GUILTY UK - Brianna Ghey, 16, murdered in Culcheth Linear Park, Feb 2023 *2 teenagers charged*

[Mammaalli]

Mr Littler turns to February 12.

At 4.28pm, Girl X calls Boy Y.

RL: “It says rejected call. Do you remember receiving a call from Girl X that afternoon?”

Y: “Yes.”

RL: “Do you know why you rejected it?”

Y: “I wasn’t in a state of mind to answer the phone.”

RL: “Did you want to speak to Girl X at this time?”

Y: “No.”

RL: “Why not?”

Y: “I didn’t want to.”

RL: “Do you know why you didn’t want to?”

Y: “I was busy trying to deal with myself, so I didn’t have time to act with her on a phone call.”

RL: “What do you mean by act with her on a phone call?”

Y: “I mean I wouldn’t of been able to act as if everything is normal on a phone call, but I could act like that on messages.”

Would that be like the acting whilst typing in court instead of speaking by any chance ?

 

[Lubilu]

Quite. And yet Boy Y testified he only saw Girl X stab BG "about 3 times", while Girl X said she saw Boy Y stab BG "around 5 or 6 times".

Neither timeline makes sense to me. Both say they were alerted by Brianna screaming, but surely any screaming was likely to be right at the start of the attack, not towards the end especially when BG would have suffered the majority of her wounds.

So did it take c.20 seconds before they turned round to see why Brianna had screamed, just in time to see the final few stabs being inflicted? Would you not turn round immediately you heard someone scream?

Or are they saying Brianna was already stabbed 20 odd times before she screamed?

Is that accurate? I thought Boy Y said he heard noises as if something had been dropped, and I don't recall Girl X saying she heard a scream either (but I'd have to check back through the trial notes). Would you mind pasting the info if I've missed it (which is very possible!)?

ETA sorry if this seems like splitting hairs - I just had internally noted that I hadn't read anything about a scream/reaction from Brianna from either accused party. To my mind this implies things happened very quickly, if true

 

[Kasmeer]

RP: Did you ever say to X ‘I don’t want to do this’?

Y: No, I am unable to say no unless I am pushed to my limit, which is very hard because I’m very tolerant and very patient.

He was perfectly able to say no when it was a school night?

As it happened: Live Brianna Ghey murder trial updates from boy Y’s defence

Live updates from Manchester Crown Court from the trial of two youths accused of the murder of Brianna Ghey in Culcheth Linear Park in February

www.warringtonguardian.co.uk

I initially agreed with your comment but then I thought more and I get it now... although I'm not sure I can explain it in a way which makes sense to a non-autistic person (perhaps people with OCD might also relate a little). Not going out on a school night is a rule, so refusing to do that isn't "saying no" or rejecting someone else's wishes in his mind, it's just following a rule, and rules take precedence over anything else.


I absolutely know that anyone reading the above will say "but not killing people is also a rule!" (although that could assume guilt, which I'm trying not to do for sub judice reasons, so lets just take the following as purely informative on how autistic minds can work regarding rules, please).

To me, at least, "rule" is a poor term, but there isn't really another word which describes how habits (and indeed, rules laid down by parents which became habits) must be rigidly followed; if I go my entire school age life not going out on school nights, that is a RULE which cannot be broken. I'm not as rigid as some autistic people can be, so I can't immediately think of any current examples of such rules in my life, but I've no doubt there are some things which I just have to do in a particular way, it's just so normal to me it doesn't really register.

A mere law which has no presence in my day-to-day life is less of a rigid must-follow-it thing than a rule. Which is absolutely not saying I'd ever dream of hurting anyone, to be clear! A much more benign law to use as an example is piracy; copying things which are unavailable in a suitable (or reasonably priced) format hurts nobody so, erm, yes I did break that one a bit before Amazon mp3 came along; it wasn't a "rule" to me.

And, of course, every autistic person is different, just because my mind works this way, doesn't make it universal.

 

[Kasmeer]

RP: Could you see her arms?

Y: I would’ve seen her arms because I can see her body, but that doesn’t mean I can see her hands.

RP: Are you saying that as you crossed the field, you could not see her hands?

Y: While I’m running, my eyes go up and down with my body, making it harder to see objects clearly, and I am also unable to focus my eyesight as well as I can do not running, and since I was also not directly looking at her hands, that makes them no more than a blurry image that cannot be seen.

RP: So, as you ran across the field, are you saying you did not see X with a knife?

Y: I didn’t see her hand, so I didn’t see a knife.

As it happened: Live Brianna Ghey murder trial updates from boy Y’s defence

Live updates from Manchester Crown Court from the trial of two youths accused of the murder of Brianna Ghey in Culcheth Linear Park in February

www.warringtonguardian.co.uk

These are the type of smart a$$ responses I’m talking about.

Shortened a little and bolded for focus - sadly no, those are the kind of overly detailed/accurate responses which get autistic people accused of being smartasses If I'm under pressure, with someone who I know is trying to trip me up, I need to make my responses as clear as possible to get across how I could not have seen what he's thinking I've seen, and if he's still assuming I could see something that I could not, then I go into excessive details to make very clear why I could not have seen it.

I'm not saying that that is the case this time, it might be, it might not be, but it saddens me that a typically autistic way of responding is reduced by others to "smartass", as how then can any autistic person get a fair trial if this is a typical reaction?

 

[Dotta]

And I thought,
maybe Girl A was present during this school night?

What exactly is this "school night"?
A disco?

 

[Lubilu]

And I thought, maybe Girl A was present during this school night.

What exactly is this "school night"?
A disco?

'A school night' means that one has school the next day

 

[Dotta]

'A school night' means that one has school the next day

OMG
I would NEVER guess
I thought a wild evening school disco!!!
Phew!

 

[bobbymkii]

I initially agreed with your comment but then I thought more and I get it now... although I'm not sure I can explain it in a way which makes sense to a non-autistic person (perhaps people with OCD might also relate a little). Not going out on a school night is a rule, so refusing to do that isn't "saying no" or rejecting someone else's wishes in his mind, it's just following a rule, and rules take precedence over anything else.


I absolutely know that anyone reading the above will say "but not killing people is also a rule!" (although that could assume guilt, which I'm trying not to do for sub judice reasons, so lets just take the following as purely informative on how autistic minds can work regarding rules, please).

To me, at least, "rule" is a poor term, but there isn't really another word which describes how habits (and indeed, rules laid down by parents which became habits) must be rigidly followed; if I go my entire school age life not going out on school nights, that is a RULE which cannot be broken. I'm not as rigid as some autistic people can be, so I can't immediately think of any current examples of such rules in my life, but I've no doubt there are some things which I just have to do in a particular way, it's just so normal to me it doesn't really register.

A mere law which has no presence in my day-to-day life is less of a rigid must-follow-it thing than a rule. Which is absolutely not saying I'd ever dream of hurting anyone, to be clear! A much more benign law to use as an example is piracy; copying things which are unavailable in a suitable (or reasonably priced) format hurts nobody so, erm, yes I did break that one a bit before Amazon mp3 came along; it wasn't a "rule" to me.

And, of course, every autistic person is different, just because my mind works this way, doesn't make it universal.

I've found that a defining characteristic of boy Y is that he takes his education very seriously. I'm sure he was very insistent when he was remanded that he was able to sit his GCSE's and then go onto study A Levels while in the secure unit.

 

[Detective_Popcorn]

Is that accurate? I thought Boy Y said he heard noises as if something had been dropped, and I don't recall Girl X saying she heard a scream either (but I'd have to check back through the trial notes). Would you mind pasting the info if I've missed it (which is very possible!)?

ETA sorry if this seems like splitting hairs - I just had internally noted that I hadn't read anything about a scream/reaction from Brianna from either accused party. To my mind this implies things happened very quickly, if true

Brianna Ghey murder trial live updates as Girl X gives evidence

The 16-year-old transgender schoolgirl was fatally stabbed in a park and two teenagers are charged with her murder

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

Girl X mentions hearing a scream:

X: “When I walked off, I heard a noise. It sounded like someone was screaming. That’s when I turned round.”
RP: “Before you turned around, did you know who was screaming?”
X: “No.”
RP: “When you turned around, what did you see?”
X: “I saw Boy Y stabbing Brianna.”


You may be right about Boy Y hearing a noise rather than a scream - I am sure he referred to a scream, but I can't find a reference, so apologies if this was incorrect. Still, in his version the timeline to stab someone 20+ times while his back was turned is very fine. His evidence was "10, 20 seconds" unsighted; the police interviewer later says 30 seconds although this seems this is the interviewer's words, Y never says 30 seconds.

D: “Before you turned around, did you hear anything between them both?”
Y: “I just heard a thud on the floor.”
D: “How long do you think it went on for?”
Y: “Two seconds. I saw it, two seconds.”
D: “Did Girl X notice you turn around?”
Y: “Yeah.”
D: “Is that why she stopped?”

D: “How long did you have your back to them?”
Y: “10, 20 seconds."

D: “You said you went for a wee and it was like 30 seconds, and you turned back round. So 30 seconds for someone to stab another person 26 times.”
Y: “There wasn’t much noise going on around me. I only heard a thud of someone chucking a bag on the floor or something.”

 

[Lucy6226]

I'm so glad other folk with experience of autism have picked up on Boy Y's use of language.

My son is autistic and speaks in a very similar manner, very direct, pedantic at times and sometimes can come across as rude. His use of language often includes higher vocabulary than one might assume for a boy his age...he comes across as an old man at times!
However he types very informal at times, especially with his peers.

It may be that Boy Y has been instructed to type how he would say it verbally?

I know the selective mutism has been questioned here. I will say from my experience of being a social worker to children in secure units, it would be very hard to fake this for any period of time. I feel that Boy Y's mutism is due to trauma, either from the event itself or from being away from his family and routines - This would be extremely challenging for a person with autism imo.

 

[Honeybirdette]

DH: “Did you feel that you shouldn’t let Girl X down?”

The intermediary says: “Boy Y is shrugging at me, could you rephrase the question?”

DH: “Did you feel that you should not let Girl X down?”

Intermediary: “He’s pointing to I don’t understand the question.”

I wonder what he doesn’t understand about this question? It’s pretty basic

Brianna Ghey murder trial live updates as Girl X gives evidence

The 16-year-old transgender schoolgirl was fatally stabbed in a park and two teenagers are charged with her murder

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

 

[bobbymkii]

DH: “You bought it in a souvenir shop in [country], is that right?”
Y: “Yes.”
DH: “You told us the restrictions on having a knife in [country] are looser than in England, is that right?”
Y: “Yes.”
Nevermind the anonymity of the defendants (although I think most of us know their names by now), what's going on with the anonymity granted to an entire nation where Y is alleged to have bought this knife from?!

Brianna Ghey murder trial live updates as Girl X gives evidence

The 16-year-old transgender schoolgirl was fatally stabbed in a park and two teenagers are charged with her murder

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

 

[Lucy6226]

DH: “Did you feel that you shouldn’t let Girl X down?”

The intermediary says: “Boy Y is shrugging at me, could you rephrase the question?”

DH: “Did you feel that you should not let Girl X down?”

Intermediary: “He’s pointing to I don’t understand the question.”

I wonder what he doesn’t understand about this question? It’s pretty basic

Brianna Ghey murder trial live updates as Girl X gives evidence

The 16-year-old transgender schoolgirl was fatally stabbed in a park and two teenagers are charged with her murder

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

Due to his autism he might be taking the question literally. Like letting her down, as in picking her up and letting her down.
The question should have been rephrased to did you feel that you would disappoint or make girl x sad?

 

[Lucy6226]

DH: “You bought it in a souvenir shop in [country], is that right?”
Y: “Yes.”
DH: “You told us the restrictions on having a knife in [country] are looser than in England, is that right?”
Y: “Yes.”
Nevermind the anonymity of the defendants (although I think most of us know their names by now), what's going on with the anonymity granted to an entire nation where Y is alleged to have bought this knife from?!

Brianna Ghey murder trial live updates as Girl X gives evidence

The 16-year-old transgender schoolgirl was fatally stabbed in a park and two teenagers are charged with her murder

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

So others don't know where to easily purchase knives from

 

[Mirabel091]

I've noticed he often says he wasn't sure how he felt, or how he would describe feeling. There is a condition called alexithymia that may co-occur with autism. I'm not saying he has that, but if he does, it could explain some of his language around these questions.

 

[Honeybirdette]

Due to his autism he might be taking the question literally. Like letting her down, as in picking her up and letting her down.
The question should have been rephrased to did you feel that you would disappoint or make girl x sad?

No. He understands the phrase perfectly well because he used it himself only minuites before.

DH: “I want to start by asking you some questions about the 11th of February, the day that Brianna was killed. Why did you agree to go to Culcheth that day?”

Y: “Girl X had asked me to.”

DH: “But why did you agree to that?”

Y: “Because I had said no to her for previous dates.”

DH: “So what? Why does that matter?”

Y: “I felt I was letting her down.”

Brianna Ghey murder trial live updates as Girl X gives evidence

The 16-year-old transgender schoolgirl was fatally stabbed in a park and two teenagers are charged with her murder

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

 

[Dotta]

Dbm

 

[Alyce]

DH: “You asked Girl X, you bringing a knife? Why did you ask Girl X whether she was bringing a knife?”

Intermediary: “He’s just looking back through the messages.”

DH: “Take your time Boy Y.”

Y: “I think I was just returning the question, like small talk.”

Brianna Ghey murder trial live updates as Girl X gives evidence

The 16-year-old transgender schoolgirl was fatally stabbed in a park and two teenagers are charged with her murder

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

How sad - discussing taking lethal weapons with them is considered just small talk to him !

 

[Lucy6226]

No. He understands the phrase perfectly well because he used it himself only minuites before.

DH: “I want to start by asking you some questions about the 11th of February, the day that Brianna was killed. Why did you agree to go to Culcheth that day?”

Y: “Girl X had asked me to.”

DH: “But why did you agree to that?”

Y: “Because I had said no to her for previous dates.”

DH: “So what? Why does that matter?”

Y: “I felt I was letting her down.”

Brianna Ghey murder trial live updates as Girl X gives evidence

The 16-year-old transgender schoolgirl was fatally stabbed in a park and two teenagers are charged with her murder

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

Ah I missed that...yeah that is weird he would use it in context and then claim to not understand the question

 

[Alyce]

I think he's getting rattled - lots of don't understand and breaks