The "war",what was it all about

[UKGuy]

This is a multi-crime scene area. This crime had six parts- molestation, head bash, strangulation, death, staging the body and crime scene and writing the note to point to an intruder. The separate elements took place in several areas, and the much-too-quick release of the house to the family meant that there had to be a lot of evidence that was not only missed, but never even searched for.
The truth is that it was never determined where JB actually, died, where the head bash took place, etc. We may assume what we can- some things seem likely- the note written right there in the location where the pen and paper were kept, using the flashlight, also kept in the area and found there as well. The alleged urine stains on the basement carpet in an area near the wineceller suggest death took place there...the small amounts of blood on her pillowcase suggest a head bash in her room, where it is possible the pink nightie may have picked up some blood droplets, had it been on the bed or on JB when the head bash occurred. The wood splinters matching the broken paintbrush used to make the handle of the garrote were right next to the paint tote, in the basement near the wineceller.
There were fragments of fake green garland in her hair. There was a fake green garland wrapped around the railing of the spiral stairs, but that does not necessarily mean she was carried down the stairs dead or unconscious, as the same fake garland was present in the basement, especially the wineceller, where ll the garland as well as artificial trees, were stored. The garland was never tested, as far as we know, to see if it matched the garland from the stairs or the fake trees.
We just don't know what was done where. And the house was "sold" after the Rs returned to Atlanta, whereupon all the carpets were pulled up and the walls whitewashed.

DeeDee249,

This is a multi-crime scene area.

Sure and Columbo would ask why would anyone place a dead child into a windowless room?

Was her death an accident? In the summer of 1994, Burke accidentally hit JonBenét in the left cheek with a golf club. Patsy took JonBenét to a plastic surgeon who said no surgery was required.

There is no sign of struggle in the breakfast bar, in fact there was forensic evidence left there that contradicts some of the Ramsey claims.

I reckon the R's hid the body, shouted kidnap, relocated Burke, and intended to fly away ASAP. That was their plan, but lea ineptitude meant they had to revise their plans.

.

 

[momof4ws]

Did any of you posters ever read Mindhunter? If so, are there any elements of the staging that is taken from any chapters in the book? I may have to read it myself but am feeling kinda lazy.

 

[madeleine]

Did any of you posters ever read Mindhunter? If so, are there any elements of the staging that is taken from any chapters in the book? I may have to read it myself but am feeling kinda lazy.

7NEWS has
confirmed it involves a book by a well-known FBI profiler John Douglas.
The book is called Mindhunter. 7NEWS has confirmed that investigators
discovered the book in the Ramsey's bedroom. Sources tell us one of the
parents was reading it, but we don't know which one. The Ramsey's have
been questioned about it. The book describes many of the cases Douglas
worked on while he was at the F.B.I. Investigators are particularly
interested in a chapter that explains how the FBI helped catch Larry
Gene Bell, who was convicted and sentenced to death for kidnapping and
killing two girls in South Carolina in 1985. Experts say there are
several similarities between the case described in that chapter and the
Ramsey case. While the book doesn't mean anything by itself, when you
put it together with all the other details of the murder, it's an
important piece of information. We tried to contact the Ramsey's lawyers
about this, but they did not return our call. John and Patsy Ramsey have
said repeatedly they did not have anything to do with the death of their
daughter.


http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-mindhunter.htm


---------------------------



http://eotd.wordpress.com/2008/10/04...rry-gene-bell/


Larry Gene Bell



Today is given over to one particularly unsavoury character, who was convinced he was Jesus Christ up to the day he died.

His name is Larry Gene Bell and the American was sent to his death for murdering the sister of a former beauty queen hailing from South Carolina, among others.

28 days later

His evil activities spanned a mere 28 days and in that time, he did enough to earn the lurid title of serial killer in many people’s eyes. He would kidnap his intended prey, then rape them and ultimately kill them by suffocating them.



----------------------------


1 MIKE KANE: Okay. What about "Mind
2 Hunter", John Douglas's book was there in the
3 house, had you purchased that?4 JOHN RAMSEY: No. It was there in
5 '96? Interesting.
6 MIKE KANE: Was it interesting?
7 JOHN RAMSEY: I never never heard
8 of John Douglas or that book before.
9 MIKE KANE: So you never read that?
10 JOHN RAMSEY: No. I bought one of
11 his books the next summer, his newer book.


1 How about the book Mind?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
3 TOM HANEY: Do you recall that? Do you
4 recall seeing it around the house?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Huh-uh.
6 TOM HANEY: You were not reading.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
8 TOM HANEY: It is a book by John Douglas.
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
10 TOM HANEY: Do you know who he is?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: John Douglas I know.


---------------------


PETER BOYLES: "We'll talk about the police interview and we'll talk about the books by the bed. One of the stories we broke was about John Douglas' book Mindhunter being seen in the crime scene photos. You know a little bit about books by the Ramseys beds..."

LINDA WILCOX: "Well, they each had a pile of books in the corner by the bed. Even though they had nightstands. Originally the nightstands weren't there until they redid the upstairs. And even afterwards, they tended to just throw the books there. So, I kind of knew who read what. So, Patsy's side had things like, you know poems for women and not really what I would consider true trash-like Harlequin romances, but more like Mary Higgins Clark, woman novels. Some of them, I had even read.

John's side of the bed was usually some kind of suspense-thriller. He tended to buy books by, what I call, by the numbers, I mean whatever's number 1 on the bestseller lists. Occasionally it would be something like the 7 habits of successful people, or financial things or even a (didn't hear) occasionally. But, generally it was some kind of suspense novel."

-------------------

1998-08-04: Enquirer (Week of August 4, 1998):
Police reveal 'murder manual' found in mom & dad's bedroom

In a dramatic development in the JonBenet Ramsey murder case, police found a "hot-to murder manual" in the bedroom of the little beauty queen's parents!

The true-crime book describes a 1985 murder with amazing similarities to the brutal killing of JonBenet, who would have turned 8 on August 6.

And incredibly, it was written by John Douglas, former head of the FBI's behavioral science unit - and one of the first experts hired by JonBenet's father John after he and wife Patsy set up their own investigation team.

"The book was among several found during a search of John and Patsy's bedroom after JohBenet's body was discovered in the basement," said a source close to the case. "One of the investigators recently read through it in detail and was stunned at what he saw in one chapter.

"For someone planning a murder or staging its aftermath, it could amount to a how-to manual."

The book "Mind Hunter," was published in 1995, the year before JonBenet was murdered.

It describes the case of Larry Gene Bell, who abducted and murdered high school senior Shari Faye Smith and a 9-year-old girl near Columbia, S.C.

And Douglas, who helped solve the killings, lists circumstances in the case that were later eerily echoed in the JonBenet murder:

* After snatching Shari, the killer called her mother. His first words to her were, "Listen carefully." In the JonBenet case, the ransom note - which cops believe was written by Patsy Ramsey - starts with the words, "Listen carefully!"

* Shari was suffocated with duct tape, which was later pulled from her mouth and nose. When John Ramsey found his daughter's body he ripped duct tape from her mouth.

* Before she was killed Shari wrote a "last will and testament" to her family on a legal pad. The fake JonBenet ransom note was written on a yellow legal pad.

* Shari's killer collected *advertiser censored* featuring bondage. JonBenet's hands had been bound with cord before she was murdered.

* Shari's sister Dawn later won the Miss South Carolina beauty title and went on to finish as a runner-up in the Miss America pageant. Patsy Ramsey is a former Miss West Virginia - and she also competed for the Miss America title.

Both John and Patsy were questioned about the book in June, and they dismissed the similarities between the book and JonBenet's murder as sheer coincidence, The Enquirer has learned.

But Gregg McCrary - Douglas' fellow FBI profiler who was also approached to work for the Ramseys and turned them down - declared: "The longer you are in my business, the less you believe in coincidences.

"I believe the JonBenet crime scene was staged. Many times when people stage a crime scene it's based on their perception of what a real criminal would do - and they get that information from books or movies.

"The grand jury will have to weight whether these are a series of coincidences - or something else.

---------------------

 

[txsvicki]

The o track injury and possible golf club as weapon could show that the whole thi ng took place in the basement. Also: who allows a six year old to play with a golf club when a toddler is near! These people did not watch those kids very well imo. Many apologies if any ws'ers have let kids play with clubs. If so., they were probably better supervised.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

The o track injury and possible golf club as weapon could show that the whole thi ng took place in the basement. Also: who allows a six year old to play with a golf club when a toddler is near! These people did not watch those kids very well imo. Many apologies if any ws'ers have let kids play with clubs. If so., they were probably better supervised.

James Kolar said the ceiling in the basement were low. Most ceilings are eight feet. Even at that wouldn't there be marks on the ceiling from someone raising the golf club over their head and bring in it down on the back of her skull? It didn't look like she had been hit by the side of the club.

In the autopsy was it ever said that JonBenet look like she hadn't had a bath in several days? On Monday the 23rd, LHP said that JonBenet and Pasty had a fight over what dress Pasty wanted her to wear for the gingerbread house party and I wonder if that was the last time she had a bath. That was also the last time LHP changed JonBenet sheets. I wonder if she noticed any poop smeared on the box Pasty said JonBenet used to put her candy in? Was the poop on the inside or outside of the box? Why didn't those kid flush the potty?

Did LE ever get the red outfit that Pasty said she was rinsing out at the sink by the washer and dryer outside of JonBenet bedroom that night? I think that is what she said at first. Pasty said she stayed up after JonBenet was in bed and was working on a red outfit that JonBenet had worn at an appearance at a mall a few days before and got a few spots on it. Or was that the red turtle neck in a ball in the bathroom?

How in the hell could most of LE not look at the cobwebs in that window and see that nobody had entered or left by it?

Did John have any clubs in the golf bag that he wanted out of the house? If so, whose clubs were thrown in a closet and left behind?

We went to Myrtle Beach a few years ago and called to rent a car. They told my husband that it was "golf season" and didn't have any. My husband said "golf season? Heck we play golf year round in Texas. " So do they play gold year round in Georgia?

 

[DeeDee249]

James Kolar said the ceiling in the basement were low. Most ceilings are eight feet. Even at that wouldn't there be marks on the ceiling from someone raising the golf club over their head and bring in it down on the back of her skull? It didn't look like she had been hit by the side of the club.

In the autopsy was it ever said that JonBenet look like she hadn't had a bath in several days? On Monday the 23rd, LHP said that JonBenet and Pasty had a fight over what dress Pasty wanted her to wear for the gingerbread house party and I wonder if that was the last time she had a bath. That was also the last time LHP changed JonBenet sheets. I wonder if she noticed any poop smeared on the box Pasty said JonBenet used to put her candy in? Was the poop on the inside or outside of the box? Why didn't those kid flush the potty?

Did LE ever get the red outfit that Pasty said she was rinsing out at the sink by the washer and dryer outside of JonBenet bedroom that night? I think that is what she said at first. Pasty said she stayed up after JonBenet was in bed and was working on a red outfit that JonBenet had worn at an appearance at a mall a few days before and got a few spots on it. Or was that the red turtle neck in a ball in the bathroom?

How in the hell could most of LE not look at the cobwebs in that window and see that nobody had entered or left by it?

Did John have any clubs in the golf bag that he wanted out of the house? If so, whose clubs were thrown in a closet and left behind?

We went to Myrtle Beach a few years ago and called to rent a car. They told my husband that it was "golf season" and didn't have any. My husband said "golf season? Heck we play golf year round in Texas. " So do they play gold year round in Georgia?

Doesn't matter that they play golf year round in Georgia. They do. This was his murdered little girl's FUNERAL. Why would he have golf (and his clubs) on his mind at ALL?
As for the red garments- there has long been confusion between the two. JB wore a red spandex jumpsuit (like a dance leotard) for a performance at a Mall with some of her little friends not long before. Patsy said that she noticed as she was gathering things for the trip that this outfit was soiled and she made a mental note to wash it when she got back.
This jumpsuit is not the same as the red turtleneck. The red turtleneck was what Patsy wanted her to wear to the White's and they fought about it, with JB wearing the white shirt she was found in. Photos taken at the White's prove which shirt she wore to the party, but she may have worn the red shirt at some other time that day. I do not believe Patsy was ever really questioned in detail about why that red turtleneck was found balled up by the sink (or in the sink - I have read both) if she didn't wear it that day.
As for the poop- I mean, couldn't they SMELL feces-covered ANYTHING in the room? There was poop in a pair of black child's pants too. Patsy said those were JB's "play pants" when shown a photo of them.
Patsy was asked about JB's bathing. She said she couldn't recall the last time she had bathed, but was certain she hadn't bathed Christmas Day.

 

[UKGuy]

Doesn't matter that they play golf year round in Georgia. They do. This was his murdered little girl's FUNERAL. Why would he have golf (and his clubs) on his mind at ALL?
As for the red garments- there has long been confusion between the two. JB wore a red spandex jumpsuit (like a dance leotard) for a performance at a Mall with some of her little friends not long before. Patsy said that she noticed as she was gathering things for the trip that this outfit was soiled and she made a mental note to wash it when she got back.
This jumpsuit is not the same as the red turtleneck. The red turtleneck was what Patsy wanted her to wear to the White's and they fought about it, with JB wearing the white shirt she was found in. Photos taken at the White's prove which shirt she wore to the party, but she may have worn the red shirt at some other time that day. I do not believe Patsy was ever really questioned in detail about why that red turtleneck was found balled up by the sink (or in the sink - I have read both) if she didn't wear it that day.
As for the poop- I mean, couldn't they SMELL feces-covered ANYTHING in the room? There was poop in a pair of black child's pants too. Patsy said those were JB's "play pants" when shown a photo of them.
Patsy was asked about JB's bathing. She said she couldn't recall the last time she had bathed, but was certain she hadn't bathed Christmas Day.

DeeDee249,
From memory found balled up, wet, on the counter in her bathroom.

There was poop in a pair of black child's pants too. Patsy said those were JB's "play pants" when shown a photo of them.

Poo can be dna checked. Ive seen documentaries where they have checked Mammoth poo, to determine what they were eating and where!

So could there be some association between poo on the box of candy and poo in those black pants?

Patsy was asked about JB's bathing. She said she couldn't recall the last time she had bathed, but was certain she hadn't bathed Christmas Day.

Would the autopsy photos reflect this?

Seems to me if you are going to a party in nice clothes, then a shower or bath is in order, particularly if JonBenet dumped those black pants that afternoon, on returning from playing outdoors on her bike, e.g. she was obviously not wearing those pajama bottoms!


.

 

[Charterhouse]

One of the first questions I wanted to ask was about Fleet White. I was wondering if you all had come to some kind of concensus regarding what went on between John Ramsey and Fleet White. After reading this thread, I think not. I haven't either.

I just wonder what made two such good friends part company the way that they did. I have a million questions but this was one that was never clear to me in any way.

Does anyone have any new thoughts on this? Do you think FW will ever talk?

 

[DeeDee249]

One of the first questions I wanted to ask was about Fleet White. I was wondering if you all had come to some kind of concensus regarding what went on between John Ramsey and Fleet White. After reading this thread, I think not. I haven't either.

I just wonder what made two such good friends part company the way that they did. I have a million questions but this was one that was never clear to me in any way.

Does anyone have any new thoughts on this? Do you think FW will ever talk?

On the contrary, most RDI do have an opinion of what went on between FW and JR, and these threads go back YEARS, so you can't base it on what you are reading now in one thread. I believe (and I don't think I am alone) that FW was upset with JR for not telling the truth about what happened that night. I believe FW knew or suspected that the Rs knew exactly what happened to their daughter, and he was upset that the Rs did not cooperate with police. FW was a good friend of the Rs at one point, trusted enough that JR sent his son to FW's house that morning. Days later, FW was heard arguing with JR at JR's brother's home. The argument became so heated that FW was asked to leave the house.
FW was right behind JR as they searched the house at Detective Arndt's request. He saw JB's body in situ in the wineceller and saw what JR did when he found her. He knows the truth about her hands not really being bound as JR claimed.
I do not think he will talk anytime soon, if at all. After he and JR became estranged, the Rs began veiled threats and outright comments insinuating that both FW and his wife may have been involved in JB's death. I am sure the R "family lawyers" (aka LW) will very quickly file a lawsuit against FW if he ever attempts to tell what he knows or suspects. If this case went to trial, THEN FW could have his say - on the witness stand.

 

[Linda7NJ]

On the contrary, most RDI do have an opinion of what went on between FW and JR, and these threads go back YEARS, so you can't base it on what you are reading now in one thread. I believe (and I don't think I am alone) that FW was upset with JR for not telling the truth about what happened that night. I believe FW knew or suspected that the Rs knew exactly what happened to their daughter, and he was upset that the Rs did not cooperate with police. FW was a good friend of the Rs at one point, trusted enough that JR sent his son to FW's house that morning. Days later, FW was heard arguing with JR at JR's brother's home. The argument became so heated that FW was asked to leave the house.
FW was right behind JR as they searched the house at Detective Arndt's request. He saw JB's body in situ in the wineceller and saw what JR did when he found her. He knows the truth about her hands not really being bound as JR claimed.
I do not think he will talk anytime soon, if at all. After he and JR became estranged, the Rs began veiled threats and outright comments insinuating that both FW and his wife may have been involved in JB's death. I am sure the R "family lawyers" (aka LW) will very quickly file a lawsuit against FW if he ever attempts to tell what he knows or suspects. If this case went to trial, THEN FW could have his say - on the witness stand.

In light of the new book, perhaps Burke said some things while at FWs house


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[UKGuy]

In light of the new book, perhaps Burke said some things while at FWs house


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Linda7NJ,
In this case there are some things you just cannot prove, and this is one of them.

Yet common sense suggests certain stuff must have taken place, e.g. pineapple snack.

For me Fleet White and Burke had to talk about the night before, possibly not in detail, but if I had been FW, I would have enquired in some manner.

I cannot imagine BR being left to his own devices, the White's likely monitered him.

I hope FW does an interview some time soon, where he outlines what he witnessed in the R's household and any interaction between himself and BR.

FW after the three R's is the most valuable witness, since he was in the wine-cellar three times, and knows BR's demeanour before and after the discovery of JonBenet's body.

He is the only person outside of LEA whose opinion really carries weight!


.

 

[DeeDee249]

Linda7NJ,
In this case there are some things you just cannot prove, and this is one of them.

Yet common sense suggests certain stuff must have taken place, e.g. pineapple snack.

For me Fleet White and Burke had to talk about the night before, possibly not in detail, but if I had been FW, I would have enquired in some manner.

I cannot imagine BR being left to his own devices, the White's likely monitered him.

I hope FW does an interview some time soon, where he outlines what he witnessed in the R's household and any interaction between himself and BR.

FW after the three R's is the most valuable witness, since he was in the wine-cellar three times, and knows BR's demeanour before and after the discovery of JonBenet's body.

He is the only person outside of LEA whose opinion really carries weight!


.

The pineapple is a fact, so common sense has little to do with it. It was in her, she ate it, and she ate it within 2 hours of her death. The only thing we don't know is who she ate it with, if anybody. My guess is her brother. I am sure that is one of the things LE wanted to ask him about when they proffered their recent request to speak to him again, which his lawyer LW refused on his behalf.
I would imagine FW must have had something to say to BR that morning, ask him if he saw or heard anything. Again, FW has not offered that information as far as we know, though he may have told LE about his car ride with BR that morning. BR was whisked away from the house very quickly, and at that point it was still considered a kidnapping, though the FBI suspected she was dead and that her body was in the house or close by somewhere.
I don't think FW spent too much time at his house with BR, I think he left BR there with his son (and wife?) and returned to the Rs right away.
FW won't talk. I agree his statements about his time spent with BR and also with JR as they searched the house are valuable. I am sure he has been questioned by LE about these things. But- He's been threatened by the RST and LW, and the Rs also insinuated FW and his wife had something to do with it, and I am sure JR and LW have no qualms about trying to throw blame in his direction again.

 

[UKGuy]

The pineapple is a fact, so common sense has little to do with it. It was in her, she ate it, and she ate it within 2 hours of her death. The only thing we don't know is who she ate it with, if anybody. My guess is her brother. I am sure that is one of the things LE wanted to ask him about when they proffered their recent request to speak to him again, which his lawyer LW refused on his behalf.
I would imagine FW must have had something to say to BR that morning, ask him if he saw or heard anything. Again, FW has not offered that information as far as we know, though he may have told LE about his car ride with BR that morning. BR was whisked away from the house very quickly, and at that point it was still considered a kidnapping, though the FBI suspected she was dead and that her body was in the house or close by somewhere.
I don't think FW spent too much time at his house with BR, I think he left BR there with his son (and wife?) and returned to the Rs right away.
FW won't talk. I agree his statements about his time spent with BR and also with JR as they searched the house are valuable. I am sure he has been questioned by LE about these things. But- He's been threatened by the RST and LW, and the Rs also insinuated FW and his wife had something to do with it, and I am sure JR and LW have no qualms about trying to throw blame in his direction again.

DeeDee249,
Well if anyone is going to break the dam its going to be FW! I reckon things have moved on, DNA is not the gold standard it used to be, with Kolar's book now implicating Burke, FWs information regarding what he saw that morning might be critical to tipping the scales towards one theory or another.

I seriously doubt FW is concerned about litigation from LW, not only does he have deep pockets, he also has a sound legal defense, including a moral position, after all, he was there, he looked into that wine-cellar three times!

I am more inclined to accept his wife cautioned him for a quiet life.


The Ramsey's attacked Fleet White's integrity, so to aid their case, it could be Fleet White at some point might, as a swan song, decide to do an interview placing everything he knows on the table.

LW cannot sue him simply because he is a witness, he has to defame or libel someone, and as an interviewee, all the questions would be vetted for potential litigation.


.

 

[Intriguing]

shotgunhomicide,

Lots off stuff do not make sense in this case. One reason I can offer is the relocation and separation of evidence.


Well your presumption is wrong. This is why the possibility exists that JonBenet was moved. The wine-cellar was not a staged crime-scene, shall I repeat that? There was no scene fabricated so to make it appear JonBenet drew her last breath in the wine-cellar. JonBenet was simply placed into the wine-cellar out of sight, this can be its only function.

Nearly everything on JonBenet's person including the garrote, was staged, then she was wrapped in a white blanket and dumped into the wine-cellar. But the latter contained no signs of struggle, no blood spatters, no bloodied weapon, just JonBenet wrapped in a blanket, surrounded by unrelated artifacts. A staged crime-scene would display some semblance of the relationship of the scene to the victim.

So it appears JonBenet was staged for a crime-scene, but not the one in the wine-cellar. Which suggests either there was a prior staged crime-scene upstairs, which was abandonded for the Abduction Scenario, e.g. the latter is not staged, or JonBenet had been placed elsewhere in the basement. JR may have decided to relocate JonBenet including context specific evidence e.g. pink nightgown, barbie doll to the wine-cellar, since he realized something was amiss with the prior crime-scene. Think about the contents of the suitcase from the guests bedroom. There maybe evidence in the basement that has been relocated?

So we have a staged JonBenet but no staged crime-scene, just a windowless room, housing unrelated artifacts.

Now if the pink nightgown was contained in the white blanket as some suggest, then this implies that JonBenet was indeed moved from another location, with the nightgown being deliberately moved too. Remember it was bloodstained, so it never fell out the drier, the white blanket has no similar bloodstains.

That FW claims to have not seen JonBenet earlier that morning is consistent with JonBenet being moved.



Yes, entirely possible, including the default position, that FW did just miss her.


Then again why stage a body that is intended never to be found?




.

So much of that makes much sense. Why stage a body that was intended never to be found? Perhaps it was intended to be found - just not in the house. Later, after the ransom had been collected and once the body had been dumped in some nearby forest. If this were the case, perhaps the plan was for John to collect the ready cash he had on hand at the bank, drive somewhere, drop the cash and the body and speed back home to then phone the police. On the one hand, stumping up and losing $118,000 would divert attention away from the family. However, this would necessitate the involvement of a third party to swipe the cash (Fleet? The Stines?).

Another theory could be that there was hardly any staging - Burke carried out most of the injuries and redressing. He redressed in an attempt, to a childish mind, to clumsily cover his tracks and make it look like JB had simply stumbled downstairs and fallen to be discovered once he had crept back to his room? The oversized underwear seems to give that possibility the most weight, as would his comment 'where did you find her?'

If you lean towards the Burke perpetrated most of it theory, then much of the scene isn't overly sinister APART from the strangulation. That's the kicker.

 

[UKGuy]

So much of that makes much sense. Why stage a body that was intended never to be found? Perhaps it was intended to be found - just not in the house. Later, after the ransom had been collected and once the body had been dumped in some nearby forest. If this were the case, perhaps the plan was for John to collect the ready cash he had on hand at the bank, drive somewhere, drop the cash and the body and speed back home to then phone the police. On the one hand, stumping up and losing $118,000 would divert attention away from the family. However, this would necessitate the involvement of a third party to swipe the cash (Fleet? The Stines?).

Another theory could be that there was hardly any staging - Burke carried out most of the injuries and redressing. He redressed in an attempt, to a childish mind, to clumsily cover his tracks and make it look like JB had simply stumbled downstairs and fallen to be discovered once he had crept back to his room? The oversized underwear seems to give that possibility the most weight, as would his comment 'where did you find her?'

If you lean towards the Burke perpetrated most of it theory, then much of the scene isn't overly sinister APART from the strangulation. That's the kicker.

Intriguing,

Perhaps it was intended to be found - just not in the house.

Could be, something at the last minute made them decide not to dump her outdoors. One thing is certain the R's expected JonBenet to be found, and found rather quickly. When this never happened, John had to discover her.

JonBenet's person was staged to remove apparent evidence of the acute sexual assault, and its possible that the missing piece of paintbrush handle was used to injure JonBenet internally, thereby hopefully obscuring any signs of chronic abuse.

The Barbie Doll and Pink Barbie Nightgown found in the wine-cellar are likely remnants of a prior staging.

Whether its JDI or BDI after the head bash it looks as if someone cleaned JonBenet up, redressed her in whatever and placed her in her bedroom, there is blood on her pillow, so it appears she may have been staged there as some IDI scenario?

This, for whatever reason was abandonded, and the Abduction Scenario was chosen, with as much incriminating evidence, including JonBenet, being dumped, out of sight, into the wine-cellar.



.

 

[Intriguing]

Intriguing,

Could be, something at the last minute made them decide not to dump her outdoors. One thing is certain the R's expected JonBenet to be found, and found rather quickly. When this never happened, John had to discover her.

JonBenet's person was staged to remove apparent evidence of the acute sexual assault, and its possible that the missing piece of paintbrush handle was used to injure JonBenet internally, thereby hopefully obscuring any signs of chronic abuse.

The Barbie Doll and Pink Barbie Nightgown found in the wine-cellar are likely remnants of a prior staging.

Whether its JDI or BDI after the head bash it looks as if someone cleaned JonBenet up, redressed her in whatever and placed her in her bedroom, there is blood on her pillow, so it appears she may have been staged there as some IDI scenario?

This, for whatever reason was abandonded, and the Abduction Scenario was chosen, with as much incriminating evidence, including JonBenet, being dumped, out of sight, into the wine-cellar.



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Mmmm - it's baffling! I thought the sexual assault with the missing piece of paintbrush had been agreed (I am obviously making grand assumptions!). I presumed that a) because it is missing/hidden b) Burke's 'whittling' knife was discovered near the body c) as another piece (I think deliberately snapped from the other part used in the assault) was used in the fake garrotte/ligature.

Paintbrush used in first sexual assault, observed by whomever first discovered the body (PR or JR) - then subsequently used on the garrotte. Excessively violent strangulation to cover up prior strangulation. There's a hint of a logical pattern in those two processes.

I keep getting this sense (utterly redundant without demonstrating the logical steps) that Burke strangled her as well. Indeed, finishing her off. It seems like a terrible accusation but the mitigating reasoning can be applied afterwards.

Fascinating your comment that the body had to be found quickly. I never thought of that before. Certainly something changes between the final staging and Patsy's phonecall to the police.

The bedroom staging sounds highly plausible, certainly the perfect death scene a mother would want for her child. Patsy seems to be the frontrunner with the staging in the preliminary stages with John taking over towards the end.

Where do you think the body was after it was moved from the bedroom? Why was it moved from there? Was the first staging Patsy alone, frantically covering for her boy, knowing that John would demand the police were immediately involved? Two separate discoveries - first Patsy discovers Burke, then much later John discovers Patsy covering for Burke? Sounds far-fetched but gels with the underlying dynamic. Patsy's hair-brained ransom note scheme, carried out alone. John entering late stage left, immediately judges the plan to be risible, deciding to hide the body which is why none of the early searches found her. Something happens when he 'vanishes' for 90 odd minutes - he moves the body from its hiding place having received instructions via phone to stop complicating the entire situation further and just let things pan out once she is discovered....???

 

[UKGuy]

Mmmm - it's baffling! I thought the sexual assault with the missing piece of paintbrush had been agreed (I am obviously making grand assumptions!). I presumed that a) because it is missing/hidden b) Burke's 'whittling' knife was discovered near the body c) as another piece (I think deliberately snapped from the other part used in the assault) was used in the fake garrotte/ligature.

Paintbrush used in first sexual assault, observed by whomever first discovered the body (PR or JR) - then subsequently used on the garrotte. Excessively violent strangulation to cover up prior strangulation. There's a hint of a logical pattern in those two processes.

I keep getting this sense (utterly redundant without demonstrating the logical steps) that Burke strangled her as well. Indeed, finishing her off. It seems like a terrible accusation but the mitigating reasoning can be applied afterwards.

Fascinating your comment that the body had to be found quickly. I never thought of that before. Certainly something changes between the final staging and Patsy's phonecall to the police.

The bedroom staging sounds highly plausible, certainly the perfect death scene a mother would want for her child. Patsy seems to be the frontrunner with the staging in the preliminary stages with John taking over towards the end.

Where do you think the body was after it was moved from the bedroom? Why was it moved from there? Was the first staging Patsy alone, frantically covering for her boy, knowing that John would demand the police were immediately involved? Two separate discoveries - first Patsy discovers Burke, then much later John discovers Patsy covering for Burke? Sounds far-fetched but gels with the underlying dynamic. Patsy's hair-brained ransom note scheme, carried out alone. John entering late stage left, immediately judges the plan to be risible, deciding to hide the body which is why none of the early searches found her. Something happens when he 'vanishes' for 90 odd minutes - he moves the body from its hiding place having received instructions via phone to stop complicating the entire situation further and just let things pan out once she is discovered....???

Intriguing,
The complicating factor in this case is the staging. It can be, and is, confused with bona fide forensic evidence.

This is why there are so many RDI theories. When in reality there should only be three.

If you accept the above then its easy to see how particular theories can be arrived at, yet be false.

I presumed that
a) because it is missing/hidden.

b) Burke's 'whittling' knife was discovered near the body.

c) as another piece (I think deliberately snapped from the other part used in the assault) was used in the fake garrotte/ligature.

All three assumptions might be correct, but your conclusion false, because the existence of Burke's knife does not prove he was present at the staged crime-scene. Someone else, for any other reason, might have used the knife, potentially manufacturing restraints?

Paintbrush used in first sexual assault, observed by whomever first discovered the body (PR or JR) - then subsequently used on the garrotte. Excessively violent strangulation to cover up prior strangulation. There's a hint of a logical pattern in those two processes.

ITA. This is staging, plain and simple.

I keep getting this sense (utterly redundant without demonstrating the logical steps) that Burke strangled her as well. Indeed, finishing her off. It seems like a terrible accusation but the mitigating reasoning can be applied afterwards.

This is where the staging kicks in. Its hiding or masking what really took place, with you filling in with your theory.

Here is something controversial. Nearly everyone, icluding Kolar, is saying the BDI happened down in the basement.

I do not think so. Why? Because JonBenet was relocated, from the primary crime-scene to the wine-cellar, specifically to hide where it all began.

Both parents were fully involved in the staging, and depending on how you view the bloodstains on JonBenet's body and clothing, you can make assumptions about who did what when, e.g. JR wiped JonBenet down, his fibers are on her crotch, this might have preceded any redressing in the size-12's?

Patsy's fibers are embedded into the knotting of the garrot, they are on the underside of the duct-tape, placed over JonBenet's mouth, and to be found in the paint-tote, whch of course is outside of the wine-cellar. These fiber instances leave no room for doubt that they arrived upon JonBenet by chance.

There is blood from JonBenet on the Barbie Nightgown and on a pillow in her bedroom.

This suggests to me that prior to being taken down to the basement JonBenet was lying on her own bed, in her bedroom?

What transpired, depends on your theory. If its BDI, could Burke have attempted to stage JonBenet in her own bedroom, e.g. it might have all started in his bedroom?

Someone, at some point thought the best staging would be if JonBenet was found dead in her own bed, the victim of a viscious sexual assault.

For some reason this was changed, JonBenet was redressed and made to appear as if she had just been taken from her bed, and the parents version of events corroborates this.

So stuff associated with the bedroom staging was dumped into the wine-cellar along with JonBenet.

Doing all this would remove suspicious objects from her bedroom, e.g. partially opened Christmas Gifts, Barbie Nightgown, and the Barbie Doll. All of the latter play into a BDI or PDI.

So the R's have created the illusion that JonBenet has been kidnapped. Between the two versions, in theory, no extra time has been purchased. In the bedroom staging, JonBenet will be found immediately, and the R's will become prime suspects, in the second wine-cellar staging, its just the time for the canine squad or standard house search teams to find the body, which might have been half an hour or so. So the R's expected JonBenet to be found quickly in both cases.

The difference is that in the wine-cellar staging, there is no obvious sexual assault, and IDI is in your face, as promoted by Lou Smit.

So the body had to be moved so to accomodate the fact that she had been kidnapped, and to hide her from view.

Here are a few observations. JonBenet was whacked on the head and strangled, why so? Why not whack her again until she is dead?

The flashlight: Was removed from the staged bedroom crime-scene and and someone else wiped it clean. This can mean only one of two things: non-ramsey fingerprints are on the batteries, or that an R changed the batteries when they ran out half way through the night?

It could be that the head bash is part of the bedroom staging, and its failure to be visually obvious, contributed towards the decision to stage an abduction?


JonBenet's death is a sexual assault gone wrong, and the wine-cellar as a staged coverup.



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[Intriguing]

I concur with much of what you say - I think I've pushed my initial reactions to suddenly switching to BDI having read a few bits of Kolar quoted as far as they can go. I am veering into the arena of forced supposition so will go away and do some more homework as I am straining and straying into fallacy.

I still am convinced by BDI and, from what I can make out, most of the BDI's agree on some kind of ebb and flow to the evening's dynamics. A false start, change in plan, confusion etc.

The attention to the flashlight is critical yet I remain convinced that it was the murder weapon and that Burke wielded it. Indeed, the parents were surprised he had it at all as they were unsure where it usually was. A boy stealthily up to mischief in his room with a flashlight - almost a cliche. I also think (leap in logic) it had no batteries in it and that Burke had sequestered the torch before and placed batteries in it to get it working. Upon questioning he revealed how he had got it working again hence the wipe-down.

Anyhoo, I'll let you experts get on with it and continue to watch with fascination. I'm very comfortable with BDI now, so to speak, and will follow you all teasing out that terrible devil amongst all the tantalising details.

 

[otg]

I concur with much of what you say - I think I've pushed my initial reactions to suddenly switching to BDI having read a few bits of Kolar quoted as far as they can go. I am veering into the arena of forced supposition so will go away and do some more homework as I am straining and straying into fallacy.

I still am convinced by BDI and, from what I can make out, most of the BDI's agree on some kind of ebb and flow to the evening's dynamics. A false start, change in plan, confusion etc.

The attention to the flashlight is critical yet I remain convinced that it was the murder weapon and that Burke wielded it. Indeed, the parents were surprised he had it at all as they were unsure where it usually was. A boy stealthily up to mischief in his room with a flashlight - almost a cliche. I also think (leap in logic) it had no batteries in it and that Burke had sequestered the torch before and placed batteries in it to get it working. Upon questioning he revealed how he had got it working again hence the wipe-down.

Anyhoo, I'll let you experts get on with it and continue to watch with fascination. I'm very comfortable with BDI now, so to speak, and will follow you all teasing out that terrible devil amongst all the tantalising details.

Intriguing,
Ordinarily I wouldn't interfere with a person's trying to do their own homework (indeed, I have my own homework assignment going on right now as well) and trying to work it out in their own mind. But let me suggest you not get too attached to the idea of the flashlight (or torch, since I believe you are Brit :smile being the cause of the head blow. I'll go into more detail when I've finished my homework, but I really don't think that's the right assumption to start off with, and I hope you don't build too many other details around that if it is an incorrect assumption. All I'm trying to say is, don't let that become a central point of your scenario.

JMHO.

You've added a lot to the dialogue here, Intriguing, and I appreciate your efforts.
.

 

[UKGuy]

I concur with much of what you say - I think I've pushed my initial reactions to suddenly switching to BDI having read a few bits of Kolar quoted as far as they can go. I am veering into the arena of forced supposition so will go away and do some more homework as I am straining and straying into fallacy.

I still am convinced by BDI and, from what I can make out, most of the BDI's agree on some kind of ebb and flow to the evening's dynamics. A false start, change in plan, confusion etc.

The attention to the flashlight is critical yet I remain convinced that it was the murder weapon and that Burke wielded it. Indeed, the parents were surprised he had it at all as they were unsure where it usually was. A boy stealthily up to mischief in his room with a flashlight - almost a cliche. I also think (leap in logic) it had no batteries in it and that Burke had sequestered the torch before and placed batteries in it to get it working. Upon questioning he revealed how he had got it working again hence the wipe-down.

Anyhoo, I'll let you experts get on with it and continue to watch with fascination. I'm very comfortable with BDI now, so to speak, and will follow you all teasing out that terrible devil amongst all the tantalising details.

Intriguing,
BDI is the most consistent theory out there. So please continue to contribute, you might discover the smoking gun, who knows.

The flashlight played some role, whether it was used for staging or to whack JonBenet in fear or anger, is an open question. That it was wiped down and placed on open view in the kitchen is curious. As if that was meant to be staging too?

Once you read Kolar's book I'm certain he will flesh out the BDI in more detail.



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