GUILTY UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #25

Discussion in 'Recently Sentenced and Beyond' started by cybervampira, Feb 2, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Loobyloo

    Loobyloo Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    242
    Likes Received:
    1,403
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Probably stuck on debating murder vs manslaughter, as they've not yet been given the option of reaching a majority verdict. Today they were still looking for a unanimous one. Perhaps that will change tomorrow, weather permitting of course.
     


  2. ChiCubs2016

    ChiCubs2016 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,346
    Likes Received:
    11,359
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I have another question for my UK friends! I talked to a couple friends this weekend about this case. One is a police detective. He was curious about how charges are decided. Do detectives present a list of crimes to the CPS and they determine what the charges will be? For instance if PR was being charged in the US, the charges would have been three or four pages long. Maybe not all would have gone to trial but it would give the Defense some incentive to plea. Hope my question makes sense.
     
  3. Loobyloo

    Loobyloo Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    242
    Likes Received:
    1,403
    Trophy Points:
    93
    I've been trying to find out whether there's any official guidance on how long a jury should be left seeking a unanimous verdict, before the judge intervenes to say a majority verdict would be acceptable. It seems it's entirely up to the judge's...um, judgement - as long as the jury has been retired for at least 2 hours (!).

    No court shall accept a verdict by virtue of subsection (1) or (2) above unless it appears to the court that the jury have had such period of time for deliberation as the court thinks reasonable having regard to the nature and complexity of the case; and the Crown Court shall in any event not accept such a verdict unless it appears to the court that the jury have had at least two hours for deliberation.​
    Juries Act 1974 - Majority Verdicts
    I suppose with the case being as serious as murder, & the evidence certainly being complex, we could be in for a long wait.

    (edited to clarify link)
     
  4. catgreen

    catgreen Active Member

    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    217
    Trophy Points:
    33
    Brilliant post @RosalindaA, you have really expressed exactly how I feel and I am shocked that quite so many people keep saying 'the timing of the screams don't add up', I don't expect them to!
     
  5. RosalindaA

    RosalindaA Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    364
    Likes Received:
    1,518
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Hi Lyall, I haven't watched the series, but I have heard of the case. I must admit it's such a horrifying case and Kim must have suffered so much that it's one of those that I find hard to read about. It's not much comfort but we can hope in Libby's case that whatever happened was quick. I probably will watch it at some point, when I'm feeling strong, as again it's good to watch skilled investigators "get their guy". I would say from what I know of the case, it illustrates another pretty sound principle, that if someone goes missing, especially a woman, that the last person (usually a man) known to be with her is probably your prime suspect 99.9% of the time.
    And of course it helps when as in Kim's case when that man happens to be 100% crazy. I hope he never gets out.

    I'm sure it has helped Libby's family that the police/CPS did not bottle out and went for murder. I think I (if I was legally able to?) would have also charged PR with kidnapping which would allow for another fairly hefty jail term and maybe compensate if the jury waters things down to manslaughter. They seemed confident that the jury would convict of murder. I don't think anyone would dispute the fact that PR's intent in putting/inviting/luring Libby into his car was to abduct and rape her. I feel sorry for police, I think they have really tried to advocate for Libby here, I can imagine they will feel slapped in the face if the jury reject murder. I should add that I am fully in favour of the jury taking their time and they know so much more than we do. But I think we cannot know exactly what PR did to Libby, he certainly will never tell the truth, his type never do. That shouldn't mean he gets away with it, a jury can infer to a certain extent.

    And I agree with Steve that the law is not infallible. We change the law as society recognises that certain laws operate against justice. The rape laws and the sentencing at present here largely do not result in justice for the great majority of victims, ie women and children in the vast majority of cases. If rape happened frequently to men, the laws and sentencing would be different, no question. And what really angers me is the "commit one crime, get one free (or two or three)" approach to sentencing. I do not want to see any concurrent sentences for PR, it's an insult to all his victims.
     
  6. Niner

    Niner Long time Websleuther

    Messages:
    57,061
    Likes Received:
    166,311
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Tuesday, Feb. 9th:
    *Trial continues (Day 17)-VERDICT WATCH! (Day 4) (@ 10:30am UK) – UK – Liberty “Libby” Anna Squire (21) (last seen Jan. 31, 2019 outside Welly Club in Hull; found Mar. 20, 2019 from Grimsby Docks in the Humber Estuary) - *Pawel P. Relowicz (24/now 25) arrested (Feb. 6, 2019 on suspicion of abduction) officially charged (Oct. 30, 2019) with murder & rape. No plea entered yet. Not guilty plea entered on Jan. 12, 2021.
    Trial began on Jan. 12, 2021. Trial will be in Sheffield. Richard Wright QC will lead, Mr. Woolfall prosecutor. Oliver Saxby QC for defense. Trial expected to last 6 weeks. Jury: 5 men & 7 women. Day 1 (4/2/21) of deliberations: 2 hours. Day 2 (5/2/21) of deliberations: 5 ½ hours. Day 3 (8/2/21) of deliberations: 5 hours 15 mins. Total deliberations: 12 hours 45 mins. (Reporter has 10 hours of deliberations).
    Was originally charged (18/3/19 & 10/5/19) with 5 counts of burglary, 4 counts of voyeurism, 3 counts of outraging public decency & 1 count of receiving stolen goods. On Aug. 12, 2019 plead guilty to 9 charges including voyeurism (4 counts), outraging public decency (2 counts) & burglary (3 counts). Relowicz jailed for 8½ years.

    Trial Day 1-15 & Deliberations (12/1/21 - 5/2/21) reference post #849 here:
    VERDICT WATCH - UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #24

    Feb 8th Monday, Day 16 of Verdict Watch (Day 3): All jury members have now arrived so it looks like they can continue to consider their verdict. Justice Lambert says she will “keep an eye on the weather” and jurors will have an earlier finish today. Deliberations started 10:30am. At 3:45pm: No verdicts coming today. Jury has now been sent home for the day & will continue their deliberations from 10.30am tomorrow, 9/2/21.
     
  7. Ruthbullock

    Ruthbullock Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,466
    Likes Received:
    6,609
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Lots of snow here- what’s in like in Sheffield?
     
  8. Joolz1975

    Joolz1975 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,653
    Likes Received:
    9,867
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Hardly any, just a light sprinkling from yesterday evening.
     
  9. Ruthbullock

    Ruthbullock Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,466
    Likes Received:
    6,609
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That’s great news, thanks
     
  10. jamjim

    jamjim Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,009
    Likes Received:
    22,614
    Trophy Points:
    113
  11. Newthoughts

    Newthoughts Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,154
    Likes Received:
    14,014
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Really brilliant post. It's exactly what I think too. That you cannot focus on one piece of evidence. The whole night is important.
     
  12. Edinlass

    Edinlass On Time Out

    Messages:
    2,106
    Likes Received:
    10,512
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yeah I think I meant to use the word unanimous
     
    Marg from Oz and ChiCubs2016 like this.
  13. JosieJo

    JosieJo Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,669
    Likes Received:
    9,617
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Good news
     
  14. Zazie

    Zazie Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    1,295
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Great comparison - Peter Madsen changed his ludicrous defence to fit every new piece of evidence that was found. For instance he started out saying that the hatch hit Kim's head, but when her poor head was found without fractures, the cause became poisoning from fumes. Yet they couldn't hold his changing stories against him, it was his right.

    I recently read Kim Wall's biography by her mum Ingrid (also a journalist). It's very detailed and dignified and has two interweaving timelines - the story of Kim's life (amazing in its own right) alongside the story of the disappearance, subsequent investigation and trial. Gradually and ominously, Kim's timeline catches up with the other. An unfathomable crime and the one that brought me here. Agree the series is excellent.
     
  15. Lyall0814

    Lyall0814 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    100
    Likes Received:
    686
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Thanks Zazie. I'll get Ingrid's book. I thought the series made a wise move when they decided to never show Madsen on screen.
     
  16. Mommysleuth11

    Mommysleuth11 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    479
    Likes Received:
    3,797
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Its not the timing of the screams that give me personally the doubts, its the lack of physical time and the distances that has to be covered plus acts committed. I think many people also feel this.
    I also had an interesting conversation with another person yesterday, who very much doubted the timescales being possible, who suggested to me that, if it were their daughter and given it isn't possible for us to know what did actually happen. If, just if PR wasn't responsible for her death at his hand, would you really want to live out your days, imagining a painful, terrifying attack as her last moments on earth, or would you rather have the knowledge that it was a tragic accident (misadventure) and it made me think for a moment about why I wanted him to be guilty so much?
    ( Edited to clarify they were talking directly in regards to Murder and not in relation to rape.)
    I have every faith that the good men and women of the jury will come to the right verdict in the case, whatever that should be. It is them who have sworn the oath and heard ALL of the evidence of course. I'm sure they as much as us, want Justice done for Libby and PR punished for what ever crimes he has committed.
     
  17. bos

    bos Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    550
    Likes Received:
    2,633
    Trophy Points:
    93
    I’ve been wondering about the decision not to include abduction/kidnapping as a separate charge. My interpretation of CPS guidance to prosecute is where abduction took place in order to facilitate sexual assault, it’s better to go with the substantive charge, in this case rape. This is to a) make case easier to present for clarity b)if minimum sentences run concurrently, the kidnap offence attracts less custodial time than the rape offence so doesn’t add any more to a minimum term. Removing/isolating a victim to commit a sexual crime is an aggravating factor, which, taken with other aggravating factors can increase the totality of the rape charge thereby allowing extension of sentence for the rape. If the kidnap occurred over 2 or more days, that would attract a greater minimum term & more likely to incur a separate charge.

    My interpretation MOO based on skim reading/no legal background
     
  18. jamjim

    jamjim Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,009
    Likes Received:
    22,614
    Trophy Points:
    113
    10:14
    Little snow in Sheffield

    This is the scene at Sheffield Crown Court this morning.

    [​IMG]

    There is no official word on whether the jury members have all arrived and will continue their deliberations but it doesn't look bad weather-wise.

    Libby Squire murder trial updates as jury out for fourth day
     
  19. Tortoise

    Tortoise Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    18,699
    Likes Received:
    82,240
    Trophy Points:
    113
  20. VicBlazey

    VicBlazey Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    132
    Likes Received:
    1,536
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Let's hope today is the day.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page



  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice