Deceased/Not Found UK - Margaret Fleming, 19, Inverclyde, Scotland, 17 Dec 1999 *Guilty*

[Lolabear]

Wow, this is bad:



http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/742733/Missing-woman-Margaret-Fleming-police-body-search

If the Express is correct, she was never reported missing by the carers. Her disappearance was discovered almost by accident.

Poor Margaret.

Poor woman..not looking good is it

 

[MelmothTheLost]

It is so hard for me to imagine that someone can attend college while she also has severe enough learning disabilities where she needs full-time carers. Not trying to pretend I know a whole lot about learning disabilities, so please someone do explain to me how this is possible. Thanks.

Yes, this has me puzzled as well. Here's a link about the college:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Watt_College

This is clearly not a special needs establishment so like you I wonder how one reconciles attending an apparently mainstream college with learning disabilities seeming to require full time care.

In the BBC link it mentioned the carers being close friends of the family, which suggests it's at least possible they were not vetted or checked by anyone for suitability.

I wonder if either of her grandparents is still alive to provide some background to what happened. I'm guessing they would be in their late 70s or early 80s by now.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

This is clearly not a special needs establishment so like you I wonder how one reconciles attending an apparently mainstream college with learning disabilities seeming to require full time care.

The college does in fact offer a number of courses "for adults with additional needs".

http://www.westcollegescotland.ac.u...urses/learner-development/enterprising-events
http://www.westcollegescotland.ac.uk/courses/course-directory/courses/learner-development/pathways-1
http://www.westcollegescotland.ac.uk/courses/course-directory/courses/learner-development/pathways-2
http://www.westcollegescotland.ac.u...ctory/courses/learner-development/work-prep-1

It seems likely that she attended one of these courses, most of which which do say in the blurb that they are intended for students who have the potential ability to travel independently. I'm guessing this means getting themselves to and from college or a job on the bus or tram rather than heading for Katmandu.

 

[Deleted member 178385]

Yep, they do offer additional support needs provision (including 1 to 1 support) but going by the fact they state 'specific learning differences' I would think they probably don't cater for more severe learning disabilities.

 

[Legally Bland]

It looks like there are transport issues in the area. May have been different '96 - '98 though.

INVERKIP AND WEMYSS BAY COMMUNITY COUNCIL
Minutes of the Business Meeting held on Thursday 11th of August 2011 in the Inverkip Hotel at 7.30pm

[...]

Avril Jones who lives at the cottages at Brueacre, Inverkip, said she lies in bed at night with her fingers crossed hoping not to be visited by a speeding car or motorcycle. She added this year hadn’t been too bad but over the past two years there had been twenty-two incidents at her cottage. She also said there were cyclists on the footpath and if you forget to look as you step out, whoosh – there goes a cyclist.

[...]

Through buses not stopping on the A78 at Inverkip:
At June’s meeting Avril Jones made an impassioned plea for the reinstatement of buses that would stop at Bankfoot, Bridgend and the Cottages, Inverkip.

[...]

Avril Jones questioned Cllr Wilson’s description of the situation as ‘complex’. Why she asked. Andy Lynch said the government is trying to get us to go green and use public transport. Avril Jones read from a prepared statement. She has recently had 22 medical appointments and has had to cancel 3 and then wait 7 weeks for another appointment. She only goes out to appointments, nowhere else. She cited the example of an 1130 appointment – to get to the hospital she leaves home with a neighbour at 0820 and has to sit about the hospital. She wished to visit the Tall Ships event – trains every15 minutes and 20+ buses passed her door. She had no transport and felt totally abandoned. She applied to My Bus but because she isn’t over 80, isn’t blind and has no war pension she isn’t eligible for a My Bus pass. Why can’t Hail and Ride be reinstated she asked. She also said she claimed no benefits.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...dbGkTSFJ0iORZ0aXw&sig2=d_N4p0KNWYFf5xG6Wf34wA

 

[Mummywithissues]

I'm my mums carer, as she has terminal cancer, (although has been classed as terminal for 9 yrs this coming Feb). If it's family or friends of family who are her carers, then it's hard to imagine a good outcome, when the lady hasn't been seen in so long by anyone else. I don't buy the secret life story... JMO

 

[MissJoshuaTree]

From the above link:
"Officers want to hear from anyone who knew Ms Fleming from her college days.
Ms Fleming, who is believed to have learning difficulties, is thought to have attended James Watt College in Greenock between 1996 and 1998."

It is so hard for me to imagine that someone can attend college while she also has severe enough learning disabilities where she needs full-time carers. Not trying to pretend I know a whole lot about learning disabilities, so please someone do explain to me how this is possible. Thanks.

Yes it is possible for people with severe learning & physical disabilities to go to college, I am a teaching assistant to pupils with Special Educational Needs (SEN) most do go on to study at college & have a full-time TA with them.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

Yes it is possible for people with severe learning & physical disabilities to go to college, I am a teaching assistant to pupils with Special Educational Needs (SEN) most do go on to study at college & have a full-time TA with them.

As a matter of interest, what sort of courses do people with severe learning disabilities go on to study? What work do they go into?

What would be regarded as a severe learning disability?

 

[Ironside]

"DCI Livingstone added: 'There's no evidence of any crime being committed...'" (from the earlier linked Daily Fail article) but yet they are digging up the garden??
:thinking:

Police Scotland tend to keep their cards close to their chest, until they can prove a crime they won't directly accuse anyone and act as though it is a routine thing to just dig up a garden.

I'd be interested to know what brought the police to the door in the first place. There was a very recent case in Troon where a disabled woman was dead in her bed for months and was only discovered when neighbours complained about the smell, her sister has since been charged with murder. I wonder are they checking up on all vulnerable people that haven't been heard from in a while?
Link to the Troon story - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-38089035

Edit: nope, the dates don't match up, bed woman was discovered 10th November, enquiries began for Inverkip lady 28th October.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

I'd be interested to know what brought the police to the door in the first place.

The involvement of the police right at the start suggests this was more than a routine visit. I'm guessing that even if someone at social services or whathaveyou finally found a long misplaced file that would not have triggered police involvement immediately. It sounds like there's been a tip-off of some sort.

Is the switch from DLA to PIP a national thing? I thought social care was one of the devolved areas so Scotland may have other arrangements in place anyway.

 

[tronixx]

Newbie here so please excuse any blunders I may make. I just cannot get to grips with this statement, am I not thinking straight?
Perhaps I am dimmer than I thought. This is in reply to garden being dug up. I am dimmer than I thought.

 

[Deleted member 178385]

As a matter of interest, what sort of courses do people with severe learning disabilities go on to study? What work do they go into?

What would be regarded as a severe learning disability?

This is a reasonable summary of severe learning disability:

Someone who has a severe learning disability will:

have little or no speech
find it very difficult to learn new skills
need support with daily activities such as dressing, washing, eating and keeping safe
have difficulties with social skills
need life-long support

 

[eneri12]

From the above link:
"Officers want to hear from anyone who knew Ms Fleming from her college days.
Ms Fleming, who is believed to have learning difficulties, is thought to have attended James Watt College in Greenock between 1996 and 1998."

It is so hard for me to imagine that someone can attend college while she also has severe enough learning disabilities where she needs full-time carers. Not trying to pretend I know a whole lot about learning disabilities, so please someone do explain to me how this is possible. Thanks.

Colleges run courses here specifically for adults and young people with learning disabilities. Worked in learning disabilities services for 12 years.

Sent from my F5121 using Tapatalk

 

[Ironside]

Newbie here so please excuse any blunders I may make. I just cannot get to grips with this statement, am I not thinking straight?
Perhaps I am dimmer than I thought. This is in reply to garden being dug up. I am dimmer than I thought.

What statement do you mean? What confuses you about it?

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Newbie here so please excuse any blunders I may make. I just cannot get to grips with this statement, am I not thinking straight?
Perhaps I am dimmer than I thought. This is in reply to garden being dug up. I am dimmer than I thought.

Welcome, Tronixx, think I have seen you on Corrie's thread. They must have good reason to dig up the garden and I won't be surprised if they find Margaret there. Hopefully there'll be an update soon.

 

[eneri12]

This case isn't looking very good. If it is to do With DLA changing to PIP that would explain social work looking into it. It could also be that her GP practice was going through patient records and realised they'd had no contact with her for years which could lead to a call being put in to social work as she would be classed as vulnerable.
I'd think if police were brought in that social work has made attempts to contact and physically see this lady but haven't been able to, hence bringing in the police.

Sent from my F5121 using Tapatalk

 

[Ironside]

Is it possible to claim DLA for that long without anyone having to see you, ever? I know if you're claiming DLA for a learning disability it's unlikely to change but it just seems incredible that an adult can be unmissed for so long. I dread to think how many other vulnerable people could be taken advantage of it is that easy to get away with benefit fraud.

 

[MissJoshuaTree]

As a matter of interest, what sort of courses do people with severe learning disabilities go on to study? What work do they go into?

What would be regarded as a severe learning disability?

The child I am thinking of that went from our school went on to study animal care, not A level courses but still getting qualifications, the child could not even talk without a speech aid & was in a wheelchair so had to have full-time help, 1:1 support. I'm not sure she will go on to get a job but is in full time education until she is 18. I have worked with other children who have gone on to university even though they have moderate-severe disabilities.

 

[Mummywithissues]

Is it possible to claim DLA for that long without anyone having to see you, ever? I know if you're claiming DLA for a learning disability it's unlikely to change but it just seems incredible that an adult can be unmissed for so long. I dread to think how many other vulnerable people could be taken advantage of it is that easy to get away with benefit fraud.

My brother has aspergers, (he's 37) and he receives DLA, at the lower tier, and has done for approx 10 yrs. as far as I know, he's never been reassessed or seen again since he first claimed... even with the new PIP stuff coming in to force.

As my mums carer, I've had 2 assessments in 6 years (one every 3 yrs) but that is mostly for my own mental health and to make sure I'm coping ok with everything.

Honestly, my family isn't falling apart around me lol, although it may seem that way based on my last two posts ��

Explains my username somewhat.

 

[Deleted member 178385]

Is it possible to claim DLA for that long without anyone having to see you, ever? I know if you're claiming DLA for a learning disability it's unlikely to change but it just seems incredible that an adult can be unmissed for so long. I dread to think how many other vulnerable people could be taken advantage of it is that easy to get away with benefit fraud.

As there are two carers, it's unlikely they were just getting Carers Allowance as only one person can claim that and it's only about £60 a week. Margaret might have also been claiming Direct Payments from the local authority though, which can be used to employ carers directly. The council can ask for paperwork and/or to visit at any time to check your needs are still being met so it's possible that they were unable to contact Margaret/arrange a visit and may have sent social services round to check on welfare? This is pure speculation on my part though, just to be clear!