Urs Von Aesch/Ylenia Llenard Connection?

[docwho3]

Did I miss something somewhere? What reward/ransom money was collected?

". . . September 16th 2007 the swiss police confirmed that the found body was in fact the remains of Ylenia. The man who found the corpse on his own has received a reward of approx. $20,000.00. The sum was gathered by authorities and relatives to keep the search going . . ."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urs_Hans_Von_Aesch

If some of you are commenting about this quote from a member post:
" . . . All I see that we have with ANY foundation is a missing child, parents who left the kiddies alone, a white van, one dead man, one dead child, one injured man in the hospital (how's that guy doing, can he talk yet?), and someone else who collected the reward/ransom (same thing without the risk) money. . . ."

OK let me explain as best I can.

If you have been reading the previous posts in this thread you know we have been discussing the connection between the mccann case and the kidnap, murder of another child and the subsequent suicide of the perp in that case.

AfterMidnight correct me where I get it wrong.

. . . All I see that we have with ANY foundation is a missing child. . .

That would be Madeleine I think.

. . . parents who left the kiddies alone . .

That would be the mccann parents I think.

. . . a white van, . . .

that would be either the white van the perp drove in the murder case of the little girl and/ or the white van which was seen parked near the mccanns apartment. The two vans could be one and the same according to news reports.

. . . one dead man. . .

That would be Urs Hans von Aesch, the alleged murderer of the 5 year old little girl and who was alleged to have been vacationing where the mccanns were when Madeleine disappeared.

. . . one dead child, . . .

I think would be Ylenia Lenhard whose body was discovered in switzerland.

. . . one injured man in the hospital (how's that guy doing, can he talk yet?), . . .

That would be the man shot and injured by von Aesch before he suicided. The injured man was last known to be in hospital recovering.

. . . and someone else who collected the reward/ransom (same thing without the risk) money. . .

I already answered this part farther above in the post.

Remember this thread is about exploring the connection between the two cases.

 

[Shazza]

". . . September 16th 2007 the swiss police confirmed that the found body was in fact the remains of Ylenia. The man who found the corpse on his own has received a reward of approx. $20,000.00. The sum was gathered by authorities and relatives to keep the search going . . ."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urs_Hans_Von_Aesch

This reward money had nothing to do with Madelaines case as suggested in an earlier post, this case is doing everyones head in, just cant keep up with all the lies, innuendos etc.

 

[docwho3]

I edited my post you might want to read it again.

 

[Shazza]

I edited my post you might want to read it again.

Thanks docwho3, you have explained it well and I understand, you have to forgive me for jumping the gun, normally I dont need things spelt out to me, but with this case I find I need all the help I can get as there is so much information on this forum and most of it has not been proven as fact yet. I am finding it a little hard to keep up with all the goings on.

 

[docwho3]

Thanks docwho3, you have explained it well and I understand, you have to forgive me for jumping the gun, normally I dont need things spelt out to me, but with this case I find I need all the help I can get as there is so much information on this forum and most of it has not been proven as fact yet. I am finding it a little hard to keep up with all the goings on.

You are most welcome. I do not blame you for having your head spinning over this case. This case is a very messy one.

 

[Shazza]

You are most welcome. I do not blame you for having your head spinning over this case. This case is a very messy one.

It sure is messy Doc.

If everyone who was there the night Madelaine disappeared all told the truth, the case would probably be over, Madelaine would either be back with her parents or put to rest as she should be. I wish it was that easy, but there are people who are not telling the truth and now everything is up in the air. Tell me if you thing that I am asking too much, I just cant believe the way this case is unfolding, call me naive, emotional or whatever, I just want the best for Madelaine whether it is a decent burial or the return to her parents or put in foster care or housed with relatives. Sounds so simple, but yet I cannot see this being solved in the near future.

 

[Morag]

". . . September 16th 2007 the swiss police confirmed that the found body was in fact the remains of Ylenia. The man who found the corpse on his own has received a reward of approx. $20,000.00. The sum was gathered by authorities and relatives to keep the search going . . ."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urs_Hans_Von_Aesch

The Madeleine fund is 100+ times larger than the sum gathered by advocates for little Ylenia. Mr. McCann said that the Madeleine fund was to continue searches after the police search ended. And the Madeleine fund is not a reward for finding Madeleine, it is a fund to look for Madeleine. So why is it virtually unspent? Why not charter a jet, fill it with some of the many who would love to help, put them up in a hotel and have them walk the grid in various places? Or turn the money over to PJ and have them get the Portuguese army (is there one?) involved. That little child is probably buried within a few miles of Praia da Luz, and no one is really looking for her anymore. Spend the money!

 

[mjak]

WHY would 2 intelligent parents leave the kiddies alone like that when there was no reason? It wasn't money, I don't believe. And, if they had felt they were being stalked, all the more reason not to. WHY did they? Did they want their children taken? Did they sell one of them? Were they stupid? Ignorant? Selfish? I don't believe any of the foregoing. I believe there was a REASON they did what they did, leaving them alone, knowing full well all of the consequences. The only scenerio that makes any sense to me is they were working in conjunction with the police or someone, in order to entrap a pedophile/pedophile ring, using their children as bait. The problem is, the "sting" went wrong and Madeleine disappeared when that wasn't supposed to happen.

quote]

Sorry but I think this theory is absolutly unbelievable. It is both morally and ethcially reprehensable that any law enforcement agency anywhere would use actually children in a sting like this. It is even more reprehensable that any parents would willingly alow there children to be a party to this. I just do not believe this would ever happen.

mjak

 

[docwho3]

I know this comment is sort of my taking a little side moment but I wanted to say that post part is one of the better written bits of case summary/description/venting I have recently seen. (Even the word sarcasm came to mind but not in a bad way.) It took awhile for it to sink into my tired brain but later I found myself recalling that bit and nodding my head and even smiling a bit. In a case where there hasn't been all that much to smile about that bit, serious as it was, sort of hit the spot.

. . .I ask myself, what do we have here? One parent gets fed up, offs the kid, tells the spouse, then they scramble around to hide the body in a frig/ice chest/makeshift grave/whatever and scream abduction. Then they have friends who set up a fund and they sell posters and bracelets on behalf of their missing child. If they were guilty, surely they would see the idiocy in that? Maybe not. Some of my doctors aren't that bright either and I have to give them clues to the latest treatments. At any rate, 25 dqys later they rent a car and load the body in the boot? A wee bit small, eh? Now we "hear/read" about body fluids, hair, whatever the traffic will bear, and we are supposed to believe it. Maybe. Maybe they dug up the body in the dead of night, under cover of a cloudy night when the rest of the world was sleeping and transported the remains to the trunk of the car where the hair fell out, body fluids leaked and left clues up the wazoo. Maybe the body was in a suitcase which had been sitting somewhere for a while and placed innocently in the trunk and leaked all over, but the hair wouldn't have fallen out of the suitcase so that presents a wee problem.

They couldn't have chopped her up or they would have (would they?) found traces of blood in the bathtub, the usual chopping place. If they froze the body it wouldn't have fit in the suitcase, unless, ahah, it was a big one like I had. She was a small child after all.

Next step is - where do you dump the suitcase? One that big is bound to cause problems. Some imbecile is bound to find it and open it. For weeks there was a large duffle bag in a small wooded area on the exit ramp of a major highway I travel. I wouldn't go near the thing. This case warned me off of that. I could spend the rest of my life explaining why I was interest in that "particular" bag. No thanks.

Tomorrow is another day. Hopefully I will have more brain cells to work with. I think Colomom ought to get in here with her thoughts.

 

[AfterMidnight]

Sorry but I think this theory is absolutly unbelievable. It is both morally and ethcially reprehensable that any law enforcement agency anywhere would use actually children in a sting like this. It is even more reprehensable that any parents would willingly alow there children to be a party to this. I just do not believe this would ever happen.

mjak

Is it less reprehensible for parents to kill their own child, hide the body, move the body, then possibly scatter body parts all over Europe?

 

[colomom]

Morning folks....

I do want to contribute a bit to this discussion.

I have thought about this alot...alot,alot,alot. I have tried to examine it from every possible angle and tried to consider every scenario. And I keep coming back to a few basic things:

1. http://missingchild.wordpress.com/2007/09/14/homicide-rates-in-the-us-infanticide/

Of all children under age 5 murdered from 1976-2005 –

31% were killed by fathers
29% were killed by mothers
23% were killed by male acquaintances
7% were killed by other relatives
3% were killed by strangers

Of course this is assuming that Madeleine has been killed, which I do believe she has been.

Kidnapping statistics are even stronger towards parental/someone known to the child involvement:

Justice Department statistics of kidnapped children in America also reports 24% of all kidnapping cases are "stranger-kidnappings", compared with 49% family kidnappings, and 27% acquaintance kidnappings.

2. After watching every video, looking at every picture, reading every article this "feels" right to me:

Gerry McCann suffers from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder

and Kate from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battered_wife_syndrome

3. Adolph Hitler said:

“If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed”

http://thinkexist.com/quotation/if_you_tell_a_big_enough_lie_and_tell_it/195660.html

4. Occam's razor:

"All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the right one."

5. As much as it offends our senses (filicide is society's most aberrant act) and as much as we want to deny that parents could be responsible....it happens all the time.

Susan Smith, Diane Downs, Andrea Yates, Marilyn Lemak, Darlie Routier, Marco Barrera, Christian Longo, Charles Rothenberg, John Battaglia..the list is endless.

And here, in my backyard, yesterday....

3-Year-Old Stuffed In Bag, Dumped In Alley

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/14180469/detail.html

While my gut tells me it was not premeditated murder, I think it may have been a little bitty girl on the receiving end of a temper tantrum.

6. I have wondered why, if the LE in PDL wanted to frame someone for this why they didn't just hang it on Robert Murat? If LE was being pressured by powerful people to allow the McCanns to skate that seems to me to be the most simple solution, right? Wrong, guess what would be a bit easier? Blame it on a dead man.... A dead man that had already kidnapped a small blond girl and who may have been in the area at the time and whose vehicle may have been spotted there and who buried his victim in a remote place and whose body would probably never had been discovered if not for wild animals digging up the grave and a wandering stranger....very convenient.

 

[Texana]

The recurrent thought I have is that Von Aesch may not have been involved at all in Madeleine's disappearance, but as a pedophile, he may have been inspired to copycat it.

 

[AfterMidnight]

Morning folks....

I do want to contribute a bit to this discussion.

I have thought about this alot...alot,alot,alot. I have tried to examine it from every possible angle and tried to consider every scenario. And I keep coming back to a few basic things:

1. http://missingchild.wordpress.com/2007/09/14/homicide-rates-in-the-us-infanticide/

Of all children under age 5 murdered from 1976-2005 –

31% were killed by fathers
29% were killed by mothers
23% were killed by male acquaintances
7% were killed by other relatives
3% were killed by strangers

Of course this is assuming that Madeleine has been killed, which I do believe she has been.

Kidnapping statistics are even stronger towards parental/someone known to the child involvement:

Justice Department statistics of kidnapped children in America also reports 24% of all kidnapping cases are "stranger-kidnappings", compared with 49% family kidnappings, and 27% acquaintance kidnappings.

2. After watching every video, looking at every picture, reading every article this "feels" right to me:

Gerry McCann suffers from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder

and Kate from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battered_wife_syndrome

3. Adolph Hitler said:

“If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed”

http://thinkexist.com/quotation/if_you_tell_a_big_enough_lie_and_tell_it/195660.html

4. Occam's razor:

"All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the right one."

5. As much as it offends our senses (filicide is society's most aberrant act) and as much as we want to deny that parents could be responsible....it happens all the time.

Susan Smith, Diane Downs, Andrea Yates, Marilyn Lemak, Darlie Routier, Marco Barrera, Christian Longo, Charles Rothenberg, John Battaglia..the list is endless.

And here, in my backyard, yesterday....

3-Year-Old Stuffed In Bag, Dumped In Alley

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/14180469/detail.html

While my gut tells me it was not premeditated murder, I think it may have been a little bitty girl on the receiving end of a temper tantrum.

6. I have wondered why, if the LE in PDL wanted to frame someone for this why they didn't just hang it on Robert Murat? If LE was being pressured by powerful people to allow the McCanns to skate that seems to me to be the most simple solution, right? Wrong, guess what would be a bit easier? Blame it on a dead man.... A dead man that had already kidnapped a small blond girl and who may have been in the area at the time and whose vehicle may have been spotted there and who buried his victim in a remote place and whose body would probably never had been discovered if not for wild animals digging up the grave and a wandering stranger....very convenient.

GREAT POST, Colomom, thank you for taking the time to post it.

I have to agree your stats are right in line, and can go along with NPD for Gerry; Kate and Battered Woman Syndrome, I'm not sure of.

I also agree with statement ascribed to Hitler about telling a big enough lie. I know several people who follow that advice with great success.

I also agree Von Aesch is a convenient scapegoat. What got my rat-sniffer moving was the "wild animals digging up the grave and a wandering stranger. . .". Yes, very convenient, too convenient.

On the other hand, I'm unable to get a handle on the logistics of the body's disappearance if, indeed, Maddie is dead. There doesn't *seem* to have been enough time and/or opportunity to commit the dead, and hide the body, let alone putting in a rental car (if they did) 25 days later which *supposedly* led to an evidence trail. This is the part that makes no sense to me.

WHERE was the body directly after Madeleine died?
HOW and when were the McCann's able to put the body or whatever in the trunk/boot of the rental car without being seen, IF, they did any of the above?

I can't say for sure the parents are innocent of Madeleine's death. I can't say for sure she was abducted, but I'm still leaning that way because it DOES happen and with more frequency now than ever before.

I do believe this case will not be solved because of the mistakes, omission and commission, made by Portueges LE early and perhaps still.

I like the way you put things together from known facts about statistics, mental illness, etc. I also like Sherlock Holmes and his *deductions* about things like certain mud only comes from certain places. I have seen real cases turned around by evidence such as that.

"There are stranger things in this world than in all your philosophies, Horatio"

 

[mjak]

Is it less reprehensible for parents to kill their own child, hide the body, move the body, then possibly scatter body parts all over Europe?

No, but I can see how a parent could accidently kill there child and get caught up in lie after lie covering it up. It is totally reprehensible but it is circumstance I can horrifcly see happening. I can not see any LE angency willfully endangering young children like that.

mjak

Edited: To add the fact I admittingly am nieve and too idealistic about the world so I accept I maybe unable to see your theroy due to that.

 

[philamena]

Additional information-----
Children who were not murdered by a parent or family member.
Jessica Lunsford 9 yrs old (raped murdered)
Dylan Groene age 9 yrs old (raped, tortured, murdered)
Beaner Warner 4 yrs old (Disappeared, never found, parents cleared.)
Kathleen Marie Flynn 11 yrs old (Disappeared, found raped and murdered, parents cleared.)
Amanda Dowler 13 (Abducted from a train station, found murdered.)
Anathony Martinez 10 yrs old (Kidnapped by knife point in his front yard. Found murdered.)
CoralRose Fullwood 6 yrs old (Found raped and murdered. Mother cleared in 2007.)
Christopher Barrios 6 yrs old (Brutally raped and murdered.)
Ylenia Lenhard 6 yrs old (Abducted, murdered.)

~~~to be continued.
Missing Children Statistics


“…A child goes missing every 40 seconds in the U.S, over 2,100 per day

In excess of 800,000 children are reported missing each year

Another 500,000 go missing without ever being reported…”

[SIZE=-4]Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention[/SIZE]

 

[IrishMist]

Additional information-----
Children who were not murdered by a parent or family member.
Jessica Lunsford 9 yrs old (raped murdered)
Dylan Groene age 9 yrs old (raped, tortured, murdered)
Beaner Warner 4 yrs old (Disappeared, never found, parents cleared.)
Kathleen Marie Flynn 11 yrs old (Disappeared, found raped and murdered, parents cleared.)
Amanda Dowler 13 (Abducted from a train station, found murdered.)
Anathony Martinez 10 yrs old (Kidnapped by knife point in his front yard. Found murdered.)
CoralRose Fullwood 6 yrs old (Found raped and murdered. Mother cleared in 2007.)
Christopher Barrios 6 yrs old (Brutally raped and murdered.)
Ylenia Lenhard 6 yrs old (Abducted, murdered.)

~~~to be continued.
Missing Children Statistics


“…A child goes missing every 40 seconds in the U.S, over 2,100 per day

In excess of 800,000 children are reported missing each year

Another 500,000 go missing without ever being reported…”

[SIZE=-4]Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention[/SIZE]

A grim but accurate reminder that it is not ALWAYS the parent(s). Thanks for finding and posting this, Philamena.

 

[philamena]

You're welcome IrishMist.
In order for Maddie's case to be discussed fairly, I personally think all points of view should be considered.
The most important fact we should keep in mind, imo, is the number of precious children who are murdered each year.

 

[AfterMidnight]

You're welcome IrishMist.
In order for Maddie's case to be discussed fairly, I personally think all points of view should be considered.
The most important fact we should keep in mind, imo, is the number of precious children who are murdered each year.

I agree with that! I also think people of good heart, who really want the truth, are trying to see each other's point of view a bit more - at least I hope so.

 

[colomom]

Additional information-----
Children who were not murdered by a parent or family member.
Jessica Lunsford 9 yrs old (raped murdered)
Dylan Groene age 9 yrs old (raped, tortured, murdered)
Beaner Warner 4 yrs old (Disappeared, never found, parents cleared.)
Kathleen Marie Flynn 11 yrs old (Disappeared, found raped and murdered, parents cleared.)
Amanda Dowler 13 (Abducted from a train station, found murdered.)
Anathony Martinez 10 yrs old (Kidnapped by knife point in his front yard. Found murdered.)
CoralRose Fullwood 6 yrs old (Found raped and murdered. Mother cleared in 2007.)
Christopher Barrios 6 yrs old (Brutally raped and murdered.)
Ylenia Lenhard 6 yrs old (Abducted, murdered.)

~~~to be continued.
Missing Children Statistics


“…A child goes missing every 40 seconds in the U.S, over 2,100 per day

In excess of 800,000 children are reported missing each year

Another 500,000 go missing without ever being reported…”

[SIZE=-4]Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention[/SIZE]

From that same site (http://ojjdp.ncjrs.gov/ojstatbb/victims/qa02111.asp?qaDate=2003):

Child Maltreatment

Q: Who are the perpetrators of child maltreatment?

A: The vast majority of perpetrators were parents (80%), including birth parents, adoptive parents, and stepparents.

Percent of perpetrators by relationship to victim, 2003

Perpetrator-victim relationship-Percent
Parents 79.7%
Other relative 6.4%
Other caregivers 4.2%
Unmarried partner of parent 4.0%
Child daycare provider 0.8%
Foster parent 0.5%
Friends/neighbor 0.2%
Residential facility staff 0.2%
Legal guardian 0.2%
Other professionals 0.1%
Unknown/missing 3.8%

Notes: This table is based on sample data reported by a varying number of states.

From: http://www.klaaskids.org/pg-mc-mcstatistics.htm

According the FBI’s National Crime Information Center (NCIC)

85% to 90% of the 876,213 persons reported missing to America’s law enforcement agencies in 2000 were juveniles (persons under 18 years of age). That means that 2,100 times per day parents or primary care givers felt the disappearance was serious enough to call law enforcement.
152,265 of the persons reported missing in 2000 were categorized as either endangered or involuntary.

17%

 

[philamena]

That number differs with the one you posted this morning does it not?
It's plain to see that the majority of child murders are committed by family members..... BUT NOT ALL OF THEM. :banghead:

You don't like anyone that doesn't agree with you replying to your post do you? I'm not going to argue with you about this case. So go ahead and alert the mods. But as long as I'm allowed to post on this forum, I WILL post opinion and the opposing facts!