The oversized Bloomingdale’s panties.

[Bayareamom]

Hey mama - glad to see someone's still up with me, here! But oh, I'm gettin' tired, so forgive me if I'm not too clear, here.

THANKS for taking the time to post the above. I really appreciate that. So here's a few questions:

1) So it is now clear to me that JONBENET TOLD Patsy that she wanted to keep the underwear AND that she told Patsy that 'she would grow into them.' Got it. But it is also now clear to me that indeed, those panties WERE un-packaged and put into a drawer IN THE BATHROOM. This is actually starting to make so much sense...

Question: Isn't it LIKELY that JONBENET would have taken those underpants and put them on herself AFTER she had possibly soiled herself that night? It would seem logical to me that HAD she soiled herself, she would have gone into her bathroom, tried to clean herself up a little and THEN pulled that underwear out and put them on? This would have happened, obviously before the events occurred which caused her death.

Also, would it not be possible if, after JonBenet had soiled herself (just speculating here) and let's say Patsy found her, got angry and whatever happened next INCLUDED the washing of JonBenet's sheets, etc., from the soiling? Hence (there's that word again), Patsy's having spent the night awake for the most part, as Steve Thomas has openly speculated.

I ask you, IS THIS POSSIBLE?

I would say it is. And I am sorry to say, but the last paragraph regarding the explanation as to why the Wednesday panties were placed onto JonBenet just doesn't work for me; doesn't make sense. There's no way that having size 12 underwear, clearly over-sized for JonBenet, would somehow obfuscate the issue as to molestation.

As Lee would say, "some ting not right.'

 

[midwest mama]

Hey mama - glad to see someone's still up with me, here! But oh, I'm gettin' tired, so forgive me if I'm not too clear, here.

THANKS for taking the time to post the above. I really appreciate that. So here's a few questions:

1) So it is now clear to me that JONBENET TOLD Patsy that she wanted to keep the underwear AND that she told Patsy that 'she would grow into them.' Got it. But it is also now clear to me that indeed, those panties WERE un-packaged and put into a drawer IN THE BATHROOM. This is actually starting to make so much sense...

Question: Isn't it LIKELY that JONBENET would have taken those underpants and put them on herself AFTER she had possibly soiled herself that night? It would seem logical to me that HAD she soiled herself, she would have gone into her bathroom, tried to clean herself up a little and THEN pulled that underwear out and put them on? This would have happened, obviously before the events occurred which caused her death.

Also, would it not be possible if, after JonBenet had soiled herself (just speculating here) and let's say Patsy found her, got angry and whatever happened next INCLUDED the washing of JonBenet's sheets, etc., from the soiling? Hence (there's that word again), Patsy's having spent the night awake for the most part, as Steve Thomas has openly speculated.

I ask you, IS THIS POSSIBLE?

I would say it is. And I am sorry to say, but the last paragraph regarding the explanation as to why the Wednesday panties were placed onto JonBenet just doesn't work for me; doesn't make sense. There's no way that having size 12 underwear, clearly over-sized for JonBenet, would somehow obfuscate the issue as to molestation.

As Lee would say, "some ting not right.'

Of course your evaluation is possible. It is clear after 16 years, and every avenue explored time and again by very capable investigators from very credible institutions (and some with questionable credibility) that there is no concrete theory which stands solid.

Agree totally, "some ting not right". Just as you said the thinking about using the over-sized panties does not work for you, others stand in disagreement.
As one person thinks they have finally figured something out, another has an alternative version. This, I expect, will be the nature of this Forum until the
first day of a trial against someone arrested for a minimum of Felony Murder in this case.

I'm tired too, so it's off to the old bed-a-roonie to catch enough zzzz's to revitalize me in the hopes some fresh thoughts will be worth adding to forum posts tomorrow. :seeya:

 

[Bayareamom]

I've enjoyed 'versing' with you mama. Nighty-night...

 

[dodie20]

Please reread my post. You have reversed (BBM) what I said, which was that JonBenet remarked to Patsy she wanted to keep them and that she would 'grow into them'. From: http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682505/Second Floor#OversizedPanties

this was published: "On the shopping spree, which included a visit to Bloomingdales', Patsy paid $24.99 for a size 12/14 set of "bloomies" panties with the days of the week on them for her niece, a girl older than JonBenét, according to a source. The seven-panty set was identical to one JonBenét had -- only hers were a size 6. When the gals returned to Boulder from their trip, Patsy was going to send the larger panties to her niece, but JonBenét wanted to keep them, an insider confides. "JonBenét and her mom were in her room when Patsy pulled out the pack of size 12 panties," says the insider. "An excited JonBenét told her mom, 'Don't send those to Aunt Polly -- I want them, I want them!' "When Patsy answered, 'But they are much too big for you,' JonBenét said, 'That's OK, Mom, I'll grow into them.' So Patsy opened the packages and put them into a bathroom drawer next to JonBenét's identical set of size 6 panties." Patsy kept the panties in a drawer in the bathroom -- instead of in the bedroom for convenience sake, says a source, because JonBenét often had to be washed and changed at night due to her frequent bed-wetting. But the source insists that JonBenét had never worn the larger briefs until the night of her death!"

Thanks for requesting the source, because in reading again, I see it is commented that Patsy did open the package and put them into the drawer.
So, it makes it possible JB could have dressed herself. But then, we have to ask why it was reported no others were found by BPD in that drawer, and later Wood turned over the package with the remaining pairs in it that the R's claimed they found when they were going through items after their move to Georgia. Such a dilemma, even after all these years.

The most repeated reason on the Forum, as far as I remember reading, for an adult to put the oversized panties on JB was to match the "Wednesday" waistband with what JB might have been wearing from her own set of undies on that Christmas Day (Wednesday) to the White's party. The theory is that the molester might have thought it important to have her found wearing the same thing someone else had thought she was previously dressed in that day, which might make them overlook, or "not notice", the molestation that had happened.

Here's another possibility. It was reported that JB often asked various people for bathroom help, so it's very possible that someone noticed and commented or had a conversation with JB about the Wednesday panties. If something later happened to that pair, the killer may have dressed JB in the next closest thing, thinking LE wouldn't notice the size. This way, (or so they thought), they wouldn't be asked to produce the 1st pair. Was the size 6 given to LE, and if so, what condition were they in?

 

[UKGuy]

Here's another possibility. It was reported that JB often asked various people for bathroom help, so it's very possible that someone noticed and commented or had a conversation with JB about the Wednesday panties. If something later happened to that pair, the killer may have dressed JB in the next closest thing, thinking LE wouldn't notice the size. This way, (or so they thought), they wouldn't be asked to produce the 1st pair. Was the size 6 given to LE, and if so, what condition were they in?

dodie20,
JonBenet could only have dressed herself in those size-12's if PR's version of events is factually correct.

In an interview PR is asked about the size-12's, e.g. paraphrasing, do you own any? PR answers YES.

PR is then told this is to establish if the intruder brought them into the house?

Later on Patsy is told no size-12 underwear was found in JonBenet's underwear drawer.

This implies that the intruder redressed JonBenet in the size-12 underwear, and left with the remaining pairs of size-12 underwear along with her worn size-6 underwear.

PR also claims not to know what underwear JonBenet wore to the White's party, also that she did not see what she was wearing when she redressed JonBenet, for bed in the longjohns.

Even if the remaining size-12's were returned, the zillion $ question is this: is there a missing pair of Wednesday size-6 underwear?


.

 

[Nom de plume]

Hey mama - glad to see someone's still up with me, here! But oh, I'm gettin' tired, so forgive me if I'm not too clear, here.

THANKS for taking the time to post the above. I really appreciate that. So here's a few questions:

1) So it is now clear to me that JONBENET TOLD Patsy that she wanted to keep the underwear AND that she told Patsy that 'she would grow into them.' Got it. But it is also now clear to me that indeed, those panties WERE un-packaged and put into a drawer IN THE BATHROOM. This is actually starting to make so much sense...

Question: Isn't it LIKELY that JONBENET would have taken those underpants and put them on herself AFTER she had possibly soiled herself that night? It would seem logical to me that HAD she soiled herself, she would have gone into her bathroom, tried to clean herself up a little and THEN pulled that underwear out and put them on? This would have happened, obviously before the events occurred which caused her death.

Also, would it not be possible if, after JonBenet had soiled herself (just speculating here) and let's say Patsy found her, got angry and whatever happened next INCLUDED the washing of JonBenet's sheets, etc., from the soiling? Hence (there's that word again), Patsy's having spent the night awake for the most part, as Steve Thomas has openly speculated.

I ask you, IS THIS POSSIBLE?

I would say it is. And I am sorry to say, but the last paragraph regarding the explanation as to why the Wednesday panties were placed onto JonBenet just doesn't work for me; doesn't make sense. There's no way that having size 12 underwear, clearly over-sized for JonBenet, would somehow obfuscate the issue as to molestation.

As Lee would say, "some ting not right.'

BAM if the size 12's were unpackaged and put in the drawer then where did they go? Why didn't LE find any size 12's? How do you account for LW later turning a package of size 12's over to LE?

You're taking PR's word for it that she took the size 12's out of the package and put them in JB's drawer, but you're discounting the fact that LE did not find any size 12's. And why would PR take something so ridiculously big out of the package and put them in the drawer in the first place? Do you think that PR intended to let JB wear them right away? Surely they would have eventually been mixed up with her size 6s. That makes no sense. Wouldn't it have been a better idea to put them away until JB grew into them, which was a long time down the road?

Another thing that doesn't make sense is presuming JB would attempt to clean herself up and change panties in the middle of the night when she was well known to call for help from ANYONE available to help clean her after she used the bathroom.

The last point you're missing is the long johns. If as you say JB wet the bed that night, changed her panties & PR washed her sheets, then how did the long johns manage to stay dry? Wet panties, wet sheets, but dry long johns in between? :waitasec:

IMO PR would never have put size 12 panties on JB under any circumstances, however a male would not have been as particular. If, as has been discussed numerous times here, the size 12's were wrapped, in the basement, ready to be mailed off, it would have been very convienent for someone to grab them to redress JB after the molestation/murder. He would know that Wednesday panties came off of her, so put new Wednesday panties back on her. How many men know what size panties a six year old wears anyway, or would even notice the size difference?

 

[UKGuy]

BAM if the size 12's were unpackaged and put in the drawer then where did they go? Why didn't LE find any size 12's? How do you account for LW later turning a package of size 12's over to LE?

You're taking PR's word for it that she took the size 12's out of the package and put them in JB's drawer, but you're discounting the fact that LE did not find any size 12's. And why would PR take something so ridiculously big out of the package and put them in the drawer in the first place? Do you think that PR intended to let JB wear them right away? Surely they would have eventually been mixed up with her size 6s. That makes no sense. Wouldn't it have been a better idea to put them away until JB grew into them, which was a long time down the road?

Another thing that doesn't make sense is presuming JB would attempt to clean herself up and change panties in the middle of the night when she was well known to call for help from ANYONE available to help clean her after she used the bathroom.

The last point you're missing is the long johns. If as you say JB wet the bed that night, changed her panties & PR washed her sheets, then how did the long johns manage to stay dry? Wet panties, wet sheets, but dry long johns in between? :waitasec:

IMO PR would never have put size 12 panties on JB under any circumstances, however a male would not have been as particular. If, as has been discussed numerous times here, the size 12's were wrapped, in the basement, ready to be mailed off, it would have been very convienent for someone to grab them to redress JB after the molestation/murder. He would know that Wednesday panties came off of her, so put new Wednesday panties back on her. How many men know what size panties a six year old wears anyway, or would even notice the size difference?

Nom de plume,
I have always thought that size-12's were the give-away, and that no way would Patsy want JonBenet dressed in those size-12's.

Given when she tells BPD that she placed the size-12's into JonBenet's underwear drawer, how come she does'nt know that they are no longer there?

This suggests that the person who redressed JonBenet in those size-12's never told Patsy that the remaining pairs had been removed.

Why so?

Obviously, this leaves JR or BR as prime suspects.



.

 

[anne11]

I've alays thoughr rhose size 12's were to be a gift and never placed in the underwear drawer, if they don't fit hats the point ( mum to 2 girls with 3 years age difference experience behind me)

 

[dodie20]

Please reread my post. You have reversed (BBM) what I said, which was that JonBenet remarked to Patsy she wanted to keep them and that she would 'grow into them'. From: http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682505/Second Floor#OversizedPanties

this was published: "On the shopping spree, which included a visit to Bloomingdales', Patsy paid $24.99 for a size 12/14 set of "bloomies" panties with the days of the week on them for her niece, a girl older than JonBenét, according to a source. The seven-panty set was identical to one JonBenét had -- only hers were a size 6. When the gals returned to Boulder from their trip, Patsy was going to send the larger panties to her niece, but JonBenét wanted to keep them, an insider confides. "JonBenét and her mom were in her room when Patsy pulled out the pack of size 12 panties," says the insider. "An excited JonBenét told her mom, 'Don't send those to Aunt Polly -- I want them, I want them!' "When Patsy answered, 'But they are much too big for you,' JonBenét said, 'That's OK, Mom, I'll grow into them.' So Patsy opened the packages and put them into a bathroom drawer next to JonBenét's identical set of size 6 panties." Patsy kept the panties in a drawer in the bathroom -- instead of in the bedroom for convenience sake, says a source, because JonBenét often had to be washed and changed at night due to her frequent bed-wetting. But the source insists that JonBenét had never worn the larger briefs until the night of her death!"

Thanks for requesting the source, because in reading again, I see it is commented that Patsy did open the package and put them into the drawer.
So, it makes it possible JB could have dressed herself. But then, we have to ask why it was reported no others were found by BPD in that drawer, and later Wood turned over the package with the remaining pairs in it that the R's claimed they found when they were going through items after their move to Georgia. Such a dilemma, even after all these years.

The most repeated reason on the Forum, as far as I remember reading, for an adult to put the oversized panties on JB was to match the "Wednesday" waistband with what JB might have been wearing from her own set of undies on that Christmas Day (Wednesday) to the White's party. The theory is that the molester might have thought it important to have her found wearing the same thing someone else had thought she was previously dressed in that day, which might make them overlook, or "not notice", the molestation that had happened.

I've always heard that the panties were sized 12, but a 12/14 would be an even bigger difference. This is almost an adult size, and as a matter of fact, my 24 yr old sometimes buys size 14 in panties and shirts. And I don't believe PR would have given in to JB on this, (if she really even begged for the panties). First of all, they were bought as a gift, and what parent lets her children take other people's 'gifts? Did BR also beg for and then take gifts that were bought for other people? Did PR ever say what she replaced the gift with? Because if she let JB keep them, the girl they were intended for, would have needed another gift. Another reason I don't believe that PR gave in to JB, because JB wouldn't 't have gotten any use out of them. It would be different if they were a sized 6 or 8, but a 12/14? please. I can tell from JB's pictures that she wore clothes that fit.

 

[DeeDee249]

Hey mama - glad to see someone's still up with me, here! But oh, I'm gettin' tired, so forgive me if I'm not too clear, here.

THANKS for taking the time to post the above. I really appreciate that. So here's a few questions:

1) So it is now clear to me that JONBENET TOLD Patsy that she wanted to keep the underwear AND that she told Patsy that 'she would grow into them.' Got it. But it is also now clear to me that indeed, those panties WERE un-packaged and put into a drawer IN THE BATHROOM. This is actually starting to make so much sense...

Question: Isn't it LIKELY that JONBENET would have taken those underpants and put them on herself AFTER she had possibly soiled herself that night? It would seem logical to me that HAD she soiled herself, she would have gone into her bathroom, tried to clean herself up a little and THEN pulled that underwear out and put them on? This would have happened, obviously before the events occurred which caused her death.

Also, would it not be possible if, after JonBenet had soiled herself (just speculating here) and let's say Patsy found her, got angry and whatever happened next INCLUDED the washing of JonBenet's sheets, etc., from the soiling? Hence (there's that word again), Patsy's having spent the night awake for the most part, as Steve Thomas has openly speculated.

I ask you, IS THIS POSSIBLE?

I would say it is. And I am sorry to say, but the last paragraph regarding the explanation as to why the Wednesday panties were placed onto JonBenet just doesn't work for me; doesn't make sense. There's no way that having size 12 underwear, clearly over-sized for JonBenet, would somehow obfuscate the issue as to molestation.

As Lee would say, "some ting not right.'

6-year olds don't really say things like "I'll grow into them". The panties were never put in her drawer. Police removed EVERY single pair and there were NO other size 12s in there. If the pack had been opened and put in the drawer, the other 6 pairs would be there. It was very upsetting to read the police interview with Patsy where she talks about the panties and the police never asked her why the other pairs were not in the drawer. They just dropped the ball - again.
Also- 5 years later the Rs sent the remaining pairs of the set to LE via their attorneys. They were still in the package.

 

[dodie20]

Thinking about this topic has made me mad, and I mean really mad. Somebody thought they were being so smart when they exchanged those panties. Talk about conniving and self preservation. The Rs have never explained the size 12s, or the pineapple, or the prior abuse. Do they really expect LE to believe an intruder fed JB pineapple, changed her underwear, and caused the prior abuse? Oops, they said there wasn't any abuse, so the intruder didn't do that. How could they know there wasn't prior abuse? They weren't with JB, 24-7, and the only thing they COULD know for sure, is that she DID suffer from abuse because they were the ones inflicting it! You'd think they would want to know who did this so they could find the killer. If they were innocent, they would have been all over this, narrowing down suspects. And they claimed they cooperated, yeah right.

 

[UKGuy]

Thinking about this topic has made me mad, and I mean really mad. Somebody thought they were being so smart when they exchanged those panties. Talk about conniving and self preservation. The Rs have never explained the size 12s, or the pineapple, or the prior abuse. Do they really expect LE to believe an intruder fed JB pineapple, changed her underwear, and caused the prior abuse? Oops, they said there wasn't any abuse, so the intruder didn't do that. How could they know there wasn't prior abuse? They weren't with JB, 24-7, and the only thing they COULD know for sure, is that she DID suffer from abuse because they were the ones inflicting it! You'd think they would want to know who did this so they could find the killer. If they were innocent, they would have been all over this, narrowing down suspects. And they claimed they cooperated, yeah right.

dodie20,
ITA. The size-12's were the R's biggest mistake, and yet, still nobody picked them up on it.

For all Steve Thomas' talk and his book, this absence of follow up on major aspects of the case, particularly during interviews, has me thinking these days that it may have been deliberate.

A good example is the Barbie Doll, mentioned during an interview when Patsy identifies it, then total silence on the subject.

I formed the opinion a while back that BDI was the least inconsistent theory, and that the distinct lack of enthusiasm to follow up leads by BPD, was down to the BDI factor and age restrictions.

Yet we learn that the GJ indicted the R's and that this decision was supressed, so maybe there was a full blown conspiracy attempting to bury the case using the R's money and influence?

.

 

[midwest mama]

dodie20,
ITA. The size-12's were the R's biggest mistake, and yet, still nobody picked them up on it.

For all Steve Thomas' talk and his book, this absence of follow up on major aspects of the case, particularly during interviews, has me thinking these days that it may have been deliberate.

A good example is the Barbie Doll, mentioned during an interview when Patsy identifies it, then total silence on the subject.

I formed the opinion a while back that BDI was the least inconsistent theory, and that the distinct lack of enthusiasm to follow up leads by BPD, was down to the BDI factor and age restrictions.

Yet we learn that the GJ indicted the R's and that this decision was supressed, so maybe there was a full blown conspiracy attempting to bury the case using the R's money and influence?

.

Reluctantly I post this site address: http://www.apfn.org/apfn/ramsey.htm

WARNING - It is a long article, and contains a lot of grisly conspiracy theory information and comments that most will find disgusting, infuriating, and totally crazy. Some of it did just that to me.

I'm not sure I should have read through it myself, but read I did. And now I have no option but to consider just how entwined the entire Ramsey family might have been in an unthinkable situation the night JonBenet died. uke:

 

[UKGuy]

Reluctantly I post this site address: http://www.apfn.org/apfn/ramsey.htm

WARNING - It is a long article, and contains a lot of grisly conspiracy theory information and comments that most will find disgusting, infuriating, and totally crazy. Some of it did just that to me.

I'm not sure I should have read through it myself, but read I did. And now I have no option but to consider just how entwined the entire Ramsey family might have been in an unthinkable situation the night JonBenet died. uke:

midwest mama,
I have read many similar outlines of conspiracy and collusion. The vast majority are scurrilous and reprehensible. They afford the Ramsey's no sense of defense.

The vast majority of WS posters can differentiate between hyperbolea and nonsense,

.

 

[madeleine]

(B) John Ramsey said (about Karr) "He was so abused and vilified and convicted in the media that I started to feel sorry for the guy, which is a bizarre feeling," Ramsey says. "Having been through what we went through, I was gonna be the last guy that leaped out there and said, 'Aha! This is the guy!'” If you just potentially laid your eyes on someone who you believed might have killed your daughter -- do you honestly think you'd feel sorry for the killer because the media harassed and accused him -- after he made a public confession? I think not. I know not! A true victim would be mad, furious, hoping for justice -- but would never feel sorry for the criminal --especially a criminal who could have killed his daughter and who confessed! This statement by John Ramsey is completely out of context and place and displays the Ramsey's guilt in a glaring fashion. It's inconsistent, out of place, and definitely out of character for an innocent man. It is consistent with a man who knows who killed his daughter -- and knows the killer isn't running around out in the world somewhere. Then and only then would someone feel sympathy for Karr.

I agree with this part

 

[madeleine]

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlin...-unsolved-case-is-dead-killer-still-at-large/

“He was arrested, and we were, I guess, hopeful, but not — we were a little skeptical,” Ramsey recalled. “What I realized was that this is going to be difficult. He didn’t look like a killer. He looked like a nice guy. He was a teacher in an elementary school. I thought, ‘Boy, that’s not what I would have expected.’ I expected a monster.”

BS

JR always does this annoying thing.....he always uses terms like monster,creature,evil ....we're nice loving parents,a monster did it,nice parents can't be monsters,religious parents can't be monsters....he's very manipulative

 

[DeDee]

It was years later when they turned them in. There was no reason to at that time, so, did Patsy talk John into turning them in? John talk Patsy into it? Why didn't their law team stop it? What were they trying to accomplish?

I would really like to know when Patsy found out about her cancer. This has been on my mind now for hours. The implication for turning in the undies is much more negative than if they had never showed up!

Why didn't their law team stop it?

The R attorneys held the pckg of size 12s for a while before they turned them into the DAs office.

 

[Tawny]

The R attorneys held the pckg of size 12s for a while before they turned them into the DAs office.

Patsy "found" them 5 years later while going through boxes in Atlanta.

 

[andreww]

I'd love to know why the package was not taken as evidence on the initial police search? Did they simply not see the importance of them? Did they not find them? Or were they simply not in the house? I'm sure that team Ramsey figured that after 5 years, any evidentiary value was gone and that providing them to LE would again show how the Ramsey's were cooperating with LE lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[carolbell]

The young Mother, I believe her last name was Routier, comes to mind. Her children were killed, some say by her, others say intruder. Anyway, she was feeling bad because it was one sons birthday or day had passed. She felt bad, and decided to give him a birthday party, complete with silly string,over his grave. It may have been the same, P.R. might have been feeling bad because she would nver get to wear those pants she wanted to wear. Strange, but the mind can make you think of the weirdest things

Thanks for the Welcome, midwest mama!

I used to post at this forum YEARS ago, so I'm just now getting back up-to-snuff with some of this stuff. Wow - it's a lot! So here's a couple of questions, if you don't mind answering them for me.

1) You state that 'Patsy' TOLD JonBenet she would 'grow into' these panties as a reason to keep them. But didn't Patsy state in a Q&A session with attorneys and police in attendance that she'd purchased those panties for her niece, Jenny? So WHEN did she make this statement as to JonBenet's growing into them? Do we have a source?

2) Why in the heck would someone feel the need to put size 12 panties on JonBenet when she had other underwear which could have been used? Doesn't make sense.

So - another question comes to mind.

COULD JonBenet have awakened that night (if she was ever really asleep when they came home in the first place), and, after she thought both her parents were in bed, decided for some strange childish reason, after soiling herself, to rip into that package of panties herself? Maybe she just REALLY wanted to wear those panties...

It just does not make any sense whatsoever that an adult would put on these huge sized panties (for JonBenet). For what purpose? The only thing that seems to be logical is that a child would have done this and then for whatever reason, an adult felt the need to cover-up this panties issue.

Has anyone on the Forum come up with a plausible explanation as to why these panties were put on JonBenet by an adult?