just barely, because "APPEARANCE is everything".
I also think that she possessed the ability to distance herself.
I wonder how severe her many menal health disorders were and where they originated.

armywife210.

The two pony tails may not have been used TO HOLD her head together...

This I doubt since the person who struck the blow may have guessed there would be a depression at the site of her head blow, but not the extent of any fractures. Also creating the pigtails may cause further damage by pulling any hidden fractures apart.

Speculating the pigtails may be asymmetric precisely because the person adding them wanted to avoid the place on Jonbenet's skull where the blow was rendered?


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[UKGuy]

I can't say for sure about JonBenet specifically, but children usually have a more pliable or resilient bone structure. It's built-in protection to help them survive childhood. I can see where if, maybe, a heavy-duty maglite was the weapon the rubber padding could have helped prevent a laceration at the depression. Regardless, I don't think one striking blow would have made an 8.5 inch fracture and only a 1.75 x .50 depression, unless it was rubberized. Also, if someone was swinging one of those things, a lot of the energy would dissipate in various ways, some traveling back up the arm of the assailant absorbing some of the shock waves, the sutures in the skull dispersing some of the energy, and other factors. I just don't see how that fracture got there with one fell blow. A dull blow by falling on something could also do it.

BOESP,

It depends on the age of the child, patently the same force applied to a childs head, is going to cause more damage since the surface area and volume are smaller.

JonBenet's head injury and asphyxiation by garrote are extremely rare features of a child homicide, even presented in isolation individually they would be remarkable, and merit comment.


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[JMO8778]

I haven't read anything that made me think she was wearing anything on her head or that anything was placed on her head. There would be fibers from a pillow, or other padding, embedded in the wound I would think.

there weren't any open wounds,but good point,if she was covered w a pillow,the fibers should be there? perhaps this is something that's been redacted?Patsy was q'd about blood being on JB's pillow,though,and about whether or not she ever had nosebleeds,although that doesn't mean her head was covered w a pillow when she was struck.I do think she bleed out of the nose from the head injury.The q's seem to indicate that.

 

[JMO8778]

armywife210.

This I doubt since the person who struck the blow may have guessed there would be a depression at the site of her head blow, but not the extent of any fractures. Also creating the pigtails may cause further damage by pulling any hidden fractures apart.

Speculating the pigtails may be asymmetric precisely because the person adding them wanted to avoid the place on Jonbenet's skull where the blow was rendered?


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avoid,or attempt to hide it? thereby attempting to show the ligature was the cause of death?

 

[JMO8778]

I seem to recall that Dr.Cyril Wecht did some experiments using a heavy flashlight and some other items, to try to recreate the displacement fracture in JBR's skull. I think only the heavy flashlight gave the same results. I think he said the rubberized coating prevented the skin from tearing also.

Dr Spitz did too,and said the FL fit perfectly into the wound.
I have a small 6' maglite here,and when I put it up to the screen (17 inch monitor,and I have not changed the settings any),the top of it also fits perfectly into rectangular portion of her skull,although I realize it would need to be the same proportion to the size the R's had,(I don't know if it is),and the size of the pic would have to be as well,relative to the actual size of her skull.

 

[JMO8778]

I don't know whethere or not this applies to the particular flashlight found in the house, but many flashlights have rubber exterior. I think all of ours do, for some reason. And nearly all homes have flashlights kept in, or very near to, childrens rooms to help them feel safe during a storm/power failure.
The two pony tails may not have been used TO HOLD her head together... but maybe to mask the obvious. This may have been why "whomever" might have thought Jonbenet was dead already... blood or discharge might have been coming from her nose or ears, whether or not she convulsed, then stopped and didn't respond. Someone went to help her in an "Oh My Gawd, I didn't mean to do it" moment... and saw that her head was lopsided.
Honestly, I think Patsy and John were VERY concerned about appearance to the outside world (especially Patsy). This is demonstrated in the general cleanliness of the home. The further you went into the home, the messier it got. Also, Jonbenet was always looking adorable (in some people's eyes), yet her cleanliness wasn't as important. Same goes for Patsy. As a side note, this is why I find it highly unlikely that Patsy would have worn that outfit two days in a row even if she HAD washed it! If you think about it, there are a lot of people who are like this. They want to appear to be one thing, yet inside they are totally something else. This goes with every aspect of their lives. People who find outward beauty and talent the most important thing aren't very happy people.
On top of this trait, I think that Patsy had a lot of mental health disorders. I don't think she possessed inner self control. Always concerned with her appearance, she trained herself from a young age to keep it below the surface, but just barely, because "APPEARANCE is everything".
I also think that she possessed the ability to distance herself.
I wonder how severe her many menal health disorders were and where they originated.

great post

 

[JMO8778]

I've no doubt JR had a maglite,probably more than one,since he had an airplane.And he admitted going to the airport the day bf to check the plane.If he left it out on the counter when he got back,could JB have been struck with it later,as we know she was awake and had the pineapple snack in the kitchen.Perhaps she came down and wanted more,a frazzled Patsy wanted her to go to bed,she refused,and it all started there?

 

[coloradokares]

I don't know whethere or not this applies to the particular flashlight found in the house, but many flashlights have rubber exterior. I think all of ours do, for some reason. And nearly all homes have flashlights kept in, or very near to, childrens rooms to help them feel safe during a storm/power failure.
The two pony tails may not have been used TO HOLD her head together... but maybe to mask the obvious. This may have been why "whomever" might have thought Jonbenet was dead already... blood or discharge might have been coming from her nose or ears, whether or not she convulsed, then stopped and didn't respond. Someone went to help her in an "Oh My Gawd, I didn't mean to do it" moment... and saw that her head was lopsided.
Honestly, I think Patsy and John were VERY concerned about appearance to the outside world (especially Patsy). This is demonstrated in the general cleanliness of the home. The further you went into the home, the messier it got. Also, Jonbenet was always looking adorable (in some people's eyes), yet her cleanliness wasn't as important. Same goes for Patsy. As a side note, this is why I find it highly unlikely that Patsy would have worn that outfit two days in a row even if she HAD washed it! If you think about it, there are a lot of people who are like this. They want to appear to be one thing, yet inside they are totally something else. This goes with every aspect of their lives. People who find outward beauty and talent the most important thing aren't very happy people.
On top of this trait, I think that Patsy had a lot of mental health disorders. I don't think she possessed inner self control. Always concerned with her appearance, she trained herself from a young age to keep it below the surface, but just barely, because "APPEARANCE is everything".
I also think that she possessed the ability to distance herself.
I wonder how severe her many menal health disorders were and where they originated.

You are right on the money and have spelled it out nearly right on from some very knowledgable sorces here around Boulder. People who are well acquainted with the case and have interviewed those involved with the case.

 

[armywife210]

I think I forgot to add in that lengthy post that I think Patsy did have an awful temper that could come out of nowhere.
Whether Patsy did it, or John.... I don't think it was planned at all. I think it was rage, then a serious case of "what will people think?"

 

[BOESP]

This is what I was just thinking of.... think of a patch of ice. You hit it in one place, and you have the "bash" and then you have a "trail" that leads out from it, but is only a single line crack. It doesn't take the impact of the blow, but it loses it's structure because of the blow, resulting in a "tail" crack. Just thoughts.

Excellent analogy!

 

[BOESP]

Comments in red below:

BOESP,

It depends on the age of the child, patently the same force applied to a childs head, is going to cause more damage since the surface area and volume are smaller. Yes, and that is something else to consider too. Thanks for pointing that out. Good point!

JonBenet's head injury and asphyxiation by garrote are extremely rare features of a child homicide, even presented in isolation individually they would be remarkable, and merit comment.

That is why understanding the injuries are so important. If purposeful, the head wound(s) would seem to be a control mechanism. If accidental, well, it is accidental but understanding it might help determine where, how, and who was involved. Such a tiny child should be able to be controlled without such extreme effort, in my view.


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[BOESP]

<snipped for brevity> I do think she bleed out of the nose from the head injury.The q's seem to indicate that.

That is my take on the head injury too. Whoever did it, however it happened, it seems the person responsible would have seen outward signs such as convulsions, nasal bleeding, watery discharge, maybe vomiting. So, why use a strangulation device after the fact (if it truly was after the fact and, obviously, JonBenet was still alive when she received the head wound or else there would not have been bleeding)?

 

[BOESP]

You are right on the money and have spelled it out nearly right on from some very knowledgable sorces here around Boulder. People who are well acquainted with the case and have interviewed those involved with the case.

CK, I see you already answered my question here about the mental health issues. Sorry, the order of my reading posts isn't in sync.

 

[armywife210]

You are right on the money and have spelled it out nearly right on from some very knowledgable sorces here around Boulder. People who are well acquainted with the case and have interviewed those involved with the case.

I haven't read into any psychological views of Patsy because I don't KNOW the people that the information is coming from. Dr. Whomever doesn't impress me because I don't know his/her credentials, but mostly I don't know his/her integrity. Some "Doctors" like to publicly float their boat but really don't know ..... I have always been very interested in Criminal Pyschology and just Abnormal Psychology in general.......... I have taken many college classes in that field, but most of my life my nose has been found in a text book studying the psychology of people..... That doesn't mean I know any more than anyone else. It's just that I know that I can trust my own instincts. Does anyone else need to? Nope! That's not what I'm looking for.

 

[JMO8778]

That doesn't mean I know any more than anyone else. It's just that I know that I can trust my own instincts. Does anyone else need to? Nope! That's not what I'm looking for.

I kwym,I had to have a relative commited one time,I *know I was right for doing so,to this day I know I was right,even though I was admonished by several family members for it ! *They thought nothing was wrong with him ! But they didn't see what all happened ! Besides that,you have to have a darn good reason to keep someone against their will here in the state of NC,and he was giving the hospital every reason in the book ! I don't doubt my instincts about it at all,and I'm glad I didn't at the time either.They told me there was no reason they couldn't keep him,and it turns out he was dx'd with bipolar disorder,and several things about Patsy,when reading about her,lead me to believe she had some tendencies for it,even if she didn't have the full blown disorder.
There's nothing like intuition and instinct.I couldn't have learned that from any psych book.It just came from within.

 

[JMO8778]

deleted by me

 

[DeeDee249]

I think I forgot to add in that lengthy post that I think Patsy did have an awful temper that could come out of nowhere.
Whether Patsy did it, or John.... I don't think it was planned at all. I think it was rage, then a serious case of "what will people think?"

PR's temper was mentioned more than once by people that knew her.

Re the asymetrical ponytails...I think I may be the only one here who really does not think they have anything to do with the crime or staging. PR mentioned she always put JBR's hair in a ponytail when she got her ready for bed. That would be the lower ponytail near the nape of the neck (the one that got wound into the garrotte). And JBR is sometimes seen with a topknot-style ponytail gathering just the front portion on hair up into the hairtie and leaving the rest to fall down long aroud her shoulders. I've seen this hairstyle in the picture we've all seen posted here and elsewhere- a pretty JBR in a navy blue/white piping top and a big white bow holding her topknot ponytail. IF she went to the White's party with that topknot (and remember she had a red/white/black hairtie wrapped around it over the blue one) it would have matched her outfit that day. So it is possible that when they got home, PR simply left the topknot in place and pulled the rest of the long hair back into the lower ponytail.
I think if there was a sexual scenario involving erotic asphyxiation or anything to do with the garrotte- I just can't see arranging a child's hair would be a part of that. If looking at her face as she is strangled is important- her hair wouldn't prevent that if left long. And actually, it seems from the evidence she was strangled from the back, while laying on her stomach. Livor mortis patterns indicate she was placed on her back either at death or right after, as if she had not been, there would be a livor pattern in the front instead of the back. There was also livor mortis on the right side of her face, which is in keeping with the way she was discovered with her head cocked to the right.

 

[armywife210]

Do we know for a fact that Patsy put her hair in a low pony tail before bed? I know she said that she'd do that.... but who here doesn't do just the oppisite when preparing their girls for bed???? While my youngest is brushing her teeth, I take her ponytails or braids, or whatever out of her hair. Have you ever tried to sleep on a ponytail? It's not comfortable! And what's the point? Ya wake up in the morning and your hair is all crazy and not in anything resembling a ponytail anymore! If we get home and my daughter is asleep, I just plop her against me while I take it out.

 

[DeeDee249]

PR mentioned that she usually put JBR's hair in a ponytail for bed. No one has any way of knowing whether she did it that night. Photos of JBR Christmas morning show her still in the pink pajamas with her hair down long. But that still doesn't mean she didn't sleep in a ponytail. She could have pulled out the hairtie right after getting up. My daughter always had waist-length hair. I made a loose ponytail or braid every night. She's 31 and she STILL does it.

 

[armywife210]

well, there ya have it.... people DO do that! I guess I just sleep so "all over the place" that even wearing pajamas makes me feel constricted. I have always been like that!!!! Then again, my hair is down to my shoulders so what do I know???????