Transgenders express sex change regret...

[Nova]

K_Z, I was 6'4" years before I reached 18. My nephew is 6'9"! I'm very glad neither us (at least so far) has wanted to transition to the opposite sex. Talk about your ATTACK OF THE 50-FOOT WOMAN!

I'm not going to mention names, but another poster here shared with me the process her daughter was undergoing. (The daughter was born without either male or female genitalia. The mother waited until the kid was sure who she was and then let her decide for herself.) Yes, there is risk, but, as you know, there is also risk in delaying treatment.

My point here is that the daughter had exactly the sort of committee you recommend (including a psychotherapist).

When you write that your "gut reaction" is to leave well enough alone, I hear the instinctive conservatism (I mean the word in its psychological sense; I'm not talking about how you vote) I was discussing above. I think most of us have the same gut reaction, and yet most of those who really know and have experienced teen therapy seem to feel otherwise.

Obviously, you have expertise with which I cannot begin to compete, but you were speaking of your "gut reaction", not your formal training or experience. Feel free to tell me what I am missing. But when I imagine my life as a 6'4" woman with men's size 13 shoes, I doubt I'd be very happy, and particularly not during my teen years. I realize there are beautiful women who are that height, but I doubt I would have been among them.

 

[mmmagique]

People have often mistaken her for a boy while she was growing up. I thought she would be a tomboy and perhaps identify as lesbian. It turns out that she is still attracted to boys, but feels that she is one (inside) as well. I don't know where this all will go. She sees her regular doctor today, so I am going to have her talk to her as well.

This is not something she has taken lightly, and I won't either. I understand the arguments on both sides.

This is not an all of a sudden she thinks she wants to be a boy though. It's more like it's how she's felt for several years, and has been hiding it. She couldn't hide it any longer.

The suicide rate for transgender people are among the highest, so I really want to help her (whatever that will mean in the future) and make sure she feels accepted for herself. (or himself) I'm kind of flying blind here myself.

 

[Nova]

I doubt the transgenders who commit suicide have mothers like you, mmmagique. I don't have stats, but I imagine they are young people who feel trapped in the wrong body and so alone they can't discuss it with anybody.

I'm glad your son (first step: use the sex the subject prefers) will never be in that situation.

P.S. As I'm sure you've read, transsexuality doesn't necessarily have anything to do with sexual orientation. I don't pretend to understand the mechanics, but lots of even post-op individuals continue to date members of the same sex they dated before. You may end up with a gay son and I'm here to tell you that isn't such a bad thing to be. LOL.

 

[Gardenlady]

My teenagers have a close friend who is transgender (mtf), she is almost 18 now. For several years, while she still identified as male, she thought she was just flamboyantly gay and into drag lol (and she did it FANTASTICALLY - she was also a typical theater kid, wonderful voice and performance skills, took part in school and community/regional theater, still does. But damn she did a MEAN Lady Gaga!!) Later she came to realize that it wasn't that she was a gay young man interested in drag and cross-dressing, but truly identified as female. And I have to say, that knowing her from the time she was living as a little second grade boy, you could just always *tell* that she identified differently. The problem was always her father, a very conservative, stereotypically manly-man, who was embarrassed by his then-son's love of performing arts, and non-interest in things like hunting and Boy Scouts, which he kept trying to get him into. The saddest thing I remember is the dad yelling at her (then him) when she cried after not placing in the scouts pinewood derby, back in second or third grade (so I guess webelos?) Poor kid had no interest in model cars or scouts but tried so hard for dad's sake, and broke down when she didn't place. Dad yelled at her to stop crying, man up, got in the car after and sped off, apparently embarrassed that his son was crying. My husband and I were horrified.

Years later, dad has calmed down a bit now, knows what's going on, and all are in therapy (parents ended up divorcing. Thankfully mom has always been super supportive of her). I don't think dad accepts 100%. And I don't think he respects her decisions fully (I've noticed him refer to her as "my child", instead of "my daughter", or "she", her preferred pronoun, or her new female name). But the anger and frustration at least seem to have abated somewhat. Or at least now the anger an distraction is due to blended family and regular old teen issues

My long rambling point - this is a wonderful, bright, talented young woman with knowledge of literature and theater that I am super jealous of! And she deserves respect and patience from both her parents as she goes through her journey, no matter how many bumps and twists along the way! I applaud her mom for always being her support and her cheerleader! Dad is overall a good guy, but I wish he had earlier put away his traditionalist expectations, his fears of what others would think, and simply embrace his child as is. I would have been so much smoother for this lovely young woman. Growing up is SO hard - I cannot imagine doing it while also grappling with transgender issues!

Mmmagique you seem to be so well tuned in to your child, and so pro-active about getting your son help and support in his journey. I wish all teens, however they identify, had parents as supportive as you seem!


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[tiredblondy]

People have often mistaken her for a boy while she was growing up. I thought she would be a tomboy and perhaps identify as lesbian. It turns out that she is still attracted to boys, but feels that she is one (inside) as well. I don't know where this all will go. She sees her regular doctor today, so I am going to have her talk to her as well.

This is not something she has taken lightly, and I won't either. I understand the arguments on both sides.

This is not an all of a sudden she thinks she wants to be a boy though. It's more like it's how she's felt for several years, and has been hiding it. She couldn't hide it any longer.

The suicide rate for transgender people are among the highest, so I really want to help her (whatever that will mean in the future) and make sure she feels accepted for herself. (or himself) I'm kind of flying blind here myself.

What a wonderful parent you are! I wish I could have done the same with my daughter earlier in her life. Her fear of disappointing me and losing my love caused her so much turmoil as she was growing up. She never shared with me how she really felt. I suspected because of the masculine characteristics. She hated dresses, walked like a guy and was very masculine from age 6 on. She played sports and was on a boys baseball team. Bless her heart she even found a beautiful dress and tolerated it for the prom and had a date. (I suspect to please me) She tells me now she was never attracted to guys except as buddies.

I'm so sorry I gave her the impression she would lose me or my love. It's been a long hard journey and she and I are closer than ever now. I've educated myself as much as possible and continue to do so. It's almost a happy ending but she did lose her Dad. He has refused to see her, talk to her, etc. That has really hurt her. It's so sad because it's his loss. (We have divorced.)

She is a vibrant, effervescent, irrepressible, bubbly beautiful adult. Anyone who knows her loves her.

Oh as far as transgender goes-even though she says she thinks like a male (has always thought like a male) and feels like one (trapped in her body) she has never had any desire to have any sex change surgery. We joke about it now between us because there are truly times she looks so so male.We have such wonderful conversations now and so open.

I'm so glad your daughter feels she can come to you. You have done so much right. I just wanted you to know my opinion because I did not and I could have lost her forever!

For those more knowledgeable than I am about transgender vs gay I'll be happy for you to correct me if I have stated anything wrong above.

 

[Nova]

My teenagers have a close friend who is transgender (mtf), she is almost 18 now. For several years, while she still identified as male, she thought she was just flamboyantly gay and into drag lol (and she did it FANTASTICALLY - she was also a typical theater kid, wonderful voice and performance skills, took part in school and community/regional theater, still does. But damn she did a MEAN Lady Gaga!!) Later she came to realize that it wasn't that she was a gay young man interested in drag and cross-dressing, but truly identified as female. And I have to say, that knowing her from the time she was living as a little second grade boy, you could just always *tell* that she identified differently. The problem was always her father, a very conservative, stereotypically manly-man, who was embarrassed by his then-son's love of performing arts, and non-interest in things like hunting and Boy Scouts, which he kept trying to get him into. The saddest thing I remember is the dad yelling at her (then him) when she cried after not placing in the scouts pinewood derby, back in second or third grade (so I guess webelos?) Poor kid had no interest in model cars or scouts but tried so hard for dad's sake, and broke down when she didn't place. Dad yelled at her to stop crying, man up, got in the car after and sped off, apparently embarrassed that his son was crying. My husband and I were horrified.

Years later, dad has calmed down a bit now, knows what's going on, and all are in therapy (parents ended up divorcing. Thankfully mom has always been super supportive of her). I don't think dad accepts 100%. And I don't think he respects her decisions fully (I've noticed him refer to her as "my child", instead of "my daughter", or "she", her preferred pronoun, or her new female name). But the anger and frustration at least seem to have abated somewhat. Or at least now the anger an distraction is due to blended family and regular old teen issues

My long rambling point - this is a wonderful, bright, talented young woman with knowledge of literature and theater that I am super jealous of! And she deserves respect and patience from both her parents as she goes through her journey, no matter how many bumps and twists along the way! I applaud her mom for always being her support and her cheerleader! Dad is overall a good guy, but I wish he had earlier put away his traditionalist expectations, his fears of what others would think, and simply embrace his child as is. I would have been so much smoother for this lovely young woman. Growing up is SO hard - I cannot imagine doing it while also grappling with transgender issues!

Mmmagique you seem to be so well tuned in to your child, and so pro-active about getting your son help and support in his journey. I wish all teens, however they identify, had parents as supportive as you seem!


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Great story but I hope she didn't choose her sex based on her interests. There are lots of us males who prefer theater over sports (though I confound my gay friends with my passion for college football--it's a Southern thing), and lots of girls (bio or trans) who prefer sports over the arts.

 

[Nova]

These stories do bring up another issue re hormone therapy: if I understand correctly, it can prevent a voice change in M2Fs. I doubt many women really want to speak and sing like Lauren Bacall.

 

[Nova]

Confidential to mmmagique: you got plenty to think about here. I have full confidence that you and your son will, with the help of your advisors, make the best choices for him.

As you can tell, transitioning is a journey, not a destination. I'm sure the mother in you would like it all "fixed" ASAP, but that's not really how it works.

Best of luck and my prayers are with you both. (Forgive the religion talk, but I feel sure that God will reward the courage you and your son are showing.)

 

[forthelost]

I really don't think stereotypically male or female interests make someone trans. I was a tomboy as a kid, could not get me into a dress, and I'm a straight Kinsey scale zero female. (Still hate dresses, though.)

 

[Gardenlady]

These stories do bring up another issue re hormone therapy: if I understand correctly, it can prevent a voice change in M2Fs. I doubt many women really want to speak and sing like Lauren Bacall.

Lol had to laugh because for a woman I have a deep voice but unfortunately don't sound or look as sexy as Lauren, and really would LOVE to! :lol:

As for the young woman in my story, I don't think her interests are what changed her. I think just giving things a few years, trying out different personae (really as all teens do; my daughter has gone from scene kid to emo, to butch to fashion diva all in about two years hoh: ). I think many of us don't know ourselves until we "try on" different things. I'm probably not explaining it well, sorry! But I'm confident I wasn't just interests - I think it was an actual realization of identity, and do really see a difference in confidence and happiness now that wasn't there before.

I was also never into stereotypically girl things. All those things are what society tells us we should be interested in - I wish more people would see that and let their kids just BE, and figure out on their own who they are and what makes them happy!




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[Confusion]

I'm hoping that some day conversations like this won't even occur to people. I've never been able to understand why people care, and even worse feel it's any of their business, what gender a person was at birth. I can understand, to some extent, the need to be open with dates before surgery, but if everything except your y-chromosome says you're female (or the other way around), what difference does it make? I've also felt the same way about homosexuality/heterosexuality, as long as a person doesn't try to force me to live their lifestyle, what would give me the right to try to force them to live mine?

I believe that if more people would worry about living their own lives correctly and let others worry about their own, it would be much easier for those who are confused to make the decision one way or the other. When I run the world, there won't be special names for any of us - men and women, who do or don't love someone else who is a man or a woman. Oh well, not in this life. MOO

 

[Nova]

What a wonderful parent you are! I wish I could have done the same with my daughter earlier in her life. Her fear of disappointing me and losing my love caused her so much turmoil as she was growing up. She never shared with me how she really felt. I suspected because of the masculine characteristics. She hated dresses, walked like a guy and was very masculine from age 6 on. She played sports and was on a boys baseball team. Bless her heart she even found a beautiful dress and tolerated it for the prom and had a date. (I suspect to please me) She tells me now she was never attracted to guys except as buddies.

I'm so sorry I gave her the impression she would lose me or my love. It's been a long hard journey and she and I are closer than ever now. I've educated myself as much as possible and continue to do so. It's almost a happy ending but she did lose her Dad. He has refused to see her, talk to her, etc. That has really hurt her. It's so sad because it's his loss. (We have divorced.)

She is a vibrant, effervescent, irrepressible, bubbly beautiful adult. Anyone who knows her loves her.

Oh as far as transgender goes-even though she says she thinks like a male (has always thought like a male) and feels like one (trapped in her body) she has never had any desire to have any sex change surgery. We joke about it now between us because there are truly times she looks so so male.We have such wonderful conversations now and so open.

I'm so glad your daughter feels she can come to you. You have done so much right. I just wanted you to know my opinion because I did not and I could have lost her forever!

For those more knowledgeable than I am about transgender vs gay I'll be happy for you to correct me if I have stated anything wrong above.

I don't think you've said anything wrong here, but I do hope you will forgive yourself for not knowing what you didn't know when your daughter was younger. It certainly sounds like SHE has forgiven YOU! Not that there was necessarily anything to forgive. SOCIETY gives young people the impression they will be rejected by those they love if they reveal their true selves; it isn't necessarily anything the parent/loved one has done.

What your daughter proves is that sexual identity and gender identity--like sexual orientation--are better described as spectrums than black and white polarities. This, of course, only complicates the issue of whether and when to begin hormone therapies.

 

[Nova]

Lol had to laugh because for a woman I have a deep voice but unfortunately don't sound or look as sexy as Lauren, and really would LOVE to! :lol:

As for the young woman in my story, I don't think her interests are what changed her. I think just giving things a few years, trying out different personae (really as all teens do; my daughter has gone from scene kid to emo, to butch to fashion diva all in about two years hoh: ). I think many of us don't know ourselves until we "try on" different things. I'm probably not explaining it well, sorry! But I'm confident I wasn't just interests - I think it was an actual realization of identity, and do really see a difference in confidence and happiness now that wasn't there before.

I was also never into stereotypically girl things. All those things are what society tells us we should be interested in - I wish more people would see that and let their kids just BE, and figure out on their own who they are and what makes them happy!




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As always, you are perfectly clear. But some of that identity confusion is a direct result of the very hormones we are discussing, no? I'm not an expert on the consequences of hormone therapy for teens. Does it encourage clarity or just more confusion?

 

[mmmagique]

Confidential to mmmagique: you got plenty to think about here. I have full confidence that you and your son will, with the help of your advisors, make the best choices for him.

As you can tell, transitioning is a journey, not a destination. I'm sure the mother in you would like it all "fixed" ASAP, but that's not really how it works.

Best of luck and my prayers are with you both. (Forgive the religion talk, but I feel sure that God will reward the courage you and your son are showing.)

That's her biggest fear. Her godmother and she attend a very old religious church (Eastern Orthodox.) It teaches that men should not dress nor act as women, and women should not try to be men. *ugh* She is afraid she will lose her aunt, and also her church. They are both very important to her.

I have told her that God does not make mistakes, and that she is special and wonderful just as she is. (the pronouns have not been changed yet, because she doesn't seem ready for that. I've asked her what she wants to be called, and although she does have a name picked out, she hasn't yet asked us to call her that...I'm thinking once she starts therapy...)

I've told her that maybe she was put here in order to teach love and acceptance. Maybe she will help those in her church see beyond the "rules" and to the most important rule of all, which is love.

Thanks all, for all your help and support. I never expected to have to deal with something like this, and I am learning a lot about love and acceptance myself.

 

[Nova]

That's her biggest fear. Her godmother and she attend a very old religious church (Eastern Orthodox.) It teaches that men should not dress nor act as women, and women should not try to be men. *ugh* She is afraid she will lose her aunt, and also her church. They are both very important to her.

I have told her that God does not make mistakes, and that she is special and wonderful just as she is. (the pronouns have not been changed yet, because she doesn't seem ready for that. I've asked her what she wants to be called, and although she does have a name picked out, she hasn't yet asked us to call her that...I'm thinking once she starts therapy...)

I've told her that maybe she was put here in order to teach love and acceptance. Maybe she will help those in her church see beyond the "rules" and to the most important rule of all, which is love.

Thanks all, for all your help and support. I never expected to have to deal with something like this, and I am learning a lot about love and acceptance myself.

I was at Thanksgiving dinner with a group of gay men when the subject of conversation turned to religion. Not a one of us still belongs to the church or temple in which we were brought up. This was by no means a sufficient sampling for statistical purposes, but it seemed that each of us had left a conservative denomination for a more liberal one or for no church at all.

Your post brings up another point that seems hard for non-queer people to understand. (I don't mean you, mmmagique.) To many in the straight majority, "coming out" (whether as gay or transexual) seems merely a matter of "telling the truth". But from the inside, it really means discarding one fiction (the "closet") for another (whatever labels society imposes on a queer). I'm sure you can help your daughter understand that she is who she is; she isn't bound by society's stereotypes.

(BTW, I think the initial business is completely out of hand: GLBTQCI...WXYZ. Although it makes people my age shudder (because "queer" was the epithet of our generation more than "*advertiser censored*"), I'm perfectly willing to take my seat under the "queer umbrella". What we all share is our difference from the majority, so why not embrace a term that means "different"?)

 

[gxm]

Many people don't think of their sexual orientation as a preference.

Whichever term you want to use. My comment stands for both.

 

[gxm]

I also wouldn't assume every "expert" is trust worthy and free from personal bias or agendas.

From what I understand the brains of F2M transexuals actually have a noticeable "male" structure to them (m2f is much less defined). They believe it may be a hormonal problem in the womb, the brain develops male but the body stays female.

IMO as a parent I wouldn't even consider hormones or anything else on a teen "girl" unless there was strong evidence to suggest it is the right decision, in fact maybe not even then as years of testosterone use can have very negative consequences later in life so why start the clock ticking earlier than necessary.

Two decades ago one of my favorite veterinarians in California decided to go through a sex change in her 50's (F2M) and she explained the differences in brain development even back then (she was well known and was considered one of the top vets in Silicon Valley, no one was all that surprised when she decided to change genders, plus she had been with the same female partner for many years so it wasn't a big change of lifestyle). She said they believe it is a hormonal problem that occurs in the womb, the brain develops male but the body does not. (I guess I should refer to her as a he now, however I moved out of state and never saw "him" after the change).

The point is a sex change (especially involving a young teen female) is not just about how the person "feels at the time", there is often physical evidence too support the decision especially in F2M.

Or it could be that, as usual, psychiatrists are finding what they want to find. The problem is that our culture is steeped in gender bias and sees the "gender" differences it wants to see.

Female and male brains are different, thanks to hormones coursing through the brain before birth. That’s taught as fact in psychology textbooks, academic journals, and bestselling books. And these hardwired differences explain everything from sexual orientation to gender identity, to why there aren’t more women physicists or more stay-at-home dads.

In this compelling book, Rebecca Jordan-Young takes on the evidence that sex differences are hardwired into the brain. Analyzing virtually all published research that supports the claims of “human brain organization theory,” Jordan-Young reveals how often these studies fail the standards of science. Even if careful researchers point out the limits of their own studies, other researchers and journalists can easily ignore them because brain organization theory just sounds so right. But if a series of methodological weaknesses, questionable assumptions, inconsistent definitions, and enormous gaps between ambiguous findings and grand conclusions have accumulated through the years, then science isn’t scientific at all.

Elegantly written, this book argues passionately that the analysis of gender differences deserves far more rigorous, biologically sophisticated science. “The evidence for hormonal sex differentiation of the human brain better resembles a hodge-podge pile than a solid structure…Once we have cleared the rubble, we can begin to build newer, more scientific stories about human development.”

http://www.amazon.com/Brain-Storm-F...:+The+Flaws+in+the+Science+of+Sex+Differences

Also see Cordelia Young's Delusions of Gender: How Our Minds, Society, and Neurosexism Create Difference.

Dr. Fine even uses a MtF transsexual as an example: But Dr. Fine persuasively argues that it is, in fact, all in the mind. Jan Morris, the historian, travel writer and male-to-female transsexual, saw this implicit stereotyping firsthand: “The more I was treated as a woman, the more woman I became. ”

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/24/science/24scibks.html?_r=0

 

[forthelost]

I'll ask again: is a person with AIS male or female?

 

[Sonya610]

I'm trying to understand your position, Sonya. If a young person presents with the F2M brain pattern, would you oppose puberty delay therapy in such a case? Because that strikes me as a reasonable indicator FOR the hormone treatment. Yes, I know it's serious; but as I said doing nothing also has serious, permanent consequences.

If I had a son that identified as female as a young teen delaying puberty would have to be seriously considered. With a male things get a whole lot more complicated during puberty, you mentioned the "50 foot woman" and yes that would be a concern (especially in my family), facial bone structure is also a huge factor. Most of the time the facial structure of M2F is the most obvious giveaway.

My point was I would not rely on a "counselor" to guide a decision that involves hormone treatment in a 14 year old female. If hormones had to be considered I would want to have brain scans done or use other physical diagnostic tests to determine the right course of action. Most young females could easily pass as male and be accepted as male without medical intervention.

Also gay/transexual teens have an unusually high suicide rate (even higher than teens in general). That would be another reason I would be very hesitant to start a teen girl on hormones or encourage an overt sex change, does she want to change schools? Does she go to an ultra-liberal school now that would allow such a stated change without extreme peer disapproval/harassment?

Oh and Lauren Bacall actually learned how to drop her voice by an octave. A deep female voice is in fact very desirable, men find it very soothing (I have a fairly deep voice and have received many professional compliments on it, especially on conference calls).

ETA -- while M2F genital surgery often provides very good results, the same cannot be said about F2M surgery, the results are not at all natural which is why many F2M transexuals don't have the surgery. It is basically like sewing a sausage onto their public bone.

 

[Sonya610]

You didn't say this, but we should be careful of the bias that "doing nothing" is somehow "more natural" and therefore safer. It may be more "natural" to leave scoliosis untreated, but it's hardly better for the patient.

I never said anything about being natural. In situations like this I tend to think "what is the worst that could happen???"

In THIS case I would think "If we don't do anything now the decision CAN be made later with equally good results" vs. "If we do something now and later realize it was a mistake, the decision will have negative lifelong physical consequences".