Trial Discussion Thread #33 - 14.05.05 Day 26

[AlwaysShocked]

It sure seems that Oscar and his PR people have been quite vicious with anyone who has dared to cross him. And on the stand Oscar was surely not afraid of blaming others and claiming others to be liars. Plus he maligned the honorable doctor - one of the truly honorable people in this case - for no good reason whatsoever.

Oscar, and today Carise, saying they were "trying to save Reeva's life" - by sticking their fingers in her mouth? Who has ever even heard of anything like this, ever, as a life saving method? It's not even something you see in a movie! (Not that the majority of movies ever show proper CPR techniques, because they so often don't.)

 

[shane13]

Since the beginnng of civilization, prosecutors have made reluctant witnesses testify to what they know.

Not here.

In the piece above, I cited that that the cops who interviewed Frank did not find him credible when he said he heard nothing.

Who do you think these cops are? Probably Botha is one.
Botha blew the whistle on top cops giving Carl or Oldwage the .38 ammo and memory stick, and prob. recommended to prosecutors to get Frank to talk.
You cans see why Botha had to be arrested and taken off the case. JMO

This one obviously runs deep.

 

[supernovaNic]

If Frank Chiziweni won't be called, will My Lady ever know that someone else was actually INSIDE THE HOUSE when it happened?

 

[steveml]

The daughter's testimony that she heard cries for help and rather than even make a phone call, she got back into bed, cuddled her dog and pulled the covers up over her head was simply appalling! This is an adult, educated woman's reaction to a cry for help?
IF her story is true, she should be ashamed of herself.

<snipped>

BBM

I find this really interesting, and would be surprised if any others have this view.

If we look back at the earlier witness testimonies, I mentioned a similar situation regarding Burger & Johnson, although not quite as strong as this.
How on earth could they just go back to sleep, knowing what they had heard, and knowing that they had not even correctly contacted the correct security firm?

I was admonished rather quickly for suggesting this of a witness.

 

[katydid23]

I read that as they were outside his house sometime after others got there and that Baba was referring to the earlier phone call. Is that what you got from it?

NO. during the trial it was stated that security got calls about the sounds of screaming and shots fired, seemingly from OP"s home. So they drove over there and called Oscar.

Initially there was a dropped, several second call FROM OP to security. THEN security called OP and Baba was told things were 'fine.' At that point they were outside his home.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Random...

This link surely must have already been posted somewhere in this Forum but my search function isn't working so...

I just ran across a video clip that shows how fast OP can put on at least one leg. I'd never seen it before.

Scroll down to "See how quickly he puts on one of his legs."

Thanks for the great link Colonel. There's a really good 7 min interview further down with Uncle Arnold. We've all been of the understanding that only OP really knew what happened that night, but so too does Uncle Arnold.

A little a further down there's an article:

"At 03.08.30 listen carefully.

Listen again and if you get it, you will realise that he admitted right there that he KNEW Reeva was behind the door.

However halfway through his sentence he realises the grave mistake but he just could not rectify. The judge and both the assessors picked up on it, without a doubt.

His own words put Reeva behind the door. "In her mind I must have been retreating...".

SLAM DUNK ! He is toast.

Furthermore, Nel tells OP that Reeva was awake, she was in the toilet, he was 3 meters away from the toilet door, shouting and screaming at Reeva. Nel says that Reeva would have responded.

And OP, answered "... she did not respond My Lady ... "

Really OP? She did not respond from behind the toilet door? Really? We thought you did not know she was behind the toilet door.

If lay people like us can pick up on things like this, believe me, the Judge picked up on it and 100's of other things that are lost on us.

LOL ! "

 

[steveml]

Since the beginnng of civilization, prosecutors have made reluctant witnesses testify to what they know.

Not here.

In the piece above, I cited that that the cops who interviewed Frank did not find him credible when he said he heard nothing.

Who do you think these cops are? Probably Botha is one.
Botha blew the whistle on top cops giving Carl or Oldwage the .38 ammo and memory stick, and prob. recommended to prosecutors to get Frank to talk.
You cans see why Botha had to be arrested and taken off the case. JMO

This one obviously runs deep.

BBM

Rather than constantly typing 'this one runs deep', can you please explain?

I'm really not getting this. It's the equivalent of including the line 'I know something you don't'.

If you want to tell us, please tell us. If not, then I really don't see the point in including this in the majority of posts, as it contributes nothing to the debate.

 

[Apollo]

It sure seems that Oscar and his PR people have been quite vicious with anyone who has dared to cross him. And on the stand Oscar was surely not afraid of blaming others and claiming others to be liars. Plus he maligned the honorable doctor - one of the truly honorable people in this case - for no good reason whatsoever.

Oscar, and today Carise, saying they were "trying to save Reeva's life" - by sticking their fingers in her mouth? Who has ever even heard of anything like this, ever, as a life saving method? It's not even something you see in a movie! (Not that the majority of movies ever show proper CPR techniques, because they so often don't.)

Carise also said she ran to get towels to stop the bleeding. She was dead, there was no more bleeding by the time she got there. Any blood in the vessels that were severed would have drained out from OP dragging her into the bathroom and then picking her up.

 

[Cymbaline]

Carise also said she ran to get towels to stop the bleeding. She was dead, there was no more bleeding by the time she got there. Any blood in the vessels that were severed would have drained out from OP dragging her into the bathroom and then picking her up.

I think Carise also said that Reeva's eyes were open.



JMO

 

[katydid23]

I would also like to make note that OP claimed he called Stander first because he needed help lifting Reeva (before netcare allegedly told him to take her to the hospital himself, no less).

But Stander testified that he met OP when he moved into the community and OP came over to help him move furniture. So OP is capable of moving furniture by himself, but not a 120 lb woman?

In the end, OP picked her up on his own just fine. So we're left with WHY was the first phone call to Stander rather than netcare or the police. WHY WHY WHY

After listening to the witnesses yesterday, I changed my mind about that question.

I now believe that OP was actually calling Carisa Stander for help, not her father. A few things stood out to me. She was more proactive that night than her Dad was. She made calls for him, blocked others from entering, followed OP around, got him towels, talked to him in the kitchen and then the garage...

She is a legal professional. Op knew that. Also, they seemed to have a social relationship. She admitted to going over there for coffee a time or two. And she looks like his type as well.

If it was really about getting help to lift RS, he would have gotten Frank's help.
Frank was already there and available immediately.

This 'first call' was about legal help and help covering up and blocking the blowback, imo.

 

[Jim Kirk]

Does anyone know roughly how many more witnesses there are to go through?

Trying to get a rough idea of when the trial is going to end.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Reeva was dead before "help came."

If you believe Carise and her story that Reeva was bleeding and alive until the paramedics pronounced her dead at 3:50, then I have oceanfront property in Colorado that you may be interested in purchasing.
OP shot her enough times, more than once, to make sure that her blood curdling screams stopped. That goes to premeditation BTW.

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

 

[Apollo]

I think Carise also said that Reeva's eyes were open.



JMO

I just listened to some more of her testimony after her statement that she got the towels and tried to stop the bleeding. She then testified to what she did after that and when asked what OP was doing, she stated ''He was still trying to stop the bleeding" Someone should have clued her in that dead people don't bleed so she wouldn't have sounded so ridiculous.

 

[Karmady]

Thanks for the great link Colonel. There's a really good 7 min interview further down with Uncle Arnold. We've all been of the understanding that only OP really knew what happened that night, but so too does Uncle Arnold.

A little a further down there's an article:

"At 03.08.30 listen carefully.

Listen again and if you get it, you will realise that he admitted right there that he KNEW Reeva was behind the door.

However halfway through his sentence he realises the grave mistake but he just could not rectify. The judge and both the assessors picked up on it, without a doubt.

His own words put Reeva behind the door. "In her mind I must have been retreating...".

SLAM DUNK ! He is toast.

Furthermore, Nel tells OP that Reeva was awake, she was in the toilet, he was 3 meters away from the toilet door, shouting and screaming at Reeva. Nel says that Reeva would have responded.

And OP, answered "... she did not respond My Lady ... "

Really OP? She did not respond from behind the toilet door? Really? We thought you did not know she was behind the toilet door.

If lay people like us can pick up on things like this, believe me, the Judge picked up on it and 100's of other things that are lost on us.

LOL ! "

Well, obviously he NOW knows she was behind the door. So those two statements are what I'd expect him to say and don't prove anything - regardless of whether one believes he is guilty or innocent. The alternatives would be something like - "In what I now know to have been her mind, and not actually the mind of an intruder as I then believed, I must have been retreating..." and ""she, whom I believed at the time to be an intruder, did not respond My Lady ... "

jmo

 

[MsMarple]

Nels was obviously uninterested in these people and their testimony about Oscar's deep grief, his wailing, and his puking. (He really goes for the puking bit, ehh?) The greater portion of these testimonies were about things that took place AFTER the shooting. He has already stated that it is only what happened before the shooting that is of any import.
I agree with him.

So, although there were small details of things we would have liked to have gotten answers for, I think his strategy today was good in keeping it short and sweet.

And it sure caught Roux "with his pants down"!

RSBM

You're absolutely correct! I'd forgotten he said that so thank you for the reminder. :thumb:

I agree that in this portion of the trial Nel is carefully picking his battles and it's a good strategy. He focused on things that will help his argument and at the same time avoided calling attention to the witnesses' emotional statements.

There's nothing to be gained by emphasizing those long-winded, tearful comments – the faster they recede from the judge's mind, the better for the prosecution.

 

[steveml]

It sure seems that Oscar and his PR people have been quite vicious with anyone who has dared to cross him. And on the stand Oscar was surely not afraid of blaming others and claiming others to be liars. Plus he maligned the honorable doctor - one of the truly honorable people in this case - for no good reason whatsoever.

Oscar, and today Carise, saying they were "trying to save Reeva's life" - by sticking their fingers in her mouth? Who has ever even heard of anything like this, ever, as a life saving method? It's not even something you see in a movie! (Not that the majority of movies ever show proper CPR techniques, because they so often don't.)

BBM

I wouldn't have the heart to suggest that they both weren't doing everything to keep Reeva alive. Sure, who knows what we'd do in a traumatic situation such as this. I'd probably do some things wrong, but I'd like to feel that I at least tried. Knowing the traumatic experience Carise has to live with, which was clear from her voice during the trial, I'm sure the last thing she'd want is reprimanding about the way she tried to save a life. The more we direct lifelong guilt towards those that attempt to administer aid, the less people are going to attempt to do so in the first place. That's not a society I wish to see.

Or is the post suggesting that Carise, a young lady with a full life ahead, was complicit in attempting to murder another young lady such as herself, thereby risking life imprisonment for a guy she was not even related to?

 

[JudgeJudi]

I consider not immediately calling an ambulance himself or asking security immediately to call one was stalling for enough time to be sure Reeva was dead when people inevitably arrived. There was no time spent feeling around in the dark for Reeva. Or running back and forth calling her name imo. No, that time was spent by OP in full cover-up mode, muddying the scene, thinking of his next moves as her blood pooled until security pulled up outside and the Standers arrived. He then picked her up and played the grieving, "broken" man. JOO

Exactly. Together with "Crying hysterically, the Olympic athlete told the court: “I sat over Reeva and I cried" after finding her body.

Between massive sobs he added: “I don’t know how long I was there. She wasn’t breathing.”

But shortly afterwards he said she was breathing.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-i-fired-four-3389920

 

[james83]

His version is that he didn't see or hear anything. So how can his testimony be helpful to either side?

Even though he was standing outside when the Standers arrived.
I'm pretty sure his true version would be useful.

 

[Apollo]

BBM

I wouldn't have the heart to suggest that they both weren't doing everything to keep Reeva alive. Sure, who knows what we'd do in a traumatic situation such as this. I'd probably do some things wrong, but I'd like to feel that I at least tried. Knowing the traumatic experience Carise has to live with, which was clear from her voice during the trial, I'm sure the last thing she'd want is reprimanding about the way she tried to save a life. The more we direct lifelong guilt towards those that attempt to administer aid, the less people are going to attempt to do so in the first place. That's not a society I wish to see.

Or is the post suggesting that Carise, a young lady with a full life ahead, was complicit in attempting to murder another young lady such as herself, thereby risking life imprisonment for a guy she was not even related to?

You can't keep someone alive who's already dead and has brain matter entangled in their hair. Instead of getting towels, it would have been more useful if she had turned on some lights so she could see what was going on.

 

[Suthrnqt]

Does anyone know roughly how many more witnesses there are to go through?

Trying to get a rough idea of when the trial is going to end.

Don't quote me on this, lol, but I think there was a total of 11 witnesses for the DT.