ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #21

[Tr.]

But I have been under the impression that SB means the dogs could not get DeOrrs scent beyond the campsite. Is that yours? I took it to mean ...huh strange if he wandered off cuz the dogs don't agree. Jmo.

With cadaver dogs, is it accurate that a body has to be dead and present in a location at least 90 minutes before the dogs can detect the scent?

I think SB has confidence in his dogs ability to track and they did track to the reservoir and back.
I wish that they would have double checked the track by using mom and/or dads scent to see if the dogs followed the same path.
If SB's dogs are reliable then the baby did not wander away.

Cadaver scent of course depends on what condition the remains are in and whether they've been exposed to foreign substance but I've read that cellular breakdown begins immediately upon death and in experiments dogs have marked on scent after as little as two minutes after death.
This is not to say that any cadaver dog can perform that well.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Ditto. I'll go one further and say I think LE has some very good ideas about where to search for the remains but are just waiting for the spring thaw. I believe LE has a viable case already but as many have discussed having remains will make court much easier. Klein's information seems legitimate I can't imagine he is just shooting off his mouth without there being some kind of proof in the bank that he and LE both know about.

I know innocent people getting lawyers isn't unheard of, but VDK getting a lawyer makes me think he knows charges are coming. If his son really was missing you'd think he might come out and say this is crazy I did nothing lets find my son. Instead he has hidden behind his lawyer who seems like he is already starting his defense through the media. I feel JM will need a lawyer soon as at a bare minimum she is involved with the cover-up and perhaps lots more.

bbm

Maybe he arms himself against accusations by JM and GGP, on advice of his father??

 

[persimmon]

I think SB has confidence in his dogs ability to track and they did track to the reservoir and back.
I wish that they would have double checked the track by using mom and/or dads scent to see if the dogs followed the same path.
If SB's dogs are reliable then the baby did not wander away.

Cadaver scent of course depends on what condition the remains are in and whether they've been exposed to foreign substance but I've read that cellular breakdown begins immediately upon death and in experiments dogs have marked on scent after as little as two minutes after death.
This is not to say that any cadaver dog can perform that well.

Giving SB the benefit of doubt on his dogs coupled with the fact that Idaho has one the best mountain search and rescue teams in the country and nothing turned up, I feel confident that DeOrr did not wander off. They used very sophisticated methods and technology to search the mountain well beyond just people on foot etc. It defies logic that he wandered with large boots on and left no type of trail or indication he had been anywhere within a three mile radius of the campsite. Very sad but I think there's a reason the investigation shifted.

OT...but that's awesome you're training a dog. I've always wanted to get involved with training service dogs. Seems like a rewarding experience and something that would teach me as much as the animal.

 

[TxJan1971]

I found it interesting that the initial dogs were said to have gone from the campsite to the reservoir and back to the campsite, and this occurred "before" the cremains were dumped on Sunday mid afternoon.

Also, FWIW, there were 18 dogs that apparently didn't alert:

SB: Exactly! We had…we’ve had a total of uh I believe 18 dogs in there and those dogs should have alerted, you know even after the fact, after the length of time that we’d been looking should alert should that child be in there, but my two scent dogs that were in there initially, they should have found that child. They really should have.

18 dogs

 

[Little Ol Me]

I found it interesting that the initial dogs were said to have gone from the campsite to the reservoir and back to the campsite, and this occurred "before" the cremains were dumped on Sunday mid afternoon.
Also, FWIW, there were 18 dogs that apparently didn't alert:

SB: Exactly! We had…we’ve had a total of uh I believe 18 dogs in there and those dogs should have alerted, you know even after the fact, after the length of time that we’d been looking should alert should that child be in there, but my two scent dogs that were in there initially, they should have found that child. They really should have.

18 dogs

Yes, I found that interesting as well.

 

[Tr.]

Giving SB the benefit of doubt on his dogs coupled with the fact that Idaho has one the best mountain search and rescue teams in the country and nothing turned up, I feel confident that DeOrr did not wander off. They used very sophisticated methods and technology to search the mountain well beyond just people on foot etc. It defies logic that he wandered with large boots on and left no type of trail or indication he had been anywhere within a three mile radius of the campsite. Very sad but I think there's a reason the investigation shifted.

OT...but that's awesome you're training a dog. I've always wanted to get involved with training service dogs. Seems like a rewarding experience and something that would teach me as much as the animal.

Thank you.
I too have confidence in the ability of the search teams.
At the same time I've learned not to underestimate the ability's of a determined toddler.
But ur right.. if I had to choose a search tactic in this case it would be strictly cadaver dogs and on foot in areas away from the camp.

I do a lot of volunteer searching for the missing so I'm hoping that a well trained dog will help bring some results.

 

[TxJan1971]

Excellent Q & A thread linked below on Cadaver Dogs, etc.

Re: how soon after death can dogs detect ?

Post #38
10-21-2011, 07:25 PM
Question: How long does a body need to be dead before the dogs would pick up on the scent? <snipped>

Sarx:
The dogs have the ability to smell it at the moment of death, I've watched house pets be able to tell as someone passed.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...questions-and-answers-**NO-DISCUSSION**/page3

Post #46 (Page 4) is also informative re: "Transfer" scent and buried scent (See link for specifics)

and

Post #52 (Page 4) - re: hits on any person(s) who may have handled the deceased
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...questions-and-answers-**NO-DISCUSSION**/page4

~~~
Main Thread - Human Remains (Cadaver) Detection (HRD) Q & A's
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...)-dog-questions-and-answers-**NO-DISCUSSION**

 

[Tr.]

Excellent Q & A thread linked below on Cadaver Dogs, etc.

Re: how soon after death can dogs detect ?

Post #38
10-21-2011, 07:25 PM
Question: How long does a body need to be dead before the dogs would pick up on the scent? <snipped>

Sarx:
The dogs have the ability to smell it at the moment of death, I've watched house pets be able to tell as someone passed.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...questions-and-answers-**NO-DISCUSSION**/page3

Post #46 (Page 4) is also informative re: "Transfer" scent and buried scent (See link for specifics)

and

Post #52 (Page 4) - re: hits on any person(s) who may have handled the deceased
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...questions-and-answers-**NO-DISCUSSION**/page4

~~~
Main Thread - Human Remains (Cadaver) Detection (HRD) Q & A's
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...)-dog-questions-and-answers-**NO-DISCUSSION**

I believe it and dogs are hitting on the scent of people with cancer ie: decaying tissue

 

[Rayemonde]

Wow! But Bowerman even answered that two times in succession, and the second time he even added emphasis . . . . "I ABSOLUTELY have no clue!"

I appreciate your insight!

Wow! And he also said the parents "absolutely" know where DeOrr is!

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Like you said, he's on the decline and was even prior to this situation. I'm just suspicious about the amount of emphasis that has been put on his health and general condition. It's as though somebody has an angenda...but who and what I don't know.

From the beginning, the fuss around the GGP seems verrrry mysterious (at least for me). I'm not able to decide whom of the adults I suspect more of having done something to little Deorr. :banghead:

 

[Rayemonde]

OT but the police said things indicating that they thought that the child in Lorain may have been abducted by someone and released there shortly before being found. So she could have been hidden in a house or vehicle, outside of the immediate search area and not accessible to tracking dogs.

They think the same thing about baby Rainn.

 

[Rayemonde]

I was recently reading up on Bianca Jones' case. Her father still insists she was abducted but he was convicted of her murder despite no body ever being found. In his appeal he argued that the fact cadaver dogs alerted to his car shouldn't have been admissible as evidence. The judges disagreed.

BBM:

At trial, FBI Canine Program Manager Rex Stockham testified as an expert in forensic canine operation. Stockham testified about the process of training and testing victim recovery dogs. Stockham&#8217;s protocol called for regular single- and double-blind testing of dogs throughout their working lives.

Stockham&#8217;s program had three full-time handlers in its program, including Martin Grime. Stockham testified that he had tested Morse and Keela, Grime&#8217;s dogs, and that both dogs had accuracy ratings in the high 90 percent range.

Stockham testified that dogs have been able to smell the odor of decomposition as soon as 2 hours after a victim&#8217;s death, or years after a victim&#8217;s burial.

Link to court opinion (pdf file) can be found here:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...2-Detroit-2-Dec-2011-4-*D-Lane-guilty*/page81

 

[TxJan1971]

Hopefully, as soon as the weather permits, perhaps SB will work with NCMEC to see if some of their dogs can be of some new help.

January 28,2016
Bessie: Well, Sheriff, we’d just like to know, are there plans for any further searches?

31:03
SB: You know absolutely. Right now the National Association for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC) have expressed an interest in coming back up with dogs so we’re entertaining that. Recently we were in on snowmobiles. There’s 4-6 feet of snow in there so right now, of course, that’s not possible. <snipped>
http://www.truecrimeradio.com/radio-...hive-jan-2016/

 

[TxJan1971]

Perhaps Klein can call upon his cadaver dog resources recently used in the Molly Miller case. The dog(s) hit on 12 sites around the area the evidence was obtained. They believe they found the crime scene/event area. Evidence obtained sent off to OSBI.

See post of 2-14-16 - Klein announcement re Molly Miller case

https://www.facebook.com/KleinInvestigations/

Also, see post on 2-15-16 post re: these cadaver dogs/handlers, e

***
Note: new post there today by JM's mom (TBC) above link

 

[TxJan1971]

Where is the new post? I've tried searching but I must be missing it.

Left side of page, 1st visitor post.

 

[persimmon]

Klein is so tight lipped on the case which is so opposite of his earlier behavior. That says a great deal to me. He's definitely working more closely with LE or at the least he's communicating more with them. It seems they have requested that he not share information. Jmo but the change is drastic.

 

[TxJan1971]

jmoo
In addition to possibly utilizing Klein's cadaver dog resources in the Molly Miller case to search for baby Deorr, perhaps SB or Klein et al or someone can check w/ FBI to see whether Dr Arpad Vass/team from the Oak Ridge Nat'l Lab can possibly utilize their sniffer device (Labrador) for locating clandestine graves (Dr. Vass testified during Caylee Anthony case). Unsure if it's feasible or not, but can't hurt inquiring.

(It looks to me like patent was issued 5-20-14 if I'm interpreting correctly. Unsure if device is manufactured and available or if they could use a protocol type model if not) Just a thought. JMOO


http://techportal.eere.energy.gov/technology.do/techID=946

http://www.forensicmag.com/articles/2010/06/labrador-new-alpha-dog-human-remains-detection

 

[persimmon]

jmoo
In addition to possibly utilizing Klein's cadaver dog resources in the Molly Miller case to search for baby Deorr, perhaps SB or Klein et al or someone can check w/ FBI to see whether Dr Arpad Vass/team from the Oak Ridge Nat'l Lab can possibly utilize their sniffer device (Labrador) for locating clandestine graves (Dr. Vass testified during Caylee Anthony case). Unsure if it's feasible or not, but can't hurt inquiring.

(It looks to me like patent was issued 5-20-14 if I'm interpreting correctly. Unsure if device is manufactured and available or if they could use a protocol type model if not) Just a thought. JMOO


http://techportal.eere.energy.gov/technology.do/techID=946

http://www.forensicmag.com/articles/2010/06/labrador-new-alpha-dog-human-remains-detection

I wonder if these organizations have less willingness to get involved when the family is suspected of the crime? Certainly, they all supprt victims but it must be very frustrating to search for the needle when you are almost positive there are people who know exactly where to find it. Even more difficult knowing they presumed LE was stupid and they continue to play a game at such a high cost to so many people. Just thinking out loud about some of the issues involved in this search. I recall Equisearch had little patience for Casey Anthony.

 

[TxJan1971]

I wonder if these organizations have less willingness to get involved when the family is suspected of the crime? Certainly, they all supprt victims but it must be very frustrating to search for the needle when you are almost positive there are people who know exactly where to find it. Even more difficult knowing they presumed LE was stupid and they continue to play a game at such a high cost to so many people. Just thinking out loud about some of the issues involved in this search. I recall Equisearch had little patience for Casey Anthony.

Agree. I think it would all depend on each individual/organization and their financial needs and/or other waiting commitments. TES (I would think) probably has lots waiting for his help.

I just think that if KIC just recently utilized the dogs for Molly and "appears" to have made some progress moving the case forward, then it sure wouldn't hurt to see if they can be equally effective for baby Deorr. Not sure if fees associated for that to occur, but I'm sure someone can always set up another Go Fund Me for that if necessary. See where those dogs go, if anywhere, and take it from there.

And as far as Vass and his Labrador device, I believe his grant/research was funded by (or in part) by the FBI, and since FBI was/is involved, I was hoping maybe they could "try it out" on this case (if they haven't already tried it out unbeknownst to us.) What can it hurt? If I held that patent, I would certainly want to test it out as much as possible to determine it's accuracy and then refine as required and possibly even publish additional papers as to its efficacy or otherwise. Take that device and walk it around the campsite up and around the reservoir, around some of the ping locations, around some homes, etc, and see if any whistles or bells occur signaling a clandestine grave. (I also wonder if it would hit by the reservoir because of the cremains dumped and any resultant implications.)

Wouldn't matter to me if parents participated or not or were playing games or not. Again, depending on if it is even available as of 2016, if there is $ required, I'm sure it can be raised somehow if funds are not available. Just more food for thought and all IMOO

 

[Rayemonde]

Last year Bowerman was telling search teams not to go and search for DeOrr because he was sure he wasn't there. I wonder if that has changed - hopefully he has new leads about new places to search once the snow melts.