Why Were There 17 Inches Of Cord Between The Wrist Ligatures?

[BBB167893]

Well, if he DOES read here, I've got PLENTY to tell him!

It's my understanding that the cord had been tied rather loosely to the wrists, and that there were no marks on them to indicate that she had fought them. That fits with your guess also. Thomas mentioned that they would hardly have restrained a living child.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[BlueCrab]

Please list your source...TIA.

Ames,

My source for the lengths of the various cords binding JonBenet is Dr. John Meyer's autopsy report.

Here's his wording in regard to the wrist cord:

"Tied loosely around the right wrist, overlying the sleeve of the shirt is a white cord. At the knot there is one tail end which measures 5.5 inches in length with a frayed end. The other tail of the knot measures 15.5 inches in length and ends in a double loop knot. The end of the cord is also frayed."

And here's Meyer's wording in regard to the neck ligature cord:

"Wrapped around the neck with a double knot in the midline of the posterior neck is a length of white cord similar to that described as being tied around the right wrist. ... Extending from the knot on the posterior of the neck are two tails of the knot, one measuring 4 inches in length and having a frayed end, and the other measuring 17 inches in length with the end tied in multiple loops around a length of a round tan-brown wooden stick which measures 4.5 inches in length."

BlueCrab

 

[UKGuy]

Ames,

My source for the lengths of the various cords binding JonBenet is Dr. John Meyer's autopsy report.

Here's his wording in regard to the wrist cord:

"Tied loosely around the right wrist, overlying the sleeve of the shirt is a white cord. At the knot there is one tail end which measures 5.5 inches in length with a frayed end. The other tail of the knot measures 15.5 inches in length and ends in a double loop knot. The end of the cord is also frayed."

And here's Meyer's wording in regard to the neck ligature cord:

"Wrapped around the neck with a double knot in the midline of the posterior neck is a length of white cord similar to that described as being tied around the right wrist. ... Extending from the knot on the posterior of the neck are two tails of the knot, one measuring 4 inches in length and having a frayed end, and the other measuring 17 inches in length with the end tied in multiple loops around a length of a round tan-brown wooden stick which measures 4.5 inches in length."

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,

Thanks for the correction.


.

 

[BBB167893]

An honest mistake.

 

[Ames]

Ames,

My source for the lengths of the various cords binding JonBenet is Dr. John Meyer's autopsy report.

Here's his wording in regard to the wrist cord:

"Tied loosely around the right wrist, overlying the sleeve of the shirt is a white cord. At the knot there is one tail end which measures 5.5 inches in length with a frayed end. The other tail of the knot measures 15.5 inches in length and ends in a double loop knot. The end of the cord is also frayed."

And here's Meyer's wording in regard to the neck ligature cord:

"Wrapped around the neck with a double knot in the midline of the posterior neck is a length of white cord similar to that described as being tied around the right wrist. ... Extending from the knot on the posterior of the neck are two tails of the knot, one measuring 4 inches in length and having a frayed end, and the other measuring 17 inches in length with the end tied in multiple loops around a length of a round tan-brown wooden stick which measures 4.5 inches in length."

BlueCrab

Thanks...sorry about that. So, the thread should have read...."Why Were There 15.5 Inches Of Cord Between The Wrist Ligatures?"

 

[rashomon]

Thanks...sorry about that. So, the thread should have read...."Why Were There 15.5 Inches Of Cord Between The Wrist Ligatures?"

15.5 inches of cord space would still give a child plenty of room to move her hands.
I don't think rigor mortis was the reason for the stager to leave the large space between the ligature, but her (I think it was Patsy) total lack of knowledge as to how effective ligatures look like. Just like she had no idea how a real ransom note looks like. The same goes for the multiple loops around the paintbrush stick, which are actually counter-productive for effective pulling.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

15.5 inches still isn't enough to restrain JonBenet, and if she had been conscious while being strangled, I guarantee you we'd see some bruising or abrasions on her wrists from trying to free herself so she could struggle with the killer strangling her. How is a cord tied over her shirt sleeve going to restrain her? All she has to do is slip her hand back in the sleeve and she's out. People who tie others up intentionally don't do it over their sleeves because it's easier for them to get loose.

I found an article once that said even suicide victims, who intentionally chose to hang themselves as their preferred method of death, sometimes have claw marks on their necks from struggling - so it has to be a subconscious response - to claw at the cord, rope, what have you, strangling a person, if even those who mean to die by strangulation end up trying to pull at the cord or rope.

It doesn't appear as though JonBenet offered any kind of struggle at all of any kind with the person who strangled her - the only way I can see that happening is if she was already unconscious when the cord was tied on her neck and tightened.

 

[Veronica10]

Veronica JonBenet was by all accounts delightful and yet ...could be demanding and difficult as well. Remember Patsy had cancer John was gone alot. So the kids well the kids ..hmmmm Burke was said to whittle at will around the house and they were quite mmmmmmm cute but pressing the boundaries. JonBenet was witnessed kicking Patsy at a one of the pagents. But you know the 5-6 year old child will test every boundary. Some parents roll with it and roll with it. Then pow.... Just as in expample the red shirt and the My Twin Doll. Perhaps John lost the ability to connect in the ongoing grief he was experiencing after the loss of Beth as well. And just wrapped everything into Access Graphics etc.......just a thought you know.

Yes, I agree Colorado. He definitely seemed much more connected to his first set of kids than to Burke or JonBenet. I've seen a lot of men do the second family thing and what you said seems to ring true in lots of cases...the men have been there done that and are not as into the parenting thing the second time around. JR was certainly not a young dad.
Oh, I think Jonbenet gave Patsy a run for her money, not like Burke the nintendo loving whittler.

Yes, I think JR's emotions were flattened by Beth's death. In some way he was deeply, deeply connected to her...and I don't think he was ever the same after she was gone.

Also, when he remarked about JB on LKL, I got the feeling he may resent her a bit. Maybe he thinks she caused Patsy to snap since she was such a handful. Maybe I'm reading too much into it but he certainly did not take the opportunity to relay any special connection he felt for JB.

 

[coloradokares]

Yes, I agree Colorado. He definitely seemed much more connected to his first set of kids than to Burke or JonBenet. I've seen a lot of men do the second family thing and what you said seems to ring true in lots of cases...the men have been there done that and are not as into the parenting thing the second time around. JR was certainly not a young dad.
Oh, I think Jonbenet gave Patsy a run for her money, not like Burke the nintendo loving whittler.

Yes, I think JR's emotions were flattened by Beth's death. In some way he was deeply, deeply connected to her...and I don't think he was ever the same after she was gone.

Also, when he remarked about JB on LKL, I got the feeling he may resent her a bit. Maybe he thinks she caused Patsy to snap since she was such a handful. Maybe I'm reading too much into it but he certainly did not take the opportunity to relay any special connection he felt for JB.

Nope she was just a sparkplug. Wasn't that his standard line. I do believe though from everything I have heard, he loved patsy. And as close as I came to hearing anything he ever said that conveyed emotion was he said She was just like Patsy.

 

[UKGuy]

15.5 inches still isn't enough to restrain JonBenet, and if she had been conscious while being strangled, I guarantee you we'd see some bruising or abrasions on her wrists from trying to free herself so she could struggle with the killer strangling her. How is a cord tied over her shirt sleeve going to restrain her? All she has to do is slip her hand back in the sleeve and she's out. People who tie others up intentionally don't do it over their sleeves because it's easier for them to get loose.

I found an article once that said even suicide victims, who intentionally chose to hang themselves as their preferred method of death, sometimes have claw marks on their necks from struggling - so it has to be a subconscious response - to claw at the cord, rope, what have you, strangling a person, if even those who mean to die by strangulation end up trying to pull at the cord or rope.

It doesn't appear as though JonBenet offered any kind of struggle at all of any kind with the person who strangled her - the only way I can see that happening is if she was already unconscious when the cord was tied on her neck and tightened.

Nuisanceposter,

I tend to agree with you, any person constrained by a constraint in the course of a crime tend to move around attempting to escape or avoid injury thereby abrading or contusing the underlying skin.

Restraints are normally applied to living victims to make them more compliant and to deceased victims to make them easier to transport.

When a garrote is placed around a victims neck in the course of a sexual assault this normally leaves an abraded and contused ligature furrow, this is missing from JonBenet's neck although there is a furrow, I believe it is not abraded?

Where these signs are evident though is on her neck where there is a compression abrasion, normally the result of a collar being pulled up around a victim's neck to control their movement.

So its possible to imagine JonBenet attempting to flee her assailant, but being restrained by her own collar, whilst her assailant whacks her on the head to make sure she is compliant.

This may have been the result of JonBenet attempting to evade a sexual assault which was particularly painful, and the 15.5 inches of restraint cord imo may have been intended to make the dumpng of her body outdoors more manageable.

Since there are no abrasions or contused patterns on JonBenet's wrists its safe to conclude neither the cord or handcuffs were employed prior to her death!

.

 

[Toltec]

Yesiree....JonBenet was unconcious and close to death when the cord was placed around her neck and wrists.

No broken hyoid, no skin under her nails, no contusions on her wrists.

Patsy went into a fit of rage so she picked up the closest thing...which I believe was the flashlight and hits JonBenet over the head.

I don't believe Patsy would, in her state of mind go looking for a cord to strangle JonBenet.

 

[UKGuy]

Yesiree....JonBenet was unconcious and close to death when the cord was placed around her neck and wrists.

No broken hyoid, no skin under her nails, no contusions on her wrists.

Patsy went into a fit of rage so she picked up the closest thing...which I believe was the flashlight and hits JonBenet over the head.

I don't believe Patsy would, in her state of mind go looking for a cord to strangle JonBenet.

Toltec,

Sure, imo cord = staging, it had been intended to secure the blankets JonBenet was wrapped in, to make her disposal outdoors easier, but this was vetoed and the garrote and wrist restraints were magicked up.


.

 

[Ames]

15.5 inches of cord space would still give a child plenty of room to move her hands.
I don't think rigor mortis was the reason for the stager to leave the large space between the ligature, but her (I think it was Patsy) total lack of knowledge as to how effective ligatures look like. Just like she had no idea how a real ransom note looks like. The same goes for the multiple loops around the paintbrush stick, which are actually counter-productive for effective pulling.

LOL...yeah, I know that 15.5 inches of cord space would still have given JB plenty of room to move her hands....I was only off...by what...an inch or so. Yeah, like THAT would have made a huge difference. I was mainly being a bit sarcastic. I really did appreciate the poster correcting me though, even though...it was give or take an inch.

 

[Ames]

15.5 inches still isn't enough to restrain JonBenet, and if she had been conscious while being strangled, I guarantee you we'd see some bruising or abrasions on her wrists from trying to free herself so she could struggle with the killer strangling her. How is a cord tied over her shirt sleeve going to restrain her? All she has to do is slip her hand back in the sleeve and she's out. People who tie others up intentionally don't do it over their sleeves because it's easier for them to get loose.

Yep, I totally agree. 17 inches...or 15.5 inches....whats the big deal? She still had a large amount of rope between her wrist restraints. I believe that a FOREIGN FACTION Kidnapper, would have bound her hands together...behind her back. Only a parent would have bound her hands in front with 15.5 inches of rope between the wrist restaints. IMO

I found an article once that said even suicide victims, who intentionally chose to hang themselves as their preferred method of death, sometimes have claw marks on their necks from struggling - so it has to be a subconscious response - to claw at the cord, rope, what have you, strangling a person, if even those who mean to die by strangulation end up trying to pull at the cord or rope.

I believe that its a subconscious reponse too. Its a fight for survival...by instinct.

It doesn't appear as though JonBenet offered any kind of struggle at all of any kind with the person who strangled her - the only way I can see that happening is if she was already unconscious when the cord was tied on her neck and tightened.

Exactly...thats the only way that it could have happened.

 

[Ames]

Nope she was just a sparkplug. Wasn't that his standard line. I do believe though from everything I have heard, he loved patsy. And as close as I came to hearing anything he ever said that conveyed emotion was he said She was just like Patsy.

Yeah...that "sparkplug" comment from JR...is really starting to get on my nerves. What the heck does he mean by THAT? That she was a handfull? That they couldn't do anything with her? That she was strongwilled? That she was lively and full of energy? What the heck does "she was just a sparkplug" mean?

 

[philamena]

IMO, the wrist ties were all part of the staging. They served no purpose since IMO JBR was either unconscious or dead when they were applied.

 

[Ames]

IMO, the wrist ties were all part of the staging. They served no purpose since IMO JBR was either unconscious or dead when they were applied.

Exactly...I agree with you 100 percent!!

 

[philamena]

Ames,
Thanks and by the way, I really enjoy reading your thoughts on this case.

 

[Ames]

Ames,
Thanks and by the way, I really enjoy reading your thoughts on this case.http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

Awwwww...shucks! :blushing: Thank you so much...it means alot.