What was John wearing the morning of Dec. 26?

[rashomon]

And let's remember, the evidence shows that the killer DID inflict that wound, either before the murder, or during it (i.e., after the head blow, perhaps, but before death by strangulation had occurred).

That's why I think the molester HAS to be the killer. If someone else was molesting JBR, why would the killer want to hide evidence of that fact? Even if the killer KNEW FOR A FACT that JBR was being abused, it makes no sense that he/she would inflict that wound--it's his/her best 'reasonable doubt' playing card!

I could make sense if the killer was covering up for the abuser (in case they were not the same person).

 

[BlueCrab]

A second source for the fingerprints is JonBenet The Police Files (exact transcripts of John & Patsy Ramsey's police investigations) edited by Don Gentile & David Wright.

It is also stated that the pineapple had to have been consumed at least 1-2 hours before death (could have been earlier - maybe before trip to Whites??).

Alexi

Alexi,

Pineapple, consumed on an empty stomach (the pineapple was the only food in JonBenet's digestive system except for the cracked crab meal eaten at the Whites which had progressed all the way to the large intestine), does not take long to leave the stomach and enter the small intestine (where it was found during JonBenet's autopsy). In my research I found that, on an empty stomach, it could have taken as little as 30 minutes, or as long as two hours. Only if mixed with other food would the pineapple likely have taken longer to reach the small intestine.

Therefore, I think it's safe to estimate that the pineapple was eaten by JonBenet one to two hours before she died. We know Jonbenet was alive at 9:30 PM when, according to Fleet White, the Ramseys left the Whites' dinner party. And, if the Ramseys are to be believed, she was likely put to bed around 10:00 PM. So it appears JonBenet must have gotten up in the middle of the night, after the parents were asleep, and snacked on the pineapple. My guess is she snacked on the pineapple sometime around 11:00 PM to 12 midnight and died about 1:00 AM.

BlueCrab

 

[Solace]

Alexi,

Pineapple, consumed on an empty stomach (the pineapple was the only food in JonBenet's digestive system except for the cracked crab meal eaten at the Whites which had progressed all the way to the large intestine), does not take long to leave the stomach and enter the small intestine (where it was found during JonBenet's autopsy). In my research I found that, on an empty stomach, it could have taken as little as 30 minutes, or as long as two hours. Only if mixed with other food would the pineapple likely have taken longer to reach the small intestine.

Therefore, I think it's safe to estimate that the pineapple was eaten by JonBenet one to two hours before she died. We know Jonbenet was alive at 9:30 PM when, according to Fleet White, the Ramseys left the Whites' dinner party. And, if the Ramseys are to be believed, she was likely put to bed around 10:00 PM. So it appears JonBenet must have gotten up in the middle of the night, after the parents were asleep, and snacked on the pineapple. My guess is she snacked on the pineapple sometime around 11:00 PM to 12 midnight and died about 1:00 AM.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab: Hi, but how can you believe the Ramseys. They lied about her walking into the house, which is how they said she came in and then changed it, along with Berke. John lied about reading to them and said that was a misunderstanding. So I do not see how we can believe their initial story nor the later one.

 

[Alexi]

Alexi,

Pineapple, consumed on an empty stomach (the pineapple was the only food in JonBenet's digestive system except for the cracked crab meal eaten at the Whites which had progressed all the way to the large intestine), does not take long to leave the stomach and enter the small intestine (where it was found during JonBenet's autopsy). In my research I found that, on an empty stomach, it could have taken as little as 30 minutes, or as long as two hours. Only if mixed with other food would the pineapple likely have taken longer to reach the small intestine.

Therefore, I think it's safe to estimate that the pineapple was eaten by JonBenet one to two hours before she died. We know Jonbenet was alive at 9:30 PM when, according to Fleet White, the Ramseys left the Whites' dinner party. And, if the Ramseys are to be believed, she was likely put to bed around 10:00 PM. So it appears JonBenet must have gotten up in the middle of the night, after the parents were asleep, and snacked on the pineapple. My guess is she snacked on the pineapple sometime around 11:00 PM to 12 midnight and died about 1:00 AM.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,

Thanks for the info - had not researched it myself. Thought food could stay in the stomach for as long as 4 hours. The pancakes she had for Christmas brunch must have been long gone.

So, you figure she got up around 11:00 and had pineapple that Burke got for her (since only Patsy's and Burke's prints were on the bowl). From the picture, it doesn't look like a set-up I or any other mother would do (give a small child a huge bowl of pineapple with a serving spoon for a utensil).

I think I've pieced together the sequence of events for that night, but that darn pineapple in her stomach just doesn't figure in for either the parents or an intruder theory.

 

[Solace]

Dru,

In response to your reason #1: Burke has never been cleared by Boulder authorities. You will not find anything in writing from the BPD, or the DA, or the courts, nor any other place that states Burke was CLEARED. They will mealymouth the issue and use trick wording, but they will not say he is cleared, as they did with Melinda and John Andrew.

In response to your reason #2: There is no evidence that JonBenet was molested with the stick in an attempt to hide previous molestation. That's only a theory.

The autopsy evidence shows acute and chronic injuries to the vagina. The acute and chronic injuries were both at the same 7 o'clock position in the vagina. This strongly suggests that the same person inflicted the acute and the chronic injuries; IOW, someone she knew well inflicted both injuries.

BlueCrab

Probably Patsy when she was "douching" her in a circular motion. I believe this was done on a daily basis and kept the infections going and also did physical harm to JonBenet, ergo the screaming and crying going on in the bathroom that was heard by Linda Paugh almost daily. It is very very possible to cause these types of injuries to a little girl while douching.

 

[Solace]

Alexi,

Pineapple, consumed on an empty stomach (the pineapple was the only food in JonBenet's digestive system except for the cracked crab meal eaten at the Whites which had progressed all the way to the large intestine), does not take long to leave the stomach and enter the small intestine (where it was found during JonBenet's autopsy). In my research I found that, on an empty stomach, it could have taken as little as 30 minutes, or as long as two hours. Only if mixed with other food would the pineapple likely have taken longer to reach the small intestine.

Therefore, I think it's safe to estimate that the pineapple was eaten by JonBenet one to two hours before she died. We know Jonbenet was alive at 9:30 PM when, according to Fleet White, the Ramseys left the Whites' dinner party. And, if the Ramseys are to be believed, she was likely put to bed around 10:00 PM. So it appears JonBenet must have gotten up in the middle of the night, after the parents were asleep, and snacked on the pineapple. My guess is she snacked on the pineapple sometime around 11:00 PM to 12 midnight and died about 1:00 AM.

BlueCrab

She may have gotten up OR she at it when first arrived home; Patsy's fingerprints are on the bowl. We know that they all say she was awake when she arrived home and then they all change their stories. She probably ate it when she got home.

 

[BlueCrab]

BlueCrab,

Thanks for the info - had not researched it myself. Thought food could stay in the stomach for as long as 4 hours. The pancakes she had for Christmas brunch must have been long gone.

So, you figure she got up around 11:00 and had pineapple that Burke got for her (since only Patsy's and Burke's prints were on the bowl). From the picture, it doesn't look like a set-up I or any other mother would do (give a small child a huge bowl of pineapple with a serving spoon for a utensil).

I think I've pieced together the sequence of events for that night, but that darn pineapple in her stomach just doesn't figure in for either the parents or an intruder theory.

Alexi,

Correct. IMO neither the parents nor an imaginary intruder had anything to do with the death of JonBenet. Yet the parents and others have been engaged in a coverup of the truth since day one.

The rate of digestion of the pineapple in JonBenet's digestive tract establishes a good estimate of the timeline in this crime. Pineapple, eaten on an empty stomach, as was the case here, normally passes quickly from the stomach to the small intestine.

Based on the location of the barely digested pineapple in the small intestine, JonBenet likely died about one hour after eating it -- and certainly not more than two hours after eating it. The pineapple was the only food in the digestive tract except for the green fecal matter in the large intestine that represented food eaten at the White's dinner party some seven or eight hours earlier. Therefore, the pineapple had to have been consumed at the Ramsey's house about one hour before she died which, IMO, would put the time of death around 1 or 2 AM.

BlueCrab

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Don't forget John Ramsey originally told police that he read the kids a book that night (meaning both kids, as in JonBenet was awake to hear it) then went to bed, only to change his story later and say that he had been misunderstood and had meant that he had read a book and went to bed.

If JonBenet was awake, and JR originally said she was and then Burke, in a videotaped police interview, also said she was awake when they got home, then I think JonBenet was awake, and hungry enough to gulp pineapple down. The pineapple in her system had been poorly chewed, and they didn't find her prints on the bowl (what about the spoon, BC, you'd know), both of which indicate to me she was really hungry from playing at the party and needed a snack before bed.

What happened between JonBenet eating the pineapple and taking her last breath is anyone's guess, but the fact is she was awake at some point after the family returned home and ate a snack, and we know the pineapple in her intestine was consistent down to the rind with what was in the bowl, so that's where she got it. Why are the Rs denying any knowledge of anything to do with the pineapple? Obviously they forgot it would turn up in an autopsy and didn't have that worked into the story they decided to tell police - "she was asleep when we got home."

 

[Solace]

Don't forget John Ramsey originally told police that he read the kids a book that night (meaning both kids, as in JonBenet was awake to hear it) then went to bed, only to change his story later and say that he had been misunderstood and had meant that he had read a book and went to bed.

If JonBenet was awake, and JR originally said she was and then Burke, in a videotaped police interview, also said she was awake when they got home, then I think JonBenet was awake, and hungry enough to gulp pineapple down. The pineapple in her system had been poorly chewed, and they didn't find her prints on the bowl (what about the spoon, BC, you'd know), both of which indicate to me she was really hungry from playing at the party and needed a snack before bed.

What happened between JonBenet eating the pineapple and taking her last breath is anyone's guess, but the fact is she was awake at some point after the family returned home and ate a snack, and we know the pineapple in her intestine was consistent down to the rind with what was in the bowl, so that's where she got it. Why are the Rs denying any knowledge of anything to do with the pineapple? Obviously they forgot it would turn up in an autopsy and didn't have that worked into the story they decided to tell police - "she was asleep when we got home."

HI NP: She has to be asleep because then we did not hurt her, someone else did and also if we keep her asleep, it eliminates hours upon hours of questions and any chance of our making a mistake and Berke surely would make a mistake.

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,
...
Dr. Cyril Wecht was far from being the only person who originally believed this. In an interview with Lisa Levitt Ryckman of the Denver Rocky Mountain News in March of 2000 John Ramsey himself also believes it, "He is a pedophile with a preference for little girls. He is a sociopath experienced with autoeratic asphyxiation, the use of garrotes to enhance sex".

IOW, the garrote was probably the "murder" weapon and, like hundreds of similar deaths each year in the U.S., JonBenet accidentally died as another victim of breath contol sex games played by young people. All other injuries on JonBenet's body would then be staging to cover up the sexual aspects of the crime and make it appear to be the diabolical work of terrorists.

BlueCrab

If the stager of the scene had wanted to cover up the sexual aspect of the crime, he would have removed the 'garrote' from JB's neck.
I think it was exactly the other way round: a bizarre sexual predator scene was staged to direct the attention away from the head bash as the original wound inflicted on JB.

It has been argued why then had JB been wiped down? But we don't know if it was blood which was wiped from her genital area. It could as well have been urine or feces.
"But no corresponding blood in her underwear could be matched to the genital wound, therefore it must be concluded that blood was wiped off" - another argument brought up to support the theory that the intention was to conceal a sexual assault on JB.
But the wound was inside JB's genitals, in the vestibule area, and some drops of blood could have seeped into her undewear without leaving direct corresponding stains.
The wound was small, and may not have bled much at all, since JB was probably already nearing death.

In addtion, sexual assault does not mesh with an EA scenario. What also does not mesh with an EA scenario: surely JB would have clawed at the cord with her fingers and tried to pull it off when not being able to breathe anymore. But none of her skin was found under her fingernails, nor were there any scratch marks.
No damage to her hyoid bone was done, nor was her larynx injured.
All this imo supports a scenario where a piece of cord was put around the unconscious child's neck and simply tied with a knot.
It all screams staging.

 

[BlueCrab]

If the stager of the scene had wanted to cover up the sexual aspect of the crime, he would have removed the 'garrote' from JB's neck.
I think it was exactly the other way round: a bizarre sexual predator scene was staged to direct the attention away from the head bash as the original wound inflicted on JB.

It has been argued why then had JB been wiped down? But we don't know if it was blood which was wiped from her genital area. It could as well have been urine or feces.
"But no corresponding blood in her underwear could be matched to the genital wound, therefore it must be concluded that blood was wiped off" - another argument brought up to support the theory that the intention was to conceal a sexual assault on JB.
But the wound was inside JB's genitals, in the vestibule area, and some drops of blood could have seeped into her undewear without leaving direct corresponding stains.
The wound was small, and may not have bled much at all, since JB was probably already nearing death.

In addtion, sexual assault does not mesh with an EA scenario. What also does not mesh with an EA scenario: surely JB would have clawed at the cord with her fingers and tried to pull it off when not being able to breathe anymore. But none of her skin was found under her fingernails, nor were there any scratch marks.
No damage to her hyoid bone was done, nor was her larynx injured.
All this imo supports a scenario where a piece of cord was put around the unconscious child's neck and simply tied with a knot.
It all screams staging.

rashomon,

IMO JonBenet died accidentally from strangulation during an amateurish attempt to employ erotic asphyxiation on her. The circumferential rope abrasions on her neck, and the specially designed rope device wrapped around her neck, is evidence that autoerotic asphyxiation or erotic asphyxiation had likely been used on her.

The skin above and below the circumferential abrasion on her neck had substantial petechial hemorrhages, indicating her heart was still pumping when the rope ligature was being tightened. There were also petechial hemorrhages on her eyelids.

The lack of of blood after the smash to the head is strong evidence that JonBenet's heart had stopped pumping blood prior to the hit. Therefore, the asphyxiation had to have been the cause of death, and the grisly head bash that followed was staging to make the death look like the work of a terrorist.

The injuries to the vagina were not staging. The acute injuries inflicted on the night of the murder were at the same 7 o'clock position in the vagina as the chronic injuries inflicted 2 or 3 days prior to the murder. It suggests that the same person had inflicted both the acute and the chronic injuries to the vagina, which points to a family member or a close friend of the family.

BlueCrab

 

[Ames]

Bluecrab: As far as prints go, I have heard only that Berke's prints were on the glass of tea found next to the bowl of pineapple. As far as this goes, I am suspect of its validity also since I believe it was documented on "48 Hours", but I could be wrong and if I am, my apologies. But I do believe the prints on the bowl belong only to Patsy. The prints on the glass belong to Berke.

I have never heard it proven that they came down together late at night.

Me either.

 

[Alexi]

BlueCrab

Sounds like you've narrowed it down. I still wonder about an intruder, though. We do have police records that indicate the Ramseys reported someone sleeping in JB's bed when they were not home up in Michigan. I sorta lean toward the stalker/intruder theory because of this and other strange things that seemed to happen in the months before the murder.

I honestly believe someone came in through the basement window (previously broken or not - there aren't a lot of windows in that basement and as far as the intruder knew the other doors were on an alarm system.) I think the rest was part of some fantasy he was living out. The note (which I think he rewrote in order to leave a "better" note) was some sick need he had to contact the parents - much like John Mark Karr wanted to meet Patsy.

Now, you could be right in that it's a close relative or friend (imagine having friends like that - ugh!) The only person I believe the parents might cover for is Burke - and I can't imagine him doing it.

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,

IMO JonBenet died accidentally from strangulation during an amateurish attempt to employ erotic asphyxiation on her. The circumferential rope abrasions on her neck, and the specially designed rope device wrapped around her neck, is evidence that autoerotic asphyxiation or erotic asphyxiation had likely been used on her.

The skin above and below the circumferential abrasion on her neck had substantial petechial hemorrhages, indicating her heart was still pumping when the rope ligature was being tightened. There were also petechial hemorrhages on her eyelids.

The lack of of blood after the smash to the head is strong evidence that JonBenet's heart had stopped pumping blood prior to the hit. Therefore, the asphyxiation had to have been the cause of death, and the grisly head bash that followed was staging to make the death look like the work of a terrorist.

The injuries to the vagina were not staging. The acute injuries inflicted on the night of the murder were at the same 7 o'clock position in the vagina as the chronic injuries inflicted 2 or 3 days prior to the murder. It suggests that the same person had inflicted both the acute and the chronic injuries to the vagina, which points to a family member or a close friend of the family.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,

in addition to the 7-8 cc of subdural hemorrhage, there was also a film of subarachnoid hemorrhage overlying the entire right cerebral hemisphere. That's what Cyril Wecht obviously left out when claiming there was so little blood in JB's brain. And that's what Steve Thomas meant when he wrote that JB's brain had 'extensively hemorrhaged', the blood having spread over the whole right half of her brain.
There also was an extensive linear area of purple contusion underlying the linear skull fracture from the front to the back of the head.

So there was bleeding, swelling and contusion of the brain, and forensic pathologist Dr. Spitz (among several others) stating there is no question that the head blow came first.

 

[BlueCrab]

BlueCrab,

in addition to the 7-8 cc of subdural hemorrhage, there was also a film of subarachnoid hemorrhage overlying the entire right cerebral hemisphere. That's what Cyril Wecht obviously left out when claiming there was so little blood in JB's brain. And that's what Steve Thomas meant when he wrote that JB's brain had 'extensively hemorrhaged', the blood having spread over the whole right half of her brain.
There also was an extensive linear area of purple contusion underlying the linear skull fracture from the front to the back of the head.

So there was bleeding, swelling and contusion of the brain, and forensic pathologist Dr. Spitz (among several others) stating there is no question that the head blow came first.

rashomon,

The 7 or 8 cc of blood (about 1 1/2 teaspoons) on the brain was residual blood. Residual blood is everywhere in the body.

But probably the most revealing factor in determining what killed JonBenet -- the smash on the head or the ligature strangulation -- were the petechial hemorrhages above and below the circumferential furrow around JonBenet's neck and on her eyelids. These multiple tiny hemorrhages on the skin could not form if the heart wasn't pumping during the strangulation.

Therefore, it appears the erotic strangulation came first, and it accidentally killed her by asphyxiation. The hit on the head came second as part of the staging, followed by the extremely vicious yank on the ligature that imbedded the cord deeply into the neck.

BlueCrab

 

[icedtea4me]

But probably the most revealing factor in determining what killed JonBenet -- the smash on the head or the ligature strangulation -- were the petechial hemorrhages above and below the circumferential furrow around JonBenet's neck and on her eyelids. These multiple tiny hemorrhages on the skin could not form if the heart wasn't pumping during the strangulation.

Just because one has been rendered unconscious from a blow to the head does not mean that their heart has stopped beating.


-Tea

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,

The 7 or 8 cc of blood (about 1 1/2 teaspoons) on the brain was residual blood. Residual blood is everywhere in the body.

But probably the most revealing factor in determining what killed JonBenet -- the smash on the head or the ligature strangulation -- were the petechial hemorrhages above and below the circumferential furrow around JonBenet's neck and on her eyelids. These multiple tiny hemorrhages on the skin could not form if the heart wasn't pumping during the strangulation.

Therefore, it appears the erotic strangulation came first, and it accidentally killed her by asphyxiation. The hit on the head came second as part of the staging, followed by the extremely vicious yank on the ligature that imbedded the cord deeply into the neck.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,

But if 'residual blood' is everywhere in the body, then why did the autopsy report specifically mention it? The autopsy report btw calls it "hemorrhage" which means 'bleeding'.
Question to people with medical knowledge: what is exactly is subdural hemorrhage?

And if JB died from strangulation first, the (later inflicted, per your theory) head wound would not have bled at all. But there was bleeding inside JB's skull which had spread over the entire right half of her brain.

 

[rashomon]

Just because one has been rendered unconscious from a blow to the head does not mean that their heart has stopped beating.
-Tea

Exactly. Very important point.
For JB could have been in a deep coma from the head blow, and still her heart would have been beating.

And the fact that there was bleeding in her brain points to her being alive when the head blow was delivered.
For if she had died from strangulation first, no bleeding would have occurred in her brain.

 

[BBB167893]

There is something else here: their home was broken into in mid-2000. John claimed the man got in because he left the door unlocked.

WHAT?!

His daughter's been murdered under his nose. No WAY he'd leave anything unlocked again!

England says the "garrote" was staging and the blow on the head killed JonBenet. But why design such an elaborate garrote just for the sake of staging?

Every time I answer that one, I get bit!

 

[UKGuy]

There is something else here: their home was broken into in mid-2000. John claimed the man got in because he left the door unlocked.

WHAT?!

His daughter's been murdered under his nose. No WAY he'd leave anything unlocked again!



Every time I answer that one, I get bit!

SuperDave,

Sounds like security was at the top of his priority list.

England says the "garrote" was staging and the blow on the head killed JonBenet. But why design such an elaborate garrote just for the sake of staging?

Who suggested that the garrote was a design or elaborate , it was actually crude and unsophisticated.

Lou Smit did a good PR job on the pedophile intruder who constructed a garrote in a professional manner!

This rhetoric reminds me of argument from intelligent design and emergence.

A quick look at the autopsy photograph http://www.acandyrose.com/garrote3.jpg complete with JonBenet's hair still embedded into it will tell you how professional that is, also like her underwear there is still a piece of the paintbrush missing, why remove this and leave the other piece? I have speculated it was inserted inside JonBenet and that this has been redacted from the autopsy report. The staging is so visibly amateur that this adjective applies to the garrote in particular.

But why design such an elaborate garrote just for the sake of staging?

A more relevant question may be why construct a garrote at all? When the cord wrapped around JonBenet's neck may have been sufficient?

Also:

England says the "garrote" was staging and the blow on the head killed JonBenet.

If he is so certain why the internal cranial and vaginal bleeding?


.