Trial Discussion Thread #44 - 14.07.1-2, Day 34-35

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Viper - from that text:

Those who know him describe him as gentle, respectful and conflict avoidant.


Now I'm wondering just who it was they evaluated! Who are these people who described him that way, his family? Clearly they didn't speak to any of the people he raged at in his 'gentle and respectful' manner. Conflict avoidant? In what universe!

ETA - Did any of the psyche team talk to members of Reeva's family or her friends? I'm thinking not.

I know, right? The only ones who have described him as such are on the payroll.
'Gentle, respectful and conflict avoidant' are not the adjectives I would use to describe him. Smh
 
Viper - from that text:

Those who know him describe him as gentle, respectful and conflict avoidant.


Now I'm wondering just who it was they evaluated! Who are these people who described him that way, his family? Clearly they didn't speak to any of the people he raged at in his 'gentle and respectful' manner. Conflict avoidant? In what universe!

ETA - Did any of the psyche team talk to members of Reeva's family or her friends? I'm thinking not.

Yes, these conclusions even seem to contradict reports that are in the public domain. Stinks a bit, doesn't it.
 
If OP's stumps are that uncomfortable to walk or stand on, then how can he not only walk but run with his prosthetics on? Is there a ton of extra padding under his stump in the prosthetics to prevent the pain? Or is this another lie from OP's camp to try and get him off of the murder charges?

This is a great point considering the youtube video that was floating around with a gentleman that has the same amputation as OP and was he was very mobile. IMO if it was that difficult or painful it would have been corrected...he doesn't appear to be a very tolerate person.
 
My thoughts on Wayne Derman’s evidence:

- his specialty is Sports and Exercise Medicine, yet the bulk of his expert report deals with neuroscience, experimental psychology and psychiatry
- he included hearsay evidence of a general anecdotal nature of a masseuse from London in his report to support his expert findings and even the Judge was forced to strike it as irrelevant to a finding in the accused
- he included much character evidence by the back door that didn’t appear relevant in such a report
- some matters of fact included in his report are false, e.g. he claimed this Independent article http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/attacks-on-disabled-people-still-rife--one-year-on-from-paralympics-triumph-8788521.html reported a rise in violent attacks on disabled post-2012, but this is misrepresenting what is actually reported, it actually never says this

- he tried to present a finding of anxiety trait (this means you show some signs and symptoms but do not meet the diagnosis) in the accused as something abnormal, but this is very common (half of population) and many would say physiological and normal, it does not make him special in any way
- he did not present any medical history, interview or formal examination taken by himself in this regard - this is a basic requirement of any doctor before he makes a finding
- if he observed an issue he should have explored it and managed or treated it further but he made no mention of this
- he supported his finding by his claimed observation of the accused cowering and covering ears at loud bangs like planned fireworks ceremonies, but this is frankly unbelievable given what we know and have seen
- he also supported this by a claimed observation of hand tremor - but he did not describe the tremor in any usual medical terms or contexts, consider other causes - and evidence shows the contrary, that in highly stressful situations such as national TV interviews his hands look rock solid
- we can assume he mostly saw Pistorius when he was competing or preparing to compete or when he came with a medical problem, and it would be normal to be anxious here

- he tried to further support his finding by data from his K10 experiment, but the data shows absolutely nothing remarkable and proves nothing. this is very important - it really does show nothing.
Issue 1) The post-race scores do NOT represent normal scores. They were taken while still at the World Championships one day after the closing ceremony, and as the test asks about the previous 30 days are significantly affected by pre-race anxiety, travel, etc - just to a lesser degree than pre-race scores.
Issue 2) Pistorius’ post-race score was still given as 19 anyway, <20 is considered normal
Issue 3) In the study, the mean post-race score of 25 athletes was 16.1 and Derman correctly states that Pistorius’s score was above the mean - and implied some significance to this. However, it is unremarkable given a) points 1 and 2 above, b) the standard deviation was 5.2 as reported in the abstract here http://www.idrett.no/SiteCollectionDocuments/2011Abstrakter%20fra%20VISTA%20konferansen%202011.pdf see p52 - this means the 95% confidence interval of the mean, i.e. where statistically we can say it probably lies, is 14.1 to 18.1, this means we can only confidently say that Pistorius’ score is just 1 above the mean, this is unremarkable given half of participants would be above the mean anyway, assuming a normal distribution of results
Issue 4) Pistorius took the test at 2 meetings, but Derman only gave the result of 1 post-race score. Which meeting was this and what was the other post-race score?
Issue 5) Derman only gave a mean score of 25 athletes from 1 meeting - is this meeting the same meeting as the score he gave for Pistorius?


- he then talked about various statistics from across the world on disability and risk of violence in general, but why is this relevant? the actual relevant aspect of perceived fear of violence was never once addressed
- the context of these figures - outside home, in institutions, etc - and whether they can even apply to Mr Pistorius in South Africa, in a private estate, at home in the night with his girlfriend was never addressed
- the fact as to whether these statistics would have been known about by Mr Pistorius yet alone uppermost in his mind was also not addressed, in fact some of the statistics Derman gave were from after the incident, their relevance to the case can surely be nil
- the important fact that there never was an intruder or risk of violence was never mentioned
- Mr Pistorius has never reported being targeted due to his disability and this also was never mentioned

- he then led into the startle response, and it’s measurement
- he said it can he higher if a person has been fear-conditioned shortly before/anticipatory, and also if a person has anxiety
- it’s really not clear why this is relevant to the case, the startle response is NOT the fight or flight response
- it is a quick reflex that lasts moments - almost always either a blink or a flinch of the neck and shoulders, and it is always bilateral and symmetrical in humans - i.e. one arm or shoulder muscle flexes, the other also does the same. if you’ve ever blinked due to a sudden loud noise, or flinched because you felt something on your back suddenly, this is the startle response
- in experiments, we are measuring the strength and briskness of muscle contraction with electrodes, in humans, rats, mice - we are not observing anything like a dramatic response
- it cannot involve pulling a trigger or picking up a gun or going down a corridor
- I really don’t know where he is going with this - I hope he is not going to imply these experiments prove a more dramatic and intense flight or fight response in life-endangering situations, because this is bogus

- he also discussed anecdotes of mothers picking up cars and warding off polar bears to rescue their children
- he said this is relevant to the case because it shows the fight-or-flight response can involve confronting and going towards the danger, like Pistorius did
- however, this analogy simply doesn’t hold water. in the cars and polar bear, the danger has already approached and confronted the victims, and it is confronted back out of necessity in order to rescue the children
- this is very different to approaching and confronting a danger that sits on its own that is not approaching or directly endangering you, and when other options are available

- I found it amusing that he blamed “We are the Super Humans” slogan for his claim of increased attacks on disabled, but then wants to claim, as in the masseur’s email, that disabled people have a superhuman flight of fight reaction that surpasses the full-pelt adrenaline reaction of a life-endangering situation for a ‘normal’ person
 
Let me get this right. Firing a gun out of a sunroof, screaming at Sam Taylor and her friends, raging about the Brazilian's blades, shouting at people on the phone so often his room mate asked to change rooms, slamming a door on Cassidy-Memmory, threatening to break someone's legs - none of these things indicate previous anger issues? Really?

. . . . and don't forget the dog story.

OP hits a dog with his car (I assume while driving at a careless speed since he seems to always be looking over his shoulder, racing away from robbers and "bad men" that he believes to be after him). Says he jumps out of the car, sees the dog in pain & puts a bullet in it's head. Then hops back in his car and drives off - no need to wait for owner, look for owner, check for dog tag & number, maybe rush dog to a vet or even ask anyone watching if they might know the owner. Nope. Hops back in car and jets off. . . . . What a heartless d!%#. :mad:

Ok, Ok, ....perhaps NOT an "anger issue", but there is something terribly wrong with that man!

(I may have screwed up a detail, but think the story is pretty close to the one I read about this incident. I believe it was OP who shared it with someone, a reporter.)
 
Sorry of this has been asked and answered...still watching the last bits of the trial on YouTube....just soooo boring, I needed a break (and haven't been able to read all the new forum posts from today yet)...

The psychiatric evaluation mentioned that OP suffered (since shooting) "significant scores" in PTSD, Agoraphobia, Social Phobia AND Alcohol Abuse.

I understand all those findings would make sense, following what he has been through (or more appropriately...the horrific mess he's created).
1. Killing a person
2. Going from "Golden Boy" to Murderer, with the eyes of the world literally on you and what you did

However, I am curious why they would include Alcohol Abuse. That classification under the DSM-iv (or whatever its called) for "alcohol abuse" is pretty excessive I believe.

Did he tell them he's drinking a lot now? Or did family & friends?

Nel started to mention something to the Paralympics physician about an accident (car? Or motorcycle maybe?) - can't recall exactly what he said - but sounded recent. I am still not thru all of today's proceedings so maybe it is brought up later or I misunderstood.) and it may have had nothing to do with alcohol, just mentioning.

Very curious about his level of drinking and what he's been doing to get it mentioned in evaluation.

(I guess he's not training and he did say he drinks when he's not in training. Ughhh. Hopes he's not driving too).
 
Did I hear right?

The test the Paralympic doctor was going on and on about (given to high profile athletes with disabilities, as well as IRONMAN competitors) . . . consistent of only those 10 questions? Really, 10 questions?

To me it seemed so lame. The questions, vague & simplistic...and only 10 questions. All this time spent going over these "results", like it really had value.

Maybe I'm just crabby today, but seemed ridiculous to me. Embarrassing to defense, using this as if it would carry any weight.

Maybe these 10 QUESTIONS would help a little more with shining a little light on OP and his possible "hypervigilance":

1. Did you feel threatened & anxious that Reeva was grabbing her jeans to get dressed, packing her bag & leaving the house of the great & powerful OZ, after you acted like a lunatic welding a cricket bat?

2. Did you feel anxious that your career might suddenly go down the toilet (no pun intended) after Reeva got her cell phone out & threatened to call the police? (Which you then grabbed out of her hand and threw it against something since it looked totally beat to he!!)?

3. When she screamed at the top of her lungs at 3am because she was frightened for her life, . . . did that set you on edge?

Well, you get my gist (don't need 10 of them). Not trying to make light of the situation, but this handling with kid gloves of "poor" Oscar (Olympic athlete) due to his disability and implying its an excuse for shooting 4 hollow point bullets into a closed toilet cubicle knowing someone was inside (and your girlfriend was in the same room with you) is a joke. Shameful IMO.

Well..back to listening to the rest of monotone, slow speaking Oldwage. Torture.
 
. . . . and don't forget the dog story.

OP hits a dog with his car (I assume while driving at a careless speed since he seems to always be looking over his shoulder, racing away from robbers and "bad men" that he believes to be after him). Says he jumps out of the car, sees the dog in pain & puts a bullet in it's head. Then hops back in his car and drives off - no need to wait for owner, look for owner, check for dog tag & number, maybe rush dog to a vet or even ask anyone watching if they might know the owner. Nope. Hops back in car and jets off. . . . . What a heartless d!%#. :mad:

Ok, Ok, ....perhaps NOT an "anger issue", but there is something terribly wrong with that man!

(I may have screwed up a detail, but think the story is pretty close to the one I read about this incident. I believe it was OP who shared it with someone, a reporter.)

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAT?!?!? :banghead: I did not know this. OP is the gift that keeps on giving. smh.


oh, and hello to everyone, been MIA but getting back on track :wave:
 
Who doesn't have 'startle disorder'? I was at Starbucks this morning, and someone knocked over a shelf with cups, which fell and smashed. EVERYONE cringed/jumped/reacted in a startled manner.
I hope none of the patrons took cover in one of the unisex bathrooms. we know now how dangerous that can turn out.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk
 
It seems to me that this recent testimony was supposed to be supportive of Dr Voster's GAD diagnosis, however in isolation it's very weak IMO. The defence can't finish with this witness, surely.
 
. . . . and don't forget the dog story.

OP hits a dog with his car (I assume while driving at a careless speed since he seems to always be looking over his shoulder, racing away from robbers and "bad men" that he believes to be after him). Says he jumps out of the car, sees the dog in pain & puts a bullet in it's head. Then hops back in his car and drives off -
no need to wait for owner, look for owner, check for dog tag & number, maybe rush dog to a vet or even ask anyone watching if they might know the owner. Nope. Hops back in car and jets off. . . . . What a heartless d!%#. :mad:

Ok, Ok, ....perhaps NOT an "anger issue", but there is something terribly wrong with that man!

(I may have screwed up a detail, but think the story is pretty close to the one I read about this incident. I believe it was OP who shared it with someone, a reporter.)
BBM - Actually, he saw the dog's owner come out, but decided to drive off without even acknowledging him. He killed someone's pet, and then didn't see fit to even say sorry.

This is the same person who's been described as 'gentle and respectful' :confused:

And then, apropos of nothing, he told a story. He was driving on the outskirts of a black township, he said, when a dog ran under his wheels. In his rear-view mirror, he watched as it dragged itself off the road by its front legs, its hind legs useless to it now. Its back was clearly broken. He stopped and got out of his car to find that the dog's owner had come out on to the street, shouting, cursing, gesticulating. What to do? Oscar grabbed his gun, shot the dog through the back of the head and drove off.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/may/24/oscar-pistorius-end-of-rainbow
 
Vipers report is Stoltz's work not Leon Fine's!!

Yea, except it's like a computer, only the input data can be analyzed, which is what we're questioning here, just who were these 16 people who were close to OP, besides his ex gf from before ST. Were the Myers, or ST, or heck, what happened to the court documents of OP's past incidents of violent behaviour? So firing a gun out of the roof of your friend's car because you're peed off at a cop is acceptable behaviour, or threatening to break some guy's legs because he'd gone out with an ex gf, while he was off cavorting in EU with who knows who(some other model from all reports)??
 
WHAAAAAAAAAAAAT?!?!? :banghead: I did not know this. OP is the gift that keeps on giving. smh.


oh, and hello to everyone, been MIA but getting back on track :wave:

Hi SC, just providing a link to the story.

A few things bother me about it, firstly, he drove recklessly and ran over a dog (accidents can happen, but we have proof from witnesses and Reeva herself with a call to her mother, he drove like a maniac), secondly, that his first thought was to shoot the dog without talking to owner, say he was sorry, and thirdly, he shot the dog while the owner was shouting, cursing, gesticulating, maybe OP was frightened and shot the gun to ward off the owner. jmo

He was driving on the outskirts of a black township, he said, when a dog ran under his wheels. In his rear-view mirror, he watched as it dragged itself off the road by its front legs, its hind legs useless to it now. Its back was clearly broken. He stopped and got out of his car to find that the dog's owner had come out on to the street, shouting, cursing, gesticulating. What to do? Oscar grabbed his gun, shot the dog through the back of the head and drove off.


http://mg.co.za/article/2013-05-27-how-oscar-pistorius-fell-off-track-with-sa
 
BBM - Actually, he saw the dog's owner come out, but decided to drive off without even acknowledging him. He killed someone's pet, and then didn't see fit to even say sorry.

This is the same person who's been described as 'gentle and respectful' :confused:

And then, apropos of nothing, he told a story. He was driving on the outskirts of a black township, he said, when a dog ran under his wheels. In his rear-view mirror, he watched as it dragged itself off the road by its front legs, its hind legs useless to it now. Its back was clearly broken. He stopped and got out of his car to find that the dog's owner had come out on to the street, shouting, cursing, gesticulating. What to do? Oscar grabbed his gun, shot the dog through the back of the head and drove off.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/may/24/oscar-pistorius-end-of-rainbow

Sorry soozie, I've repeated with a link too. :blushing:
 
BBM - Actually, he saw the dog's owner come out, but decided to drive off without even acknowledging him. He killed someone's pet, and then didn't see fit to even say sorry.

This is the same person who's been described as 'gentle and respectful' :confused:

And then, apropos of nothing, he told a story. He was driving on the outskirts of a black township, he said, when a dog ran under his wheels. In his rear-view mirror, he watched as it dragged itself off the road by its front legs, its hind legs useless to it now. Its back was clearly broken. He stopped and got out of his car to find that the dog's owner had come out on to the street, shouting, cursing, gesticulating. What to do? Oscar grabbed his gun, shot the dog through the back of the head and drove off.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/may/24/oscar-pistorius-end-of-rainbow

That's even worse. :( (If Reeva had seen that, it would have been the last date)
 
BBM - Actually, he saw the dog's owner come out, but decided to drive off without even acknowledging him. He killed someone's pet, and then didn't see fit to even say sorry.

This is the same person who's been described as 'gentle and respectful' :confused:

And then, apropos of nothing, he told a story. He was driving on the outskirts of a black township, he said, when a dog ran under his wheels. In his rear-view mirror, he watched as it dragged itself off the road by its front legs, its hind legs useless to it now. Its back was clearly broken. He stopped and got out of his car to find that the dog's owner had come out on to the street, shouting, cursing, gesticulating. What to do? Oscar grabbed his gun, shot the dog through the back of the head and drove off.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/may/24/oscar-pistorius-end-of-rainbow

I really hope the judge is clued up to all this sort of stuff .. I'm not holding out much hope though :-/
 
Sorry of this has been asked and answered...still watching the last bits of the trial on YouTube....just soooo boring, I needed a break (and haven't been able to read all the new forum posts from today yet)...

The psychiatric evaluation mentioned that OP suffered (since shooting) "significant scores" in PTSD, Agoraphobia, Social Phobia AND Alcohol Abuse.
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rsbm rbbm

Agoraphobia? Oh no no no. Since the night OP killed Reeva he's been out and about. An agoraphobic doesn't go to restaurants, clubs, vacation resorts. Oh no.

I have experience with agoraphobics; they do not do these things. Social anxiety, yes, agoraphobia, no way.

This makes me wonder what exactly "significant scores" means. It also makes me wonder how far beyond relying on OP's self-reporting the evaluators traveled when assessing him.
 
Yea, except it's like a computer, only the input data can be analyzed, which is what we're questioning here, just who were these 16 people who were close to OP, besides his ex gf from before ST. Were the Myers, or ST, or heck, what happened to the court documents of OP's past incidents of violent behaviour? So firing a gun out of the roof of your friend's car because you're peed off at a cop is acceptable behaviour, or threatening to break some guy's legs because he'd gone out with an ex gf, while he was off cavorting in EU with who knows who(some other model from all reports)??

Again, I hope the judge is remembering all this stuff .. I'm not confident that she is, to be honest. I know she's got all the paperwork relating to everything that was said in court about these incidents, but she's hardly going to go wading back through everything, and my feeling is that her mind has been clouded by all this continual 'disabled = vulnerable' stuff .. we've had precious little else from the defence team over the past few weeks (including the period of assessment). All of the rest of it seems a very long time ago now, and I don't feel that the judge is really very astute or alert. I very much hope that she surprises me.
 
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