Trial Discussion Thread #33 - 14.05.05 Day 26

[Val1]

ok, but in my defense, I think that's a little different than what you posted originally -- that he stalled for time to think v. to make absolutely sure she died before help arrived.

:twocents: How about making sure RS couldn't possibly make any last second gasps of accusal by keeping either his or Ms. Stander's fingers in her mouth until Dr. Stipp said RS was dead, no need to waste more of his "collectable"(and probably untraceable) Black Talon bullets...

 

[Fuskier]

So, the part about the dogs being nice and very friendly to everyone was an explanation for why the dogs didn't bark at the "intruder", yes?

Exactly! Tailoring IMO.

 

[Fuskier]

If there's that much brain tissue blown out, it should be obvious that person is dead.

Exactly! It was obvious to Dr Stip. It makes one wonder about both OP and Clarice IMO.

 

[sicknote]

-- 5 MINUTE BREAK --
BBM - So initially she testified she heard "someone" shout, then after the break it was a man.

And she wondered "where's the lady?"?!?!?! How in the world would she know there was a lady in the house where the screams came from?!

This bothers me.

She must have heard the "lady" screaming. No?

 

[minor4th]

Well, his 'version' is a bold faced lie, IMO. There is no way in he**(double hockey sticks) he didn't hear exactly what transpired that night, jmo.
Wondering if he had to sign a confidentiality agreement as a condition of his employment.
:dunno:
As one of my favorite WSers says,
"If there's hink, there's stink."
:moo: :moo: :moo:

I agree - he doesn't want to be involved at all so he said he didn't hear or see anything

 

[shane13]

Regarding Stander, he came to OP's defense in 2009 also:

http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-afr...r-1.459034?ot=inmsa.ArticlePrintPageLayout.ot
Police spokeswoman Marinda Stoltz said Pistorius had asked Memory to leave and slammed the door. A wooden panel then dislodged from the door and injured her leg. Memory laid a charge with the police, and he was arrested.

Pistorius spent the night at the Boschkop police station and was released the next day with a warning.

Frans Stander, the estate's general manager, this week spoke of his shock at the arrest.
"Oscar is the most decent man you will ever meet in your life. He treats everyone with so much respect and I have never received a complaint about him since his been living here, that's why I was shocked at what had happened," he said.

Estate security guards praised the Blade Runner for being down to earth and helping out whenever he could.

Stander added that although Pistorius had thrown numerous parties since he moved in, all of them had been peaceful.

"His parties are loved by everyone, even the old couples at the estate look forward to going to them."

When asked about the incident, Stander said Memory had probably been drunk.

"At parties, alcohol always flows freely, and Memory had a lot to drink. She hit a (stormwater) drain on her way out of the estate," he added.



The name quoted is Frans Stander, not Johan, but I think that's a typo.

I haven't found anything pointing to OP and Stander being best buddies - IIRC, when OP called him after shooting Reeva he had to look up the number in a telephone book (maybe one for the residents?) - but I believe Stander feels some loyalty to OP.

Both the article and Stander's quotes may be slanderous.
The more recent Vogue article had Ms T-M's attorneys reveal that OP was the one who had too much alcohol. Ms Rom caught her BF, OP, in another room, making out with another woman. She gave hm what4. He did not take kindly to that in front of others. He threw Ms Rom and her GF Ms T-M out of his house.

Cassidy [note sp error in piece] tried to get back in as her wallet or bag was still in OP's house. Some reports say he slammed the door on her, others say the panels came off when he punched the door.

Again IMO, both the article and Stander leave much to be desired as far as truthfulness. JMO

ETA: Thank you Ms Marple.

 

[Fuskier]

I have to hand it to OP as that was a clever story very quickly thought of about the intruder and then to call his neighbors rather than LE or ambulance was another clever thing to do to try to get people to see his side of things and be on his side.

There is just enough possibility that his story could be true that it makes it possibly believable. And for him to come up with this story so fast. IMO he had about 5 to 10 minutes maximum to develop what he was going to tell people. Unless he had thought of it even before he shot her.

Its possible he thought of this story before he actually shot her.

The totality of the evidence is important to keep in mind as we hear the pieces.

Possible IMO. To be considered in the 'scheme' of things when weighing the evidence.

 

[wb180]

His version is that he didn't see or hear anything. So how can his testimony be helpful to either side?

The guy should be called on the stand coz I thought we keep seeing posters write that PT witnesses were too far, PT could only find these witnesses when there are so many people in the estate.

Well we have a guy that lives on the actual property that said he didn't hear anything. That should satisfy all these posters.

But once he gets on the stand let Nel unleash his CE coz this guy knows exactly what happened!

 

[steveml]

Johan Stander was estate manager, so he and OP likely shared the common goal to keep the media away at all costs and get Reeva to the hospital as quickly and quietly as possible. Dr. Stipp's arrival spoiled their plan. And only then was an ambulance called at Dr. Stipp's insistence.
I don't view Stander as an honorable man. ...:cow:

BBM

I really don't believe for one minute that OP said to Stander 'look my friend, I really lost my temper with my girlfriend and ending up shooting her, can you just turn a blind eye and say it was an accident? I won't let it happen again...promise'.

If you think long and hard about it, is it at all probable for one moment that Stander, who is not related to OP in any way, is going to risk a possible prison sentence by covering for OP?

Is it at all probable that Mr Stander is going to ask his daughter to do the same?

Is it at all probable that Mr Stander has explained his cover-up to his wife, and she's OK with this, and also entirely happy for her daughter to be involved as well?

Stander had also met and spoken to Reeva - it's very likely he found her to be a lovely girl. Is it at all probable that he's willing to have something like this on his conscience to the day he dies, all for the benefit of OP?

Or is it entirely probable that Stander is just telling things as he saw it that day, and believes OP to be innocent of intentionally killing Reeva?

 

[Fuskier]

So what do we make of this


Barry Bateman ‏@barrybateman 4m
#OscarTrial I’ve established that Oscar’s live-in caretaker Frank Chiziweni provided nothing useful in his statement to the police. BB
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Barry Bateman ‏@barrybateman 4m
#OscarTrial The sum of Frank Chiziweni’s statement to the police was - I saw nothing. I heard nothing. I know nothing. BB
Expand Reply Retweet Favorite More

Suspicious much?

It tells us much about how much Frank is likely to know, but also knows only too well 'the lie of the land' IMO.

 

[Suthrnqt]

BBM

I really don't believe for one minute that OP said to Stander 'look my friend, I really lost my temper with my girlfriend and ending up shooting her, can you just turn a blind eye and say it was an accident? I won't let it happen again...promise'.

If you think long and hard about it, is it at all probable for one moment that Stander, who is not related to OP in any way, is going to risk a possible prison sentence by covering for OP?

Is it at all probable that Mr Stander is going to ask his daughter to do the same?

Is it at all probable that Mr Stander has explained his cover-up to his wife, and she's OK with this, and also entirely happy for her daughter to be involved as well?

Stander had also met and spoken to Reeva - it's very likely he found her to be a lovely girl. Is it at all probable that he's willing to have something like this on his conscience to the day he dies, all for the benefit of OP?

Or is it entirely probable that Stander is just telling things as he saw it that day, and believes OP to be innocent of intentionally killing Reeva?

Steveml....someone changed your avatar again. Lol

 

[zoran]

Yup...

uh hu

 

[Fuskier]

Let's think about this, even those who think O.P is innocent of at least not knowing it was Reeva in the toilet

1) Oscar's live in gardener Frank Chiziweni claims to have heard or seen nothing of the incident on the morning of 14th Feb 2013

2) Carice Stander testified today that when she arrived at O.P's house on that fateful morning, Chiziweni was outside the house standing with Silverwoods security staff

So if he heard nothing of the incident, then who woke him up?.

Does anyone not find this at least slightly suspicious?, because to me it smells very very fishy.

BBM. Exactly! Wondered the same thing.

 

[Fuskier]

I've still got a number of pages to catch up on, but I just wanted to pick up on this post because it's something I noticed immediately while catching up on the defence witness testimonies earlier today ..

.. when OP gave his testimony, he stated that he went upstairs when the paramedics arrived in order to get Reeva's ID .. but Stipp had said OP had gone up there before the paramedics arrived. There were deffo two trips upstairs, and there is deffo someone trying to muddy the waters here, imo, by trying to suggest they were both one of the same trip upstairs .. I'm pretty sure they weren't and am going to check out both Stipp's and OP's testimonies again to be certain of what they both stated.

BBM. Agree looks like 'tailoring' to keep the evidence 'blurred' IMO.

 

[steveml]

Steveml....someone changed your avatar again. Lol

Yep, I turn my back for one minute...







Deja vu from OP's bedroom perhaps?

 

[AlwaysShocked]

Yes I believe it is possible that Mr. Stander thinks it was all just "a mistake". Theoretically, since he's been scheduled all along as a witness he has not been following the testimony in the trial. Although if he has been reading his daily newspaper, he may have gotten at least an overview of Oscar's testimony. And of course the headlines about Oscar's grief, his wailing and his puking would have been prominent.

I was kind of shocked at how poor the testimony was today in terms of it being of any real help to the defense. As someone else said, there is simply no "there" there.

The daughter's testimony that she heard cries for help and rather than even make a phone call, she got back into bed, cuddled her dog and pulled the covers up over her head was simply appalling! This is an adult, educated woman's reaction to a cry for help?
IF her story is true, she should be ashamed of herself.

Perhaps we all worried too much about her providing Oscar with legal advice the morning after the murder.

I need to go back and listen again to Carise's testimony. In one of her rather long-winded. breathy explanations for her actions did she say that she returned to Oscar's house after her shower and change of clothing at home because she could "see that Oscar's sister was having a hard time"? Did she mean see her from her own house, literally? I did not understand that part of her testimony at all.


The father contradicted his own testimony right there on the stand. Early on, he said he did not have a security system at his home, then later he answered a question about if Oscar's security system gives an audible beep and included the information that "mine doesn't". What the hell?

Oh, and didn't Oscar testify that he asked Mr. Stander to call for an ambulance when he first spoke to him on the phone? That went by the wayside today.

Nels was obviously uninterested in these people and their testimony about Oscar's deep grief, his wailing, and his puking. (He really goes for the puking bit, ehh?) The greater portion of these testimonies were about things that took place AFTER the shooting. He has already stated that it is only what happened before the shooting that is of any import.
I agree with him.

So, although there were small details of things we would have liked to have gotten answers for, I think his strategy today was good in keeping it short and sweet.

And it sure caught Roux "with his pants down"!

 

[MsMarple]

Both the article and Stander's quotes may be slanderous.
The more recent Vogue article had Ms T-M's attorneys reveal that OP was the one who had too much alcohol. Ms Rom caught her BF, OP, in another room, making out with another woman. She gave hm what4. He did not take kindly to that in front of others. He threw Ms Rom and her GF Ms T-M out of his house.

Cassidy [note sp error in piece] tried to get back in as her wallet or bag was still in OP's house. Some reports say he slammed the door on her, others say the panels came off when he punched the door.

Again IMO, both the article and Stander leave much to be desired as far as truthfulness. JMO

ETA: Thank you Ms Marple.

Thanks for that! The various stories were conflicting; apparently the case has been settled and has a nondisclosure agreement.

And yeah, it does make me wonder how far Stander would go in order to help OP out. I don't think he'd put himself in legal jeopardy, but he went a little over the top with the emotional comments.

 

[Forensics]

Does anyone know whereabouts this Frank the caretaker's house is in OP's grounds? The grounds of OP's house isn't particularly big and I can't see any outbuildings in the overhead shots, unless I've missed something somewhere .. I also can't see any kind of fountain in the grounds, either ..

Yes, and who on earth would leave their fountain on overnight????? Just a waste of electricity........o-o-oh, Oscar left it on to impress the burglar.

 

[Fuskier]

If OP needed help picking up RS, why didnt he fetch Frank, who was already on the property?

Exactly! More questions arise about his intention here. He chose to call his friend Stander instead, yet Frank seemed to be his 'house helper'.

 

[Cymbaline]

I was left with the impression that OP wanted the Stander's to take Reeva to the hospital. Didn't OP offer to let the Standers take his car?



All JMO.