The GB4 and Shannan Gilbert-Connecting the dots

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Once more, is there any confirmation, the unsub called Terry and called him for a longer period of time than he called the sister?

Yes, that is the report that I have seen in news outlets....Terry was called by an unknown person for approx 8 months. The phone that was used was a burner, not Melissa's. The caller described Terry's tattoos and spoke about what Melissa and Terry used to do together (sexually, I inferred). Your post about the caller knowing Terry and thus the prolonged interest is interesting because Terry has stated he had driven Melissa to LI to a client's house before....it is not confirmed, at least to my knowledge, that this was the same client Melissa went to see the night she disappeared. Now, is it possible that the client had seen Terry dropping off Melissa at his house and that sparked the interest? Or did Terry even perhaps walk Melissa up to the door of the house at any point? We don't know for sure if the client actually physically saw Terry at any point.

And one last point to consider, Terry also claimed he told LE he remembered where the client's house was and how to get there and was willing to show LE but was never taken up on the offer. It's reasonable that there are many explanations for this, but we do not know the actual reason LE never met ith Terry to go to the house.

Sorry, the real last point, during the recent news conference, LE stated they brought one person in for an interview, but have not named him as a suspect...could be any number of people
 
LE brought exactly one person in in the whole case and let him go again. That was Brewer. And when it comes to Terry's offer, I would think, LE doesn't consider him reliable. The long and nasty history of serial killing shows, that LE regularly waits till the suspect together with some bodies appears on their threshold and even then, they have normally doubts. Or of course, till the suspect gets a parking ticket. They are amazing fast when it comes to parking and speeding tickets.
But now seriously: If Terry is reliable in that one point, the prolonged phase of phone calls, then this would be more than just having seen him once driving Melissa out to the client. This would be personal and almost right in the face. That would mean, he knows Terry and Terry knows him without being aware of. Someone, both, Melissa and Terry saw regularly at their local dealer, at the grocery, someone hanging out in the area, a neighbor they never paid attention to or the guy at the laundromat. Someone, they don't notice, someone in fact, who is never noticed. But still, someone from their daily life.
 
LE brought exactly one person in in the whole case and let him go again. That was Brewer.
Are you 100% positive on this?

Remember at one time we were told that a former Staten Island police officer was being questioned because phone records proved that he was the last person to speak with Maureen alive.
 
LE brought exactly one person in in the whole case and let him go again. That was Brewer. And when it comes to Terry's offer, I would think, LE doesn't consider him reliable. The long and nasty history of serial killing shows, that LE regularly waits till the suspect together with some bodies appears on their threshold and even then, they have normally doubts. Or of course, till the suspect gets a parking ticket. They are amazing fast when it comes to parking and speeding tickets.
But now seriously: If Terry is reliable in that one point, the prolonged phase of phone calls, then this would be more than just having seen him once driving Melissa out to the client. This would be personal and almost right in the face. That would mean, he knows Terry and Terry knows him without being aware of. Someone, both, Melissa and Terry saw regularly at their local dealer, at the grocery, someone hanging out in the area, a neighbor they never paid attention to or the guy at the laundromat. Someone, they don't notice, someone in fact, who is never noticed. But still, someone from their daily life.

I'd disagree on one point - from what I gathered, LE brought in someone aside from brewer for interviews but did not name him as a suspect. However, it's quite possibly irrevelant at this point.

Now if we go according to your theory, this person must have been in their lives regularly, so where would he come from? Not LI, because they only traveled their for clients, not too often. Someone from the neighborhood MB lived in the Bronx? She rented a basement apartment from a Bangladeshi family. Someone from their hometown who followed them to NYC? Or someone who knew them from Manhattan, where MB often went and worked, such as the Port Authority terminal?
 
Now if we go according to your theory, this person must have been in their lives regularly, so where would he come from? Not LI, because they only traveled their for clients, not too often. Someone from the neighborhood MB lived in the Bronx? She rented a basement apartment from a Bangladeshi family. Someone from their hometown who followed them to NYC? Or someone who knew them from Manhattan, where MB often went and worked, such as the Port Authority terminal?


I like where you are going with this.

So what you are really asking is; in their line of work and living their lifestyle, what individual could possibly be a common denominator between each of them. I will start the list for everyone:

  1. One of their drug dealers.
  2. A common friend in LE who can be called upon for assistance when in trouble with the law.
  3. An arresting police officer/detective.
  4. A pimp who they worked for in the past.
  5. Someone they met in rehab (either another junkie or a counselor).
  6. A photographer who snapped their photos for their online ads.
  7. A doctor or nurse who provided them with treatment in the past.
  8. An attorney or public defender who assisted them with legal matters.
  9. An ex-boyfriend.
  10. Someone famous who they would recognize immediately (or someone impersonating someone famous).
  11. An employee or owner of a well known escort agency.
  12. A parole officer.
  13. A cell phone dealer.
  14. A driver or owner of a Limo company.
  15. A criminal attorney (especially one of those who advertise on BACKPAGE.com).
  16. A manager or employee of a hotel or motel that each of them were regulars at.
  17. And my all-time favorite: AN ACCOUNT MANAGER AT BACKPAGE.COM or CRAIGSLIST.COM who each of them constantly called to place their new ads!!!
 
Backpage is owned and run by Village Voice Media located right at 36 Cooper Square in New York city.

No offense but some of these victims do not seem like the type to be traveling with laptop computers (nor does it appear that they had time on their hands to visit their local public library to use the free Internet). SOMEONE had to constantly update their free online ads for them (including taking the digital photos and uploading them).

Locate a common person who assisted them with their ads and if you don't have a prime suspect you will at least have someone with a wealth of information to share about the victims.
 
Backpage is owned and run by Village Voice Media located right at 36 Cooper Square in New York city.

No offense but some of these victims do not seem like the type to be traveling with laptop computers (nor does it appear that they had time on their hands to visit their local public library to use the free Internet). SOMEONE had to constantly update their free online ads for them (including taking the digital photos and uploading them).

Locate a common person who assisted them with their ads and if you don't have a prime suspect you will at least have someone with a wealth of information to share about the victims.

Also consider someone in the *advertiser censored* film industry (or someone who says he is). I've tracked aspirations of "making it big" to 3 of our 4 girls.

One thing I'm looking at now is a website which locates girls for adult entertainment jobs (modeling, film, private parties, etc.). It has a pick and choose search engine where you can search body type specifics (think about that!). One of our girls had an ad there.
 
Are you 100% positive on this?

Remember at one time we were told that a former Staten Island police officer was being questioned because phone records proved that he was the last person to speak with Maureen alive.

In fact, the state trooper questioned him at his normal work place because he was the last John making contact with her via Craigslist. The only one formally brought in according to my knowledge was Brewer. But maybe you find more and LE lied to the public once more. Who would know?
 
According to this article dated Feb 1, 2011 LE was seeking to question three johns.

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-02-01/news/27738436_1_serial-killer-craigslist-phone-numbers

~snipped~

Investigators have been poring over the women's records to find anyone who had called them repeatedly or had contact with more than one of the women.

They discovered that the phone numbers of the three men showed up in the records multiple times.
wm
Yet we still do not hear any mention of police sorting through data on any personal computers or laptops owned by the victims. This further supports my theory that each of the four victims either worked with someone they knew who had a computer or they worked directly with the employees of the websites where they advertised in order to have their ads posted to their websites.

SOMEONE had to assist them with snapping photos and uploading them to the internet. Then there is the wording of the advertisements and the constant updating of dates/locations where they will be available.

I am very curious to know if the victims re-posted their ads repeatably throughought the day or if they were more like once a day advertisers. The sites where you can advertise for free always display the ads in the order in which they were posted. If you look at ads for any category from lawnmowers to escorts you'll see that there are people who are constantly re-posted their ads (sometimes a dozen or more times throughout the day) to help give their ads a competitive advantage by being at the top of the list more often. If we learn that our victims did not re-post their ads over and over again throughout the same day, this could further support my theory that they did not have easy access to the internet (except possibly ALC since she worked out of an actual house with roommates who probably one of them did have a computer).
 
Yet we still do not hear any mention of police sorting through data on any personal computers or laptops owned by the victims. This further supports my theory that each of the four victims either worked with someone they knew who had a computer or they worked directly with the employees of the websites where they advertised in order to have their ads posted to their websites.

SOMEONE had to assist them with snapping photos and uploading them to the internet. Then there is the wording of the advertisements and the constant updating of dates/locations where they will be available.

I am very curious to know if the victims re-posted their ads repeatably throughought the day or if they were more like once a day advertisers. The sites where you can advertise for free always display the ads in the order in which they were posted. If you look at ads for any category from lawnmowers to escorts you'll see that there are people who are constantly re-posted their ads (sometimes a dozen or more times throughout the day) to help give their ads a competitive advantage by being at the top of the list more often. If we learn that our victims did not re-post their ads over and over again throughout the same day, this could further support my theory that they did not have easy access to the internet (except possibly ALC since she worked out of an actual house with roommates who probably one of them did have a computer).


I agree seaslug. It was reported that the ladies worked independently but I am thinking more like independent of an 'escort service'. We know SG had a driver, MP, who JB contacted directly to hire Shannan. (sorry no link but can possibly find it). I don't think any of these girls were truly independent. MOO

wm
 
Yet we still do not hear any mention of police sorting through data on any personal computers or laptops owned by the victims. This further supports my theory that each of the four victims either worked with someone they knew who had a computer or they worked directly with the employees of the websites where they advertised in order to have their ads posted to their websites.

SOMEONE had to assist them with snapping photos and uploading them to the internet. Then there is the wording of the advertisements and the constant updating of dates/locations where they will be available.

I am very curious to know if the victims re-posted their ads repeatably throughought the day or if they were more like once a day advertisers. The sites where you can advertise for free always display the ads in the order in which they were posted. If you look at ads for any category from lawnmowers to escorts you'll see that there are people who are constantly re-posted their ads (sometimes a dozen or more times throughout the day) to help give their ads a competitive advantage by being at the top of the list more often. If we learn that our victims did not re-post their ads over and over again throughout the same day, this could further support my theory that they did not have easy access to the internet (except possibly ALC since she worked out of an actual house with roommates who probably one of them did have a computer).

BBM

Yes we do.

When Brainard-Barnes disappeared in 2007, Connecticut detectives came to Manhattan and went through her computer.

Read more: http://www.dnainfo.com/20110516/man...ntact-murder-victim-sources-say#ixzz1ZRvBAxpV
 
Yet we still do not hear any mention of police sorting through data on any personal computers or laptops owned by the victims... .

LE did, that was how they found that state trooper. But I can imagine, it is in general a bit difficult to find all those clients. They tend not to use real names in their emails, freemailers with faked data and such stuff. Not everyone uses his name in the internet, a lot of people use nicks like Seaslug or Waltzinmathilda or Mountain_Kat. Still, it's possible to find people behind those nicks, but somehow, I doubt, LE has the necessary resources to do that for all Johns.
 
OK. I have gone back to square one and am starting over.

We know the victims were prostitutes.

We know these girls were hired by johns.

Based on those two facts, I became curious about why a man hires a prostitute/escort and also if there are any statistics regarding: socioeconomical group, age, and profession.

MOO, but we must first understand why men have a 'penchant for strippers' before we can begin to understand what causes escalation to a SK.

Anyway, here's a start.....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/jan/15/why-men-use-prostitutes

http://www.eaves4women.co.uk/Documents/Recent_Reports/Men Who Buy Sex.pdf

MOO, as always.

wm
 
Thank you Waltzing and Mountain Kat for starting this new thread, WM, I am like you, I went back to the start and pretended I knew nothing about the case. While so much research has been put into this case from very smart, caring people, I began to mix known facts with facts that have not been substantiated and my brain started to hurt. Nothing made sense anymore to me in the case. So I went back and just looked at the GB4, even leaving Shannan out of it for the time being. Anyway, that's why I began to focus on Melissa the most, because due to the phone calls, obviously her case has the most info to offer and research/analyze. I think if I am able to pinpoint Melissa's last night, connect it to the phone calls, and locations, I will begin to form a picture...at least to me. I really think it's all there for us to see - we just need to find the right pieces and fit them together..."everything is connected, everything is linked. Just because those links are invisible sometimes, doesn't mean they aren't there." - My motto I am living by in this case
 
OK. I have gone back to square one and am starting over.

We know the victims were prostitutes.

We know these girls were hired by johns.

Based on those two facts, I became curious about why a man hires a prostitute/escort and also if there are any statistics regarding: socioeconomical group, age, and profession.

MOO, but we must first understand why men have a 'penchant for strippers' before we can begin to understand what causes escalation to a SK.

Anyway, here's a start.....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/jan/15/why-men-use-prostitutes

http://www.eaves4women.co.uk/Documents/Recent_Reports/Men Who Buy Sex.pdf

MOO, as always.

wm

Nice study, but with 103 members of the base set hardly conclusive. However, lets go back to the basics here:

Men, by evolutionary development differ from women in one very significant way. The male strategy of reproduction is based on spreading semen as much and as far as possible. Basically, evolution rewarded promiscuity for men. It's not new, we can prove that by archaeological material back at least for some 5 million years. Which technically means, all men today are descendants of promiscuitive males.
The moment, social rules enforced to bind sexual activity to one partner only, prostitution blossomed. It's easy to hide, easy to get and so on. It's just, what mother nature taught men: How to spread semen without too much hassle. And since it's built in wiring, men do it without thinking about it, feel later embarrassed because they did, swear never to do it again and will do it anyway next week. Once, man is aware of it, the problem solves on it's own. Of course, having a wife with who sex is fun and not marital duty, helps a lot too.
That answers also the question for age and social standing: Basically, you will find all kinds of males, all races and all ages as Johns. As long as they can afford it and find the time. Of course, some groups are more prone to this business, but not because they are wired differently. The businessman 5 days/week on sales travel has definitively more opportunity than the worker who earns just enough to pay the bills and is basically every night at home.

The thing with "strippers" has an additional aspect. Women are nose-controlled (the sense of smelling is in women average three times as strong as in men). Women, without being aware of it, made their first decision when they meet a new male with their nose. Men on the other hand are visual animals. Men have, interesting fact, nobody really wants to know, double the number of color-blind motion sensors in our eyes than women. Hunters, warriors and sheriffs are kept alive by this extra-equipment to see from the corner of the eye. But it also means, male brains react with a lot higher priority to what we see than to any other sense. Which consequently means, sexual attraction works best with men on the visual way. Or why do you think, Victoria's Secret is such a successful business?

Prostitutes and SKs. Now, that's a never ending story. In the good old times (aka pre-internet ages), sks with a lack of social skills would go to the prostitute on skid row because usually, the hooker starts the first contact, the sk can't start due to real or perceived flaws, he has. A nice example for that kind was Robert Hansen in Alaska. The socially awkward psychopath is probably the most common form of prostitute killer and today, in the internet age, the anonymity of the web allows it even socially awkward persons to make a first contact. So technically, the internet isn't for *advertiser censored* only but for serial killers.

Another kind of sks killing prostitutes is the traveling/no chance type. This group normally includes mostly truckers and traveling salesmen. Those men are often too much time on the road to have normal relationship. Prostitutes are basically their only chance to get some sex. But of course, sex isn't all, those men want and so a growing cleft between wish and reality and the need to push up the kick of the rather technical sex with prostitutes, combined with too much time aloe to dwell in some pretty unhealthy fantasies can (and does occasionally) evolve in a fully blown SK. Often, this type has in the secondary diagnoses control issues because they feel, their life is controlled by others. Bruce Mendenhall maybe rings a bell.

Then, there is the little group of mission-driven sks, who has also their own variant of prostitute killers. That is really rare and only for reasons of completeness listed here. This type is regularly religious or racial driven, hiding suppressed sexual issues behind a "more righteous than you" attitude. In fact, that is often the most brutal type. Billy Glaze is an example. But in fact, this type is overlapping with types of anger-assault-rapists than fully blown sks. Some of them use racial inferiority complexes as justification and some religious righteousness.

Then we have the lazy psychopath/sadist. Kind of sk101 in fact. Those are sadists who basically turn on prostitutes because of the easy availability. They would kill other women too if it wouldn't be so much work to lure them to a dark place. Those guys come technically in all levels of organization and generally, the lower the organizational level, the higher the probability, they catch themselves a prostitute.

And we shouldn't forget the garden variety coveter. A lot of prostitutes are killed by persons, they know (basically like every other murder victim too). However, compulsive stalker types and mission-driven types in the life-environment of the victims have often fantasies fueled by the profession of the hooker. It's that thing of fascination and at the same time disgust. Want to try but feels it wrong. Typically, that kind of sk is living in the same area as his victims, sees them and covets them. The coveter in his pure form is rather rare, but in combination with other inferiority complexes and the wish to be noticed, it appears this type has raising numbers.

So, here my long two cents, and I really tried to shorten it as much as I could :crazy:
 
Thank you Waltzing and Mountain Kat for starting this new thread, WM, I am like you, I went back to the start and pretended I knew nothing about the case. While so much research has been put into this case from very smart, caring people, I began to mix known facts with facts that have not been substantiated and my brain started to hurt. Nothing made sense anymore to me in the case. So I went back and just looked at the GB4, even leaving Shannan out of it for the time being. Anyway, that's why I began to focus on Melissa the most, because due to the phone calls, obviously her case has the most info to offer and research/analyze. I think if I am able to pinpoint Melissa's last night, connect it to the phone calls, and locations, I will begin to form a picture...at least to me. I really think it's all there for us to see - we just need to find the right pieces and fit them together..."everything is connected, everything is linked. Just because those links are invisible sometimes, doesn't mean they aren't there." - My motto I am living by in this case

I'm right there in the same boat with you and Matilida with respect to having to take a step WAY back and re-evaluate what we know (or THINK we know). There have been alot of assumptions presented as fact, and alot of "facts" taken from non-msm sources that are just plain wrong. Hell, even some "facts" widely reported in several msm outlets are wrong. All we can do, if we're starting over fresh, is insist that we've done everything humanly possible to get what facts we do have straight.

And I'm game to do that...because these girls own me at this point. I couldn't walk away if I wanted to.
 
Also...msm lists 2 different dates for when Melissa went missing.

CNN reports it as being July 12, 2009. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20029621-504083.html

NY Times reports that Melissa went missing July 10, 2009. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/25/nyregion/25bodies.html

Someone pointed out to me that the discrepancy in dates probably come from some confusion about the date Melissa went missing and the date that she was reported missing. That makes perfect sense to me, but since I can only go with msm reports, I have to take the position that I can't say with any certainty whether Melissa disappeared on the July 10, or on July 12. :(
 
OK, good find MK...so as it stands we now have 3 of the 4 girls expecting someone to pick them up. Melissa was waiting at the curb waiting for someone to pick her up (don't know if it was a john, SK, or whomever) although from Terry's statement it appears she was waiting for a john. Megan walked out of her hotel at 1:30 am without her phone and began walking down the road from her hotel. Amber left her house to meet someone without her phone. Maureen is what we do not know what happened exactly, something that her inlaws said she was going to a hotel in Times Square. But we don't know if she ever made it to or left the hotel.
 
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