The oversized Bloomingdale’s panties.

[UKGuy]

Appreciate the response and apology.

Let's get back to oversized undies then.....

We should really take apart and revisit the significance of Patsy Ramsey/the Ramseys producing that package of underwear all those years later with the Wednesdays missing (irrelevant if it is the exact pkg. or not).

I do believe it solidifies their involvement.

How can anyone ignore all that that means to the case, when taken with the circumstances, their own words, what theories that eliminates, etc.

And what's the word - it's more than arrogance - I need a word that describes profound arrogance and stupidity rolled into one - that also describes their own proclivity to think they are brilliant that their action in turning over this package somehow helped their case.

If I were the investigator, police, or whomever that received that package from them, I would know in that moment what I thought I knew, and be dumbfounded that the Ramseys themselves would not know all the pieces of the puzzle handing that package over would put into place.

How could they think that handing it over means, 'oh here, this why you didn't find the package, silly us, but we are still innocent?

It means everything.

Perhaps the word I'm looking for is hubris?

Whaleshark,
Hubris, possibly, but they never appeared in court. So they can justify their hubris. Could it be its playing out as some kind of tragedy, with the son soon left to inherit the consequences of parents actions?

There must be evidence that we are not aware of, that caused the R's to return the underwear, else they could blame it all on the intruder?

After all the intruder sexually assaulted JonBenet according to both Steve Thomas and Coroner Meyer. So if he is weird enough to indulge in some EA, why not an underwear fetish?

Did Patsy say she placed the package, unopened, into JonBenet's underwear drawer, I forget?

Somebody opened the package, if it was JonBenet then her fingerprints and dna should be on the package?

The size-12's are the key to the case, not the ransom note, or the garrote, simply because, even in a staged crime-scene, we all know she should not be wearing them. Despite Patsy's claims that JonBenet wanted to be a big girl and have them, I never bought that one.

Now if there were no sexual assault and it was all staging, which it might be then why bother with the size-12's, they seem counter-intuitive. No assault must mean JonBenet can wear the size-6's she wore to the Whites?

With Patsy lying about the size-12's in such a contradictory manner has me thinking it was not her who redressed JonBenet in the size-12's, that was someone else's plan , who left Patsy to talk her way out of the aftermath.

Someone else thought we need a Wednesday feature here. What would be interesting would be to compare the colors of the size-6 and size-12 Bloomingdales, that matched on the Wednesday feature, if I had a hit on that then that would provisionally confirm it for me.

 

[Whaleshark]

There must be evidence that we are not aware of, that caused the R's to return the underwear, else they could blame it all on the intruder?

I don't know. I think she thought returning them jived with her story about saying the underwear was available for JonBenet to get into. But it actually hurts them more than helps....

Did Patsy say she placed the package, unopened, into JonBenet's underwear drawer, I forget?

Well, she said some 'must haves' and 'maybes' about not giving the gift to the cousin after all so she put them in there and JonBenet probably opened them because they were 'free game'.... looking for the testimony now... will post shortly. -- Found it -- see below.

Somebody opened the package, if it was JonBenet then her fingerprints and dna should be on the package?

True that. Police could, and may have done that already...or not. I wonder if they did. Although even if her DNA was on it, and it was the actual package, why would it not have been found by the police anyway? There's been discussion about that as well...But if the pkg. was not in the drawer, yadda, yadda, then how would the sister who went in to retrieve certain things, have been able to find the underwear?

The size-12's are the key to the case, not the ransom note, or the garrote, simply because, even in a staged crime-scene, we all know she should not be wearing them. Despite Patsy's claims that JonBenet wanted to be a big girl and have them, I never bought that one.

Totally.

Now if there were no sexual assault and it was all staging, which it might be then why bother with the size-12's, they seem counter-intuitive. No assault must mean JonBenet can wear the size-6's she wore to the Whites?

Well, it's not just counter-intuitive, that size is nowhere close to her size. The fact she is wearing them means something, and is not the norm for a child her size at all. But it doesn't have to be one scenario or the other. Again, you know I consider things can be results of a lot of complex factors, while I know you tend to lean straight Occams, but she could have them on for numerous reasons - but none of which make sense for a child who needs extra protection if she regularly wets the bed, for one. And two, for a child who was obviously wiped down and redressed because there was blood in numerous places, and on numerous things, but not much on that underwear. So the evidence would show that she was probably redressed in them after the fact, and did not have them on before the attack.

Also, if we were to assume the punishment/bedwet angle, and rough handling/vaginal trauma related to that (harsh wiping, douching, spanking, and severe punisment) - not that I buy that theory - I am not committed to any, but supposing - the large underwear could be due to the attitude of Patsy about JonBenet not wearing pullups and trying to get her to wear big girl underwear and suffer the discomfort of the underwear --
-- As noted earlier in this thread, "she (Patsy) specifically said she stopped putting them (pullups) on JonBenet as she felt that with pull ups on, she wouldn't be able to feel she was wet".

With Patsy lying about the size-12's in such a contradictory manner has me thinking it was not her who redressed JonBenet in the size-12's, that was someone else's plan, who left Patsy to talk her way out of the aftermath.

Could be. I haven't decided the scenario 100% myself. However, I wouldn't just base the reason being on her contradictory manner. For don't we all know how contradictory she has been on numerous other things, and not just her, but John as well? Patsy changed her story from the beginning, right from when she said JonBenet was wearing the red turtleneck at first... each of their stories changed about how everything went down that morning, and have continued to change over time.

Someone else thought we need a Wednesday feature here. What would be interesting would be to compare the colors of the size-6 and size-12 Bloomingdales, that matched on the Wednesday feature, if I had a hit on that then that would provisionally confirm it for me.

Well, I don't know if it had to be someone else that needed a Wednesday feature. Couldn't any of them have had the thought that they needed a Wednesday feature to match what she was previously wearing? And I know your reasoning that it might have been someone else because Patsy was so contradictory in the first place, and trying to make up for someone else... but again, she, as well as each of them, changed their stories numerous times anyway.

Things we know:
1) The underwear was purchased by Patsy for Jenny as a gift.
2) The underwear did not fit Jonbenet.
3) The Ramseys said JonBenet put that underwear on herself and have never seen her put that size on herself ever before - just this night only.
4) Package was not found by police.
5) Lame story to state how a pair from the package originally purchased for Jenny ended up on JonBenet:

MR. MORRISSEY: Did you ever see if they fell down around her ankles or not?
THE WITNESS: No.
MS. HARMER: But you specifically remember her putting on the bigger pair?
And I am not saying --
THE WITNESS: They were just in her panty drawer, so I don't, you know, I don't pay attention. I mean, I just put all of her clean panties in a drawer and she can help herself to whatever is in there.
MS. HARMER: I guess I am not clear on, you bought the panties to give to Jenny.
THE WITNESS: Right.
MS. HARMER: And they ended up in JonBenet's bathroom?
A. Right.
Q.(By Ms. Harmer) Was there - I'm sorry. Do you recall making a decision then
not to give them to Jenny or did JonBenet express an interest in them; therefore, you didn't give them to Jenny? How did that --
A. I can't say for sure. I mean, I think I bought them with the intention of sending them in a package of Christmas things to Atlanta. Obviously I didn't get that together, so I just put them in her, her panty drawer. So they were free game.

 

[Agatha_C]

Actually guys, I think it was one of the R's investigators that found the panties. If I remember correctly, they were found in a box being stored in Nedra's garage. Most likely, when this person found the stashed/hidden panties after all that time, the R's couldnt very well brush it off. I mean how would that have looked to their own investigators? JMHO

I'll see if I can find a link that supports this......

 

[cynic]

Actually guys, I think it was one of the R's investigators that found the panties. If I remember correctly, they were found in a box being stored in Nedra's garage. Most likely, when this person found the stashed/hidden panties after all that time, the R's couldnt very well brush it off. I mean how would that have looked to their own investigators? JMHO

I'll see if I can find a link that supports this......

Hey AC, check it out...
[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showpost.php?p=107088&postcount=88"]Forums For Justice - View Single Post - The Gigantic (Girls Size 12-14) "Bloomies" Underwear Found On JonBenet[/ame]

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

All that money and you buy a pack of panties for your niece for Christmas.

Pasty said she'd wake JonBenet up around midnight to use the bathroom so there would be no accidents.

Did she go to wake her up and she wasn't in bed? Could she of found her in the basement and did hit her instead of John, JAR or Burke?

I think of John (in PMPT) tapping his foot and holding his head in his hands. That seems like a man that has alot going on in his head and not just a kidnapping.


ILTBP

 

[UKGuy]

Hey AC, check it out...
Forums For Justice - View Single Post - The Gigantic (Girls Size 12-14) "Bloomies" Underwear Found On JonBenet

cynic,
Well I'll bet people are even more confused. Just where were the remaining size-12's found? In Boulder or another state, in a packing crate or in a drawer, who found them, and did they photograph them, and bag them? Or did they deliberately manhandle them and pass them around for everyone to inspect?

And why are they so important, what aspect of the R's story do they confirm?



.

 

[UKGuy]

All that money and you buy a pack of panties for your niece for Christmas.

Pasty said she'd wake JonBenet up around midnight to use the bathroom so there would be no accidents.

Did she go to wake her up and she wasn't in bed? Could she of found her in the basement and did hit her instead of John, JAR or Burke?

I think of John (in PMPT) tapping his foot and holding his head in his hands. That seems like a man that has alot going on in his head and not just a kidnapping.


ILTBP

ILikeToBendPages,

All that money and you buy a pack of panties for your niece for Christmas.

Patsy thought you might be brain-dead, because she reckons this is what the Little People buy their female relatives at Christmas time, LOL!

Did she go to wake her up and she wasn't in bed? Could she of found her in the basement and did hit her instead of John, JAR or Burke?

She probably never saw her own bed that night, particularly if the sexual assault is real and not staged.

I think of John (in PMPT) tapping his foot and holding his head in his hands. That seems like a man that has alot going on in his head and not just a kidnapping.

You are spot on!



.

 

[UKGuy]

...

Well, I don't know if it had to be someone else that needed a Wednesday feature. Couldn't any of them have had the thought that they needed a Wednesday feature to match what she was previously wearing? And I know your reasoning that it might have been someone else because Patsy was so contradictory in the first place, and trying to make up for someone else... but again, she, as well as each of them, changed their stories numerous times anyway.

Well the difference is this: Patsy knew about JonBenet wearing those size-12's prior to entering her interview, this piece of information had been published by a tabloid, NI I think. So Patsy knew a question was coming her way about those size-12's, so did JR, and the RST, yet Patsy elected to state she placed the size-12's into JonBenet's underwear drawer, knowing full well there was none there, because she had removed them along with the size-6 underwear?

This is why I suggest it was someone else who considered the Wednesday feature important, simply because we can agree its not the size and that Patsy should know where she placed the remaining size-12's?

Q.(By Ms. Harmer) Was there - I'm sorry. Do you recall making a decision then
not to give them to Jenny or did JonBenet express an interest in them; therefore, you didn't give them to Jenny? How did that --
A. I can't say for sure. I mean, I think I bought them with the intention of sending them in a package of Christmas things to Atlanta. Obviously I didn't get that together, so I just put them in her, her panty drawer. So they were free game.

This is where Patsy is lying through her teeth, and surely highlights a flaw in other RDI theories. Since Patsy explicitly states she was going to send the size-12's to Atlanta, I assume that meant mail and not by the Ramsey private plane after Christmas?

Things we know:
1) The underwear was purchased by Patsy for Jenny as a gift.
2) The underwear did not fit Jonbenet.
3) The Ramseys said JonBenet put that underwear on herself and have never seen her put that size on herself ever before - just this night only.
4) Package was not found by police.
5) Lame story to state how a pair from the package originally purchased for Jenny ended up on JonBenet:

Things we know:
6.

Beneath the long underwear are white panties with printed rose buds and the words "Wednesday" on the elastic waist band.

Things we do not know:
1. What was the color of the underwear found by BPD in JonBenet's underwear drawer.
2. What was the size of the underwear found by BPD in JonBenet's underwear drawer.
3. What was the brand of the underwear found by BPD in JonBenet's underwear drawer.
4. Was there a pair of white, size-6, Wednesday feature, Bloomingdales missing from JonBenet's underwear drawer?

.

 

[Chiquita71]

Every once in a while I am drawn to look up any "new" information about this case. I say "new" because it is new to me. I take no credit for coming up with the theory, I saw this theory(in general-and it could be argued that I have not presented it here well) on a message board(?)/posts/internet articles. I was reading other folks ideas/theories. I will also not be surprised to hear this theory has been posted here at WS. (eta: oh yes there it is just a few posts down-of course).

What if the size 12 panties were because Jonbenet needed diapers? Pull ups? Because of her accidents. If Jonbenet was wearing her pull up when she was (abused/attacked/killed) maybe the physical evidence was in that pull up-some was wiped off and residue was noted on her leg(s)-but the rest of the evidence went out with the diaper.

Maybe Jonbenet only ever had on the size 12 the day she was killed, because they were going to be out at people's homes. And that might explain how she was able to go around with too big panties?

Or the panties were just for night time and when Jonbenet was put to bed that night she was put in the pull ups and then the size 12 panties go over them. To stop accidents on the sheets?

Why wouldn't Patsy want to admit she had bought two sizes of panties for Jonbenet of the same kind(days of the week) specifically for Jonbenet? Maybe because who ever put the panties on "had" to be the one who put Jonbenet to bed-and in a "guilty" Ramsey mind that was too close to admitting who(which one)had killed Jonbenet and which one was the "one that person confided in"?

Thank you for indulging my questions. Any corrections or responses are appreciated. My post is meant as speculation of a (now)historical news event.

ETA: When I read the idea of pull ups and having to have bigger panties for them(I do not have children and I have never changed a baby/child and so for me this all sunk in quite slowly) was put before me I had the thoughts I posted above. I am sorry to repeat what others have stated but I need to ask it in my own way to understand. Thanks.

 

[UKGuy]

Every once in a while I am drawn to look up any "new" information about this case. I say "new" because it is new to me. I take no credit for coming up with the theory, I saw this theory(in general-and it could be argued that I have not presented it here well) on a message board(?)/posts/internet articles. I was reading other folks ideas/theories. I will also not be surprised to hear this theory has been posted here at WS. (eta: oh yes there it is just a few posts down-of course).

What if the size 12 panties were because Jonbenet needed diapers? Pull ups? Because of her accidents. If Jonbenet was wearing her pull up when she was (abused/attacked/killed) maybe the physical evidence was in that pull up-some was wiped off and residue was noted on her leg(s)-but the rest of the evidence went out with the diaper.

Maybe Jonbenet only ever had on the size 12 the day she was killed, because they were going to be out at people's homes. And that might explain how she was able to go around with too big panties?

Or the panties were just for night time and when Jonbenet was put to bed that night she was put in the pull ups and then the size 12 panties go over them. To stop accidents on the sheets?

Why wouldn't Patsy want to admit she had bought two sizes of panties for Jonbenet of the same kind(days of the week) specifically for Jonbenet? Maybe because who ever put the panties on "had" to be the one who put Jonbenet to bed-and in a "guilty" Ramsey mind that was too close to admitting who(which one)had killed Jonbenet and which one was the "one that person confided in"?

Thank you for indulging my questions. Any corrections or responses are appreciated. My post is meant as speculation of a (now)historical news event.

ETA: When I read the idea of pull ups and having to have bigger panties for them(I do not have children and I have never changed a baby/child and so for me this all sunk in quite slowly) was put before me I had the thoughts I posted above. I am sorry to repeat what others have stated but I need to ask it in my own way to understand. Thanks.

Chiquita71,
Well the diaper theory is fine, why did Patsy not come up with it, so to explain away the size-12's, problem solved, no more questions?

Remember Patsy accepted she purchased Bloomingdale size-12's, yet none were found in her house, yet years later they magically appear, once the seriousness of the absence is realized.

Anyway why do you need underwear if you are wearing diapers?


.

 

[belimom]

All that money and you buy a pack of panties for your niece for Christmas.

Pasty said she'd wake JonBenet up around midnight to use the bathroom so there would be no accidents.

Did she go to wake her up and she wasn't in bed? Could she of found her in the basement and did hit her instead of John, JAR or Burke?

I think of John (in PMPT) tapping his foot and holding his head in his hands. That seems like a man that has alot going on in his head and not just a kidnapping.


ILTBP

bbm

I wonder if she woke her up to either take her to the potty or to put 'nightpants' on her, but found that she was too late. JBR perhaps had already wet the bed. PR flew into a rage, and the rest is, sadly, history.

This is one of many theories I have, btw. But a possible scenario.

And I saw this as a parent of a 5 1/2 yr old child who still regularly wets the bed. We put 'nightpants' (pull-up overnight diapers) on her every single night now b/c we got tired of changing sheets and a stinky mattress. There are some nights when she falls asleep in the car and is carried to bed. Then either DH or myself goes in later to put on the 'nightpants'. But sometimes we forget for awhile and go in too late.

I wonder if this is what happened with little JBR.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

bbm

I wonder if she woke her up to either take her to the potty or to put 'nightpants' on her, but found that she was too late. JBR perhaps had already wet the bed. PR flew into a rage, and the rest is, sadly, history.

This is one of many theories I have, btw. But a possible scenario.

And I saw this as a parent of a 5 1/2 yr old child who still regularly wets the bed. We put 'nightpants' (pull-up overnight diapers) on her every single night now b/c we got tired of changing sheets and a stinky mattress. There are some nights when she falls asleep in the car and is carried to bed. Then either DH or myself goes in later to put on the 'nightpants'. But sometimes we forget for awhile and go in too late.

I wonder if this is what happened with little JBR.

Pasty had JonBenet wearing pull ups several months before,but had stopped using them because JonBenet didn't seem to mind being wet. There was a package of pull ups hanging out of a cabinet in the laundry area near JonBenet's bedroom.

I think Burke also had a period of time when he regressed and was using them.

 

[DeeDee249]

Chiquita71,
Well the diaper theory is fine, why did Patsy not come up with it, so to explain away the size-12's, problem solved, no more questions?

Remember Patsy accepted she purchased Bloomingdale size-12's, yet none were found in her house, yet years later they magically appear, once the seriousness of the absence is realized.

Anyway why do you need underwear if you are wearing diapers?


.

You don't "need" underwear if you are wearing diapers, but in the case of a little girl who is wearing them, panties over the diaper or pull up- the panties hide the diaper underneath. Having has a little girl who stopped wearing diapers by the age of 2, I always put a pair of cute ruffled panties on over her diaper if she was wearing a dress. No need of she was wearing pants, but in a dress I wanted the diaper covered.
A pull up is nothing more than a diaper that is made to pull up and down like underwear instead of fastening at the sides like a standard diaper. They are made out of the same absorbent material.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

You don't "need" underwear if you are wearing diapers, but in the case of a little girl who is wearing them, panties over the diaper or pull up- the panties hide the diaper underneath. Having has a little girl who stopped wearing diapers by the age of 2, I always put a pair of cute ruffled panties on over her diaper if she was wearing a dress. No need of she was wearing pants, but in a dress I wanted the diaper covered.
A pull up is nothing more than a diaper that is made to pull up and down like underwear instead of fastening at the sides like a standard diaper. They are made out of the same absorbent material.

I used cloth diapers and rubber pants with my daughter, and always put the little white ruffled panties on under her dresses.

I've wondered and posted before about a "what if" JonBenet did wear a pull up to the Whites. In ways it makes sense in the size 12's remaining and removing a wet/dirty/bloody pull up. All you'd have to do was tear the sides and take it off and then pull up the size 12's and her longjohns......but then why no others in the house? And then there are those fibers from Johns shirt.

 

[DeeDee249]

I used cloth diapers and rubber pants with my daughter, and always put the little white ruffled panties on under her dresses.

I've wondered and posted before about a "what if" JonBenet did wear a pull up to the Whites. In ways it makes sense in the size 12's remaining and removing a wet/dirty/bloody pull up. All you'd have to do was tear the sides and take it off and then pull up the size 12's and her longjohns......but then why no others in the house? And then there are those fibers from Johns shirt.

I know LE examined the toilets and even the pipes- possibly looking for evidence such as a flushed diaper. As far as we know, none was found. Although housekeeper LHP said that Patsy had stopped using pull ups on JB, er really don't know whether any were used that day. I'd think JB herself wouldn't want to wear them. Kids that age that soil themselves are making a statement- it isn't simply a matter of laziness or lack of control. Especially in a case like JB, where she HAD been completely toilet trained by age three.
The pull ups make little difference, actually. If Patsy raged over an accident it wouldn't have been any less upsetting if she'd been wearing panties alone or pull ups- the clean up would be the same. No law says you have to launder soiled panties. Patsy was certainly able to throw them out. JB's body would be just as dirty wether it had been panties or pull ups.

 

[4Jacy]

bbm

I wonder if she woke her up to either take her to the potty or to put 'nightpants' on her, but found that she was too late. JBR perhaps had already wet the bed. PR flew into a rage, and the rest is, sadly, history.

This is one of many theories I have, btw. But a possible scenario.

And I saw this as a parent of a 5 1/2 yr old child who still regularly wets the bed. We put 'nightpants' (pull-up overnight diapers) on her every single night now b/c we got tired of changing sheets and a stinky mattress. There are some nights when she falls asleep in the car and is carried to bed. Then either DH or myself goes in later to put on the 'nightpants'. But sometimes we forget for awhile and go in too late.

I wonder if this is what happened with little JBR.

I resectfully have to disagree with your post. I mean, of course, you could be right, but I have always maintained PR caught JB with JBR in some sexually "activity", and bashed JR with the mag flashlight (remember, the one with no fingerprints on the flashlight or the batteries, lol)

Regarding the underpants: PR, I believe, would have put her in the correct size, JR probably didn't have a clue. JMNSHO!

 

[DeeDee249]

I resectfully have to disagree with your post. I mean, of course, you could be right, but I have always maintained PR caught JB with JBR in some sexually "activity", and bashed JR with the mag flashlight (remember, the one with no fingerprints on the flashlight or the batteries, lol)

Regarding the underpants: PR, I believe, would have put her in the correct size, JR probably didn't have a clue. JMNSHO!

The "wrong size" panties were in the right place at the right time. They were in the basement, part of a gift for Patsy's niece (for whom they were bought). When she was redressed, these panties went underneath the longjohns. To look at her, it wasn't apparent she was wearing panties that large. In fact, it wasn't until her clothing was removed at the autopsy that it became known. I think the size of the panties per se was not an issue to the stagers. It was simply a matter of using what was on hand right there. Had they been any other size they'd have been used as well. It prevented them from having to go upstairs to JB's room to get a pair of her own. So it wasn't a matter of choosing the right or wrong size- they were going on a dead/dying child who was never going to stand up in them or "wear" them in life.
And I think it surprised the Rs very much when the size of the panties became such an issue. I honestly think they thought no one would notice or give it a second thought.

 

[BOESP]

To me, the panties are a major clue it was an inside job. Child molesters don't care or take time to replace a pair of panties. Only a person who cared would redress an abused and molested child. To me, the redressing is more important than the size of the panties.

 

[belimom]

To me, the panties are a major clue it was an inside job. Child molesters don't care or take time to replace a pair of panties. Only a person who cared would redress an abused and molested child. To me, the redressing is more important than the size of the panties.

bbm

Very true. I think this is something we can all agree on.

 

[Darlene733510]

The size 12 panties which were to be a gift would have been put there in the basement by Patsy after she bought them. I can't remember if they were actually gift wrapped or not. If they weren't wrapped then I would think they were put there in the Bloomingdales bag until wrapping time, and only Patsy would have known this. I can't see her telling John that she bought the panties for a gift to her niece, and put the in the wrapping room.
This is why I believe it was Patsy who chose the size 12 panties which were found on JB. I would believe she assisted in putting them on JB, and that she was the one who chose the white blanket that JB was wrapped in. The blanket was in the clothes dryer, and I don't think John would even know that. Patsy knew right where the panties were, and the blanket.