TN TN - Kathy Jones, 12, Nashville, 29 Nov 1969 #2

[nerosleuth]

I have been reading about places in the area and there were a few places that sold food very near KK (on down Thompson Lane).

The hotdog place might be a possibility. She had a whole dollar, that would buy a lot more than a doughnut in 1969 especially for a 12 year old girl. What if, after her hike, she was just too hungry for only KK and never even went there?

The possibility does exist that Kathy may have never gone to Krispy Kreme that night.

With that in mind, I was thinking about other possible places where Kathy could have gone where preteens and teens congregated back then in that area.

Were there any soda fountains, burger stands, or pizza parlors? Was there a bowling alley or perhaps an indoor arcade that had pinball machines?

While a whole dollar could have been enough for Kathy at a soda fountain or a burger stand, it likely wouldn’t be enough at a pizza parlor.

But what if Kathy was to meet a friend somewhere before going to the roller skating rink that night? Where could she have gone to in that area?

I’m thinking it had to be at a business establishment where preteens and teens were allowed, and also where a predator would go to.

 

[December]

There was a hot dog stand not far from KK. That is the closest place I know of... and it really would not have been out of her way. It was frequented by teens, from what I've heard. I think that would be the most likely place if she walked the whole way. And it is not far from skating.

 

[December]

Welcome back, Ellroy. I don't know if I can put my hands on the links right now, but when we were actively discussing Kathy's murder in 2013, I located a couple of FB groups which talked about old Nashville neighborhoods, shopping centers and the skating rink, etc. From those posts I gathered that first block off of Thompson was residential, much different than it appears on Google maps today. One or two posters on a FB group page even named off the families that resided in the first couple of blocks. True, there was that vacant lot where Kathy was found, but even though I tend to believe she was abducted from in front of the KK, I wouldn't be surprised to learn she walked to Thompson from Grandview, approaching KK from the rear.

JMO

ETA: This is a neat tool I posted on the previous thread. If you have the patience to work with it, you can see the changes to the intersection from 1951 to 2006. I'm afraid the nearest image to 1969 is 1957, though. Turn on "all roads" overlay, and zoom in once or twice. The Grandview Ave label will appear running diagonally between McCLain and SR 155, which is Thompson Ln.

http://www.historicaerials.com/aeri...1115721164052&lon=-86.7468142688424&year=1951

Having been there, IRL... I don't think so. I mean, I wasn't there to see what she did, but it would just be the most bizarre way to get there. Now, to be off to the side from the entrance, this I can see.

I have searched for hours of a photo of the old KK, and I cannot find one. (Edit, a good one)

EDIT... Oh, I see you don't think that... is there a theory like that? It HAS to be based on more modern times than even back in the day (the 90s). I can't imagine going behInd that store into Stygian darkness.

 

[December]

If she went to the hotdog stand, it sat (I think) a little further back from the road than KK.

Leaving it, one might be aligned, more or less, with the back of KK. Now, if you were going to KK, you'd go in the front. But, if you were a psycho killer scoping things out, then you'd see DARK plus vacant lot.

 

[December]

O.K., here is a theory... what if she was going to KK, but the murderer was at the hot dog stand and saw her. In the front... there would be street lights, store lights, car lights... I believe he could see her. What if he called out to her and she paused?Or, even if he didn't, it is really a fairly short distance between these two places and they were on the same side of TBR. Just a theory...

P.S., thank you Bessie for the media, links, etc. thread.

 

[msvick66]

I grew up in Nashville, so I'm familiar with this. Reading through the thread, I think it was a stranger, probably a complete stranger and possibly not someone the police have ever talked to. I think she was raped and killed in that lot and was left there the whole time. It was cold and that may have preserved her body. It was desolate and dark. I think this was just an impulsive thing. Perhaps the brutality was because Kathy tried to run, so he tied her up. Then out of fear or pain or both, she screamed. That's when he stuffed the sock and down her throat trying to silence her. Also how the blouse kind of got up there by her mouth, he was trying to silence her. The idea that he cut the sock when she choked is possible. Maybe he didn't intend to kill her, but then after all that he decided he had to. He must have been carrying a knife that he used to cut the sock and maybe some of the clothes if they were cut or to help start the tearing process. Possibly the stab was just to make sure she was dead. I guess they have looked to see if it could have been Jerome Barrett the Marcia Trimble killer (which being from Nashville is kind of hard to believe, but I guess it was). He probably just saw her walking and approached and started talking to her. Maybe he convinced her to walk with him on some ruse, and at some point showed the knife and then he took her back behind the building so he could do as he wanted. It is said that Marcia Trimble was missing some girl scout cookie money and it sounds like this person may have gone through her purse to look for money. I think the position of the body was due to the violent rape, how he was maneuvering and holding her, and he just left her that way.

I can't believe they can't find DNA on the clothing. Unless because it was winter he was wearing gloves. After the rape, he may have used her clothing to clean himself off, so it's possible if they preserved it properly there could be some DNA from that. The things that he tied tightly around her hands and neck could yield touch DNA if he wasn't wearing gloves. I guess it's a given they didn't take fingernail clippings, in case she clawed at him before he tied her hands. Could be she did and that's why he tied her hands. I think it's very possible her fighting back, trying to run and starting to scream is why he suddenly became so violent. They should check the clothing with one of those light sources, and swab every part of the items, including skates and purse, for touch dna.

Another thing I've wondered why I haven't heard that forensics do is swab the teeth. If the perp kisses the victim or if the victim bites him, there could be blood, saliva or even skin on the victims teeth. It's so sad they didn't do a full forensic processing and autopsy of the body. I can hardly believe that. They did for Marcia Trimble. If there wasn't a medical examiner, they should have petitioned the State to bring one in.

 

[bessie]

I don't know if you've read the previous thread, but Barrett was most definitely considered and cleared.

Nice post. I agree with you on some points, especially the location and the possibility of a random, unknown perpetrator. The brutality, imo, had more to do with the nature of the crime (and the beast), and very little to do with Kathy's actions.

JMO

 

[msvick66]

Of course, I wasn't trying to blame the victim. But I really think he stuffed that into her throat in a quick and desperate attempt to stop her scream. The building was up there kind of close, so he would have been worried someone could hear (whether they really could or not). Obviously, he was a brutal animal, no question about that. If he began a rape and she was alive, I think she would have cried out in pain in a reflex. What he did to her would have hurt badly. I almost hope she was unconscious or gone before he did what he did.

You also hear how often if a perp is known to the victim at all, they will cover their face with something...whatever is around. After it's done and they have killed someone they know, they can't stand to look at their face in death. He didn't do that. I think it was a total stranger.

 

[bessie]

I apologize, msvick. I knew you weren't blaming Kathy. I'm really sorry if it sounded that way. What you say makes a lot of sense. The location was such that he would have to be concerned about KJ's cries being heard.

Kathy's murder, like so many others, really gets to me, and I'm afraid my anger comes through in my posts unintentionally sometimes.

 

[December]

I understand about anger coming through in posts... I am so upset over this. I want to save Kathy so badly and I can't.

After Kathy was found, the police questioned so many people, but one thing they did was shake down cab drivers. Now, there must be a reason for that.

But, what if the cab driver only DROVE the perp? That would fit in with the Stranger theory. Maybe someone who was already planning to leave the area? Then he would be gone before the police began to look for a murderer.

There is a sighting of "Kathy" before she was found. Soon after they found Kathy, they knew that could not have been her, but beforehand it reinforced the idea that they were looking for a living girl. This bought the murderer a little more time...

 

[Sutton]

I understand about anger coming through in posts... I am so upset over this. I want to save Kathy so badly and I can't.

After Kathy was found, the police questioned so many people, but one thing they did was shake down cab drivers. Now, there must be a reason for that.

But, what if the cab driver only DROVE the perp? That would fit in with the Stranger theory. Maybe someone who was already planning to leave the area? Then he would be gone before the police began to look for a murderer.

There is a sighting of "Kathy" before she was found. Soon after they found Kathy, they knew that could not have been her, but beforehand it reinforced the idea that they were looking for a living girl. This bought the murderer a little more time...

I've never posted on Kathy's board before, but I've read every post and article available online. I live in Nashville and waited tables on Nolensville Rd. (1-2 miles from the Krispy Kreme) from 1997-2001.
I wish I had known about Kathy at that time. This area of Nashville is locally referred to as Woodbine, but some old timers refer to the area as Flat Rock. I talked to many people who would come to eat and some of them had lived in the area for 50 years. I knew 2 people who were born in the 60s and had lived there since childhood. I wonder if they knew Kathy? (They are both dead--OD and surgery complications.) I only wish I'd known about Kathy so I could have asked around.
I feel like the cab driver thing is weird. Nashville doesn't have many cabs. It's just not how people get around here unless you're a tourist/visitor. People take cabs from the airport and on Music Row. You can't hail a taxi here unless you're at the airport or on Music Row on a weekend.
I have no idea what it was Iike in the 60's. Maybe cabs were common...but I am doubtful because this is and was a lower income area. The people I knew definitely were not riding in taxis. They would walk, hitchhike, or take a bus if they didn't have a car.
So assuming there was not much taxi activity in the area, and none were driving around looking for fares, what did police have that made them interested in cab drivers? Was it a specific driver they were interested in? Or was it s tip a visitor may be involved?
JMO. If someone has had a different understanding of the time period please correct me.
I wish we knew who did this to Kathy. I believe her soul is at rest, and has been at rest since that night.
I know there are 1 or 2 other locals who have taken pictures, drawn maps, etc. thank you! I will do any local task that anyone requests...visit library, walk the route at night, etc...just can't think of anything that might provide more info.

 

[December]

I've never posted on Kathy's board before, but I've read every post and article available online. I live in Nashville and waited tables on Nolensville Rd. (1-2 miles from the Krispy Kreme) from 1997-2001.
I wish I had known about Kathy at that time. This area of Nashville is locally referred to as Woodbine, but some old timers refer to the area as Flat Rock. I talked to many people who would come to eat and some of them
had lived in the area for 50 years. I knew 2 people who were born in the 60s and had lived there since childhood. I wonder if they knew Kathy? (They are both dead--OD and surgery complications.) I only wish I'd known about Kathy so I could have asked around.
I feel like the cab driver thing is weird. Nashville doesn't have many cabs. It's just not how people get around here unless you're a tourist/visitor. People take cabs from the airport and on Music Row. You can't hail a taxi here unless you're at the airport or on Music Row on a weekend.
I have no idea what it was Iike in the 60's. Maybe cabs were common...but I am doubtful because this is and was a lower income area. The people I knew definitely were not riding in taxis. They would walk, hitchhike, or take a bus if they didn't have a car.
So assuming there was not much taxi activity in the area, and none were driving around looking for fares, what did police have that made them interested in cab drivers? Was it a specific driver they were interested in? Or was it s tip a visitor may be involved?
JMO. If someone has had a different understanding of the time period please correct me.
I wish we knew who did this to Kathy. I believe her soul is at rest, and has been at rest since that night.
I know there are 1 or 2 other locals who have taken pictures, drawn maps, etc. thank you! I will do any local task that anyone requests...visit library, walk the route at night, etc...just can't think of anything that might provide more info.

I lived in Nashville at that time. I may have eaten at the restaurant, who knows.

I don't know how common cabs were, but there were a few cab drivers who lived in the area. One down the street from Kathy (and she knew his daughter). His wife is quoted in the paper as saying something like 'he could do a lot of things, but not that'. The suspect who hasn't been named offically is (or was) a cab driver. Then, there's a third one right in the same area. Also questioned.

People who are poor do take cabs because they might not have a car. But, I don't know that they drive around looking for fares except downtown since people who are poor only take cabs if they don't have another way to get where they are going.

Also, remember, it was a holiday weekend and the newly built 100 Oaks Mall was just up the street. The area wasn't a rich area in the 60s, but better than 97-01 (IDK what it is like now). Such as when I lived in Nashville, no way in hell would I have tried making the walk Kathy did. My blood runs cold just thinking of it, but back then people thought it was somewhat safe. I say somewhat since it obviously was not safe.

Thank you for your offer. I really appreciate it.

 

[December]

I think there must have been a specific reason they questioned cab drivers. But, I don't know exactly what it is. I could see them checking those guys for info, but this sounds more intense than that. Maybe they did have a tip or something.

Because the exact area she was found... if no one who drove a cab lived there and none of the residents called a cab, then one should not be there. No one is taking any cab to the Krispy Kreme. The driver might choose to go there, but back then that'd mean going into the store and talking to people he probably knew.

 

[bessie]

Cab fares were much cheaper in the 60's than today, and people without cars used cabs to get back and forth to work, especially women who worked night shifts at restaurants and hospitals, or as telephone operators, (like one of my neighbors when I was a kid), and hotel/motels employees, too.

There were a few motels in the area, one right at Kathy's corner. Being a holiday weekend, a tourist might have caught a cab to a motel that evening. Perhaps someone reported seeing a cab pass near the KK or skating rink a couple of times, or lurking in either parking lot.

ETA: Welcome to the thread, Sutton! Good to see you here.

 

[December]

I will say a cab driver was questioned many times. At least one other was questioned several times. At least two (my family says) worked for the same company.

The police do have all the records of the questioning and re-questioning for people who are suspects and people who just had information. Unlike a lot of cold cases, this one has been extensively investigated by police. They've tried to solve it, but haven't been able to. But, I don't know if they just can't prove it in court or they don't know who did it.

Whatever specific thing had them leaning on cab drivers, I don't know. But, even newspaper accounts reveal they leaned on some of those guys pretty hard right away. They questioned hundreds of people, but ... it's just different.

They would have probably been able to tell if someone was lying or stonewalling them, so I guess that wouldn't endear that person to them either. Maybe, if there was a visitor, he was a regular visitor?

 

[Sutton]

I lived in Nashville at that time. I may have eaten at the restaurant, who knows.

The restaurant I worked at was Florida Seafood Kitchen. It is now closed down.

 

[Sutton]

I don't know how common cabs were, but there were a few cab drivers who lived in the area...

Cab fares were much cheaper in the 60's than today, and people without cars used cabs to get back and forth to work, especially women who worked night shifts at restaurants and hospitals, or as telephone operators, (like one of my neighbors when I was a kid), and hotel/motels employees, too...

RSBM. A taxi driver seemed a bit out of left field, but within the context of the above info, it completely makes sense. Especially if it was related to a tip.

 

[December]

The restaurant I worked at was Florida Seafood Kitchen. It is now closed down.

I know the place you mean.

 

[Tulessa]

Keeping you in my thoughts December.

 

[December]

Keeping you in my thoughts December.

Thank you, Tulessa