You can't do what you don't know.....

[DeeDee249]

Lovingly? Where do you get that? She had a deep furrow around her neck, and fractured skull, a large hemorrhage on her neck, other unexplained injuries in various places on her body. There was this 2nd ligature you don't even know what it was for. You'll claim you do when you really don't.

She was dressed, wrapped in a blanket, with tape over her mouth. This is JBR packed to-go, exactly appropriate for a winter night kidnapping.

Duh. Its not rocket science. Not for some of us anyway.

Far be it from me to impune your IQ. I would never enter a battle of wits with a half-armed person. It wouldn't be fair. That being said, of course her injuries were not done LOVINGLY. But wrapping her up like that was. And this isn't the first time that has been said on the forums. So I rather resent your targeting me.
I'll show you my Mensa membership if you show me yours.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Far be it from me to impune your IQ. I would never enter a battle of wits with a half-armed person. It wouldn't be fair. That being said, of course her injuries were not done LOVINGLY. But wrapping her up like that was. And this isn't the first time that has been said on the forums. So I rather resent your targeting me.
I'll show you my Mensa membership if you show me yours.

OK JBR's body was lovingly wrapped in a blanket. I suppose you'll be telling us next that JBR's mouth was lovingly covered with black duct tape??

What would you need to kidnap a small child during winter? A blanket, some cord for the arms/legs, and some tape for the mouth perhaps? Just brainstorming here.

 

[MomofBoys]

OK JBR's body was lovingly wrapped in a blanket. I suppose you'll be telling us next that JBR's mouth was lovingly covered with black duct tape??

Wow, you're condescending in a way I haven't yet seen on this site. The "it's not rocket science" in particular was very snide. All I can say is thank goodness, because I left my aeronautical engineering degree in my other pants.

Irregardless, anyone who follows these cases knows that a victim is more likely to be covered by a parent, relative, or friend than a stranger. They have the irrational fear that the body will be "cold." They want the body to be comfortable. Even if the death was intentional; it's like some kind of psychological concession, a guilt mitigator, if you will. I would have to assume that either you don't know that, or you're just trying dismiss a point because of a single word choice.

What would you need to kidnap a small child during winter? A blanket, some cord for the arms/legs, and some tape for the mouth perhaps? Just brainstorming here.

Yes, but sometime during this kidnapping, they forgot the small child. Instead of choosing an easier exit, they fumbled around the house, took time to pen a three page ransom note (before or after the death, it still strains credulity) but apparently didn't have the time to take the child with them. Even if she was dead, you can't very well expect to collect a ransom (the presumed motive) if the parents find your hostage in their own home. Any intruder had to have an exit plan, and I wouldn't think that a 'small foreign faction' comprised of a 'group of individuals' whose motives are to strike back at the US would suddenly chicken out when faced with a dead victim. Dead or alive, she still had value to them. If the goal was the money, their objective could still be met.

If she was "packaged to go" as you say, then what difference did it make? They could still potentially get a wire transfer AND dispose of the body more efficiently. Maybe during the time it took to write the note on Ramsey paper with a Ramsey pen. Perhaps one of the group could have driven off with their objective.

I'd think a small foreign faction would be organized enough to bring their own rope, tape, paper, pen, and packaging material, but maybe they were blinded by their rage at the US. After all, there's no better way to get back at a world power than to kill one six year-old in a small city in Colorado, and then never take credit for the crime.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Wow, you're condescending in a way I haven't yet seen on this site. The "it's not rocket science" in particular was very snide. All I can say is thank goodness, because I left my aeronautical engineering degree in my other pants.

Irregardless, anyone who follows these cases knows that a victim is more likely to be covered by a parent, relative, or friend than a stranger. They have the irrational fear that the body will be "cold." They want the body to be comfortable. Even if the death was intentional; it's like some kind of psychological concession, a guilt mitigator, if you will. I would have to assume that either you don't know that, or you're just trying dismiss a point because of a single word choice.

JBR's mouth was covered with tape because...?

Remember that blanket, cord, and tape would be required if JBR was to be kidnapped and taken from the house alive. Just a thought.

I'd be less condescending if you used real words. Irregardless isn't a real word.

 

[MomofBoys]

JBR's mouth was covered with tape because...?

Remember that blanket, cord, and tape would be required if JBR was to be kidnapped and taken from the house alive. Just a thought.

I'd be less condescending if you used real words. Irregardless isn't a real word.

Oh, you got me.

Origin:
1910–15; ir- 2 (prob. after irrespective) + regardless
Usage note:
Irregardless is considered nonstandard because of the two negative elements ir- and -less. It was probably formed on the analogy of such words as irrespective, irrelevant, and irreparable. Those who use it, including on occasion educated speakers, may do so from a desire to add emphasis. Irregardless first appeared in the early 20th century and was perhaps popularized by its use in a comic radio program of the 1930s.

Anyway, topic.

Her mouth was covered with tape to stage a kidnapping, but the Ramseys didn't seem to think leaving the house was necessary, I guess. My point was that real kidnappers with the intent to actually gain something from or profit off of their crime would take the target with them. They wouldn't leave the target, and even if they were banking on the body not being found right away, wouldn't they have followed up on the ransom demand?

I mean, we can discuss the ransom note all day long and talk about syntax and writing samples and statement analysis until we turn blue, but the biggest clue is that the ransom note was pointless. No one ever called. Let's say that's because she was dead and they fled. Then that would infer that they sat there in the Ramsey kitchen penning the note before they began their operation. That is brazen in a way I can't comprehend.

 

[Mendara]

Oh, you got me.




Anyway, topic.

Her mouth was covered with tape to stage a kidnapping, but the Ramseys didn't seem to think leaving the house was necessary, I guess. My point was that real kidnappers with the intent to actually gain something from or profit off of their crime would take the target with them. They wouldn't leave the target, and even if they were banking on the body not being found right away, wouldn't they have followed up on the ransom demand?
I mean, we can discuss the ransom note all day long and talk about syntax and writing samples and statement analysis until we turn blue, but the biggest clue is that the ransom note was pointless. No one ever called. Let's say that's because she was dead and they fled. Then that would infer that they sat there in the Ramsey kitchen penning the note before they began their operation. That is brazen in a way I can't comprehend.

Not if the only gain they sought was to have fun with the Ramseys and watch them suffer. If they were watching the news and saw she was found, why would they call?

I think the person enjoyed watching everyone wonder what the heck happened, maybe still does.

 

[MomofBoys]

Not if the only gain they sought was to have fun with the Ramseys and watch them suffer. If they were watching the news and saw she was found, why would they call?

Well, then I guess I miss the point of the note. Even before I followed cases as closely as I do now, I would have known that a note could hold a treasure trove of evidence. A three page letter just to have some fun? To make threats that were never followed up upon? JBR wasn't beheaded. There was no reason to mention such a specific ransom amount, unless they wanted to point in the general direction of themselves. If they really wanted to have fun, why not just say "Please deliver three billion dollars to this location"? Really drive in the dagger of futility.

The intruder couldn't have foreseen the media circus this became. If this was to enjoy the Ramsey suffering, they would have had to be at the scene, I would think. And how sorely disappointed they would have been if the Ramseys had immediately flown to Atlanta as planned? Stoic John must have been a true disappointment.

I guess my point is the same. The RN was completely pointless in pretty much any scenario. No ransom was ever collected, no intent was made to collect it, and it only served to point to the real killer, whether it ended up being key to an arrest or not. What kind of moron writes a three page note in the house, before or after killing a child? The RN wasn't key to their suffering. If the Ramseys were/are innocent, a dead little girl would be all the excuse they need to suffer. The note would have just given some hope, a respite. Also fear, but just the fact that their daughter couldn't be accounted for would accomplish that.

 

[Tadpole12]

Hi Mendara.

"I think the intruder wanted her body to remain hidden in the basement for a while, at least until his first call.

The game ended too soon for him." - Mendara


very interesting points with respect to the IDI sadist angle.
How long till the cadaver would emit a stench? Was the 'wine cellar' room not heated? Wouldn't the 'eventual' search have discovered JBR body?

 

[Tadpole12]

Hey MoB.

"The intruder couldn't have foreseen the media circus this became." - MoB

How true.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Hi Mendara.

"I think the intruder wanted her body to remain hidden in the basement for a while, at least until his first call.

The game ended too soon for him." - Mendara


very interesting points with respect to the IDI sadist angle.
How long till the cadaver would emit a stench? Was the 'wine cellar' room not heated? Wouldn't the 'eventual' search have discovered JBR body?

I'd thought of this, but was unwilling to express it. I believe that would've been the outcome had LA not astutely asked JR to again search the house. She asked him to do that after the expected phone call didn't come. Its obvious that at that time LA did not suspect JR, or she wouldn't have asked him to do policework. They possibly stole that part of the 'game' from the perp, IMO. In any case, it was far more desirable for JR to find JBR when he did.

Its one of the most admirable things LE has done in this case.

The other admirable thing LE has done is to not fall prey to circular reasoning. They've been evidence-driven. LE has not looked at the whole picture from the standpoint of the R's being guilty, and then created fictional ideas on-the-fly to account for every bit of new evidence.

 

[BBB167893]

Lovingly? Where do you get that?

DELIGHTED that you ask!

PMPT, page 498:

The killer cared about the victim and wanted her found. The child had been wrapped in a white blanket, her Barbie nightgown found lying next to her. Such caring and solicitude were not usually associated with a malevolent criminal.

She had a deep furrow around her neck, and fractured skull, a large hemorrhage on her neck, other unexplained injuries in various places on her body. There was this 2nd ligature you don't even know what it was for. You'll claim you do when you really don't.

Speaking for myself, I know what I know.

Duh. Its not rocket science. Not for some of us anyway.

How right you are!

 

[BBB167893]

Wow, you're condescending in a way I haven't yet seen on this site. The "it's not rocket science" in particular was very snide. All I can say is thank goodness, because I left my aeronautical engineering degree in my other pants.

Yeah, you'll have to expect that from him. Makes me REAL mad.

Irregardless, anyone who follows these cases knows that a victim is more likely to be covered by a parent, relative, or friend than a stranger. They have the irrational fear that the body will be "cold." They want the body to be comfortable. Even if the death was intentional; it's like some kind of psychological concession, a guilt mitigator, if you will. I would have to assume that either you don't know that, or you're just trying dismiss a point because of a single word choice.

Beautiful.

 

[BBB167893]

The other admirable thing LE has done is to not fall prey to circular reasoning. They've been evidence-driven.

Are we talking about the same case?

LE has not looked at the whole picture from the standpoint of the R's being guilty, and then created fictional ideas on-the-fly to account for every bit of new evidence.

Nope. It was the other way around!

 

[Tadpole12]

I'd thought of this, but was unwilling to express it.

Hey.
Well, hotyh. I have always thought of you as most expressive. (compliment)
That dead smell has a radius, even a gagging radius (gag before you smell it)... so I wondered based on personal experience .... the stench, it's like a wall when you hit it

I believe that would've been the outcome had LA not astutely asked JR to again search the house. She asked him to do that after the expected phone call didn't come. Its obvious that at that time LA did not suspect JR, or she wouldn't have asked him to do policework. They possibly stole that part of the 'game' from the perp, IMO. In any case, it was far more desirable for JR to find JBR when he did.

IDI game, so if the body had not been found, would the perp have admonished JR for the police involvement? http://njspmuseum.blogspot.com/2008/02/one-of-most-fascinating-areas-of-study.html

Its one of the most admirable things LE has done in this case.

I respect that.

The other admirable thing LE has done is to not fall prey to circular reasoning. They've been evidence-driven. LE has not looked at the whole picture from the standpoint of the R's being guilty, and then created fictional ideas on-the-fly to account for every bit of new evidence.

Well you're right on that point. It's near impossible to reconcile the pattern of distribution of the unidentified dna with the RDI scenarios, unless it is an artifact, contamination or another party at the crime scene.

And ya there's so much grey area, that for sure it has to be sketched in with speculation or imagination.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Well you're right on that point. It's near impossible to reconcile the pattern of distribution of the unidentified dna with the RDI scenarios, unless it is an artifact, contamination or another party at the crime scene.

Yeah, there used to be a poster here who spouted almost constantly that there was 'no evidence of an intruder'. Now, with DNA showing up in three criminally conspicuous places, and the DA going out of their way to clear the R's while BPD is silent, I'd have to say there now IS evidence of an intruder. Its official.

 

[DeeDee249]

Hi Mendara.

"I think the intruder wanted her body to remain hidden in the basement for a while, at least until his first call.

The game ended too soon for him." - Mendara


very interesting points with respect to the IDI sadist angle.
How long till the cadaver would emit a stench? Was the 'wine cellar' room not heated? Wouldn't the 'eventual' search have discovered JBR body?

Detective Arndt reported an "odor of decay" about the body when JR brought her up, approx. 12 hours after death. At that point, it isn't really a stench yet, but rather a sickly-sweet odor that is the result of bacterial activity in the intestines. That is where the most prolific bacteria are located, and at death, there are plenty of anaerobic bacteria there that begin the process of decomposition. A body will first show an area of greenish discoloration on the abdomen over the intestinal area. Though Mayer didn't mention this, he noted "soft green fecal material" on autopsy. Had she gone longer unrefrigerated, there would have been that greenish discoloration over her abdomen.
The powerful stench that is unmistakable to forensic workers and police takes a bit longer, and is the result of what is known as wet decomposition. Though JBR was in the basement, it is still considered "average room temperature" because it was cooler than the house but not really cold. At those temps, a body might begin wet decomposition around 20- 24 hours later. The coroner first saw JBR at about 18 hours after death, and at that time she had been in the living room for about 7 hours. She was then moved to the morgue and refrigerated, so decomp is slowed down at that point. Not indefinitely, but kept cold, it can be delayed a little while. Embalming can delay the process even further, but won't stop it.
You make a good point because JBR would have been found by virtue of that unmistakable odor eventually. Cadaver dogs wouldn't have been needed. I believe that is one of the reasons why JR rushed to "find" her. When LE failed to find the body and it became apparent that LE was not going to simply pick up and leave, he had to find her. Before she began to decompose. Because he then realized that LE wasn't leaving and they might have to leave the house themselves before she was found. Connect the dots...neighbors complaining of a foul stench....and the horribly decomposing body of JBR. No open casket. No tiny beauty queen dressed in a poufy pageant dress with tiara. Yep. The "proper burial" the note mentioned specifically. He HAD to find JBR, and would have likely done so even if LA hadn't told him to "look around".

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Well you're right on that point. It's near impossible to reconcile the pattern of distribution of the unidentified dna with the RDI scenarios, unless it is an artifact, contamination or another party at the crime scene.

The DA did not state "The DNA was transferred by an intruder" as if they came to that conclusion, since it could be there by innocent transfer. Instead, the DA stated that innocent transfer was 'highly unlikely' because of the locations where the DNA was found. Based on this likelihood, the R's are considered to be most likely innocent. Thats called an evidence-driven investigation. Its what separates the men from the boys.

In contrast, the statement "PR wrote the note" obviously isn't evidence-driven. I mean, NONE of the BPD handwriting experts stated that, when they had no bias or interference. If you've already decided RDI, then of course PR wrote the note. Either that or JR wrote it, right? RDI would accept that either way.

 

[Ravyn]

But you have to remember it was Jr running around in the basement by himself.The R's made themselves look quilty.And a normal parent wouldn't destory evidence.OMG the R's left this to happen to someone's child and if it was a sadist attack it most likely would had happen again cause how you say the thrill to watch the parents.So trying to tell me it was an intruder I don't think so.

 

[Tadpole12]

Detective Arndt reported an "odor of decay" about the body when JR brought her up, approx. 12 hours after death. At that point, it isn't really a stench yet, but rather a sickly-sweet odor that is the result of bacterial activity in the intestines. That is where the most prolific bacteria are located, and at death, there are plenty of anaerobic bacteria there that begin the process of decomposition. A body will first show an area of greenish discoloration on the abdomen over the intestinal area. Though Mayer didn't mention this, he noted "soft green fecal material" on autopsy. Had she gone longer unrefrigerated, there would have been that greenish discoloration over her abdomen.
The powerful stench that is unmistakable to forensic workers and police takes a bit longer, and is the result of what is known as wet decomposition. Though JBR was in the basement, it is still considered "average room temperature" because it was cooler than the house but not really cold. At those temps, a body might begin wet decomposition around 20- 24 hours later. The coroner first saw JBR at about 18 hours after death, and at that time she had been in the living room for about 7 hours. She was then moved to the morgue and refrigerated, so decomp is slowed down at that point. Not indefinitely, but kept cold, it can be delayed a little while. Embalming can delay the process even further, but won't stop it.
You make a good point because JBR would have been found by virtue of that unmistakable odor eventually. Cadaver dogs wouldn't have been needed. I believe that is one of the reasons why JR rushed to "find" her. When LE failed to find the body and it became apparent that LE was not going to simply pick up and leave, he had to find her. Before she began to decompose. Because he then realized that LE wasn't leaving and they might have to leave the house themselves before she was found. Connect the dots...neighbors complaining of a foul stench....and the horribly decomposing body of JBR. No open casket. No tiny beauty queen dressed in a poufy pageant dress with tiara. Yep. The "proper burial" the note mentioned specifically. He HAD to find JBR, and would have likely done so even if LA hadn't told him to "look around".

Hi DeeDee,
Thankyou again for the always informative and concise posts!
I always enjoy and am informed by reading your take.

 

[Tadpole12]

The DA did not state "The DNA was transferred by an intruder" as if they came to that conclusion, since it could be there by innocent transfer. Instead, the DA stated that innocent transfer was 'highly unlikely' because of the locations where the DNA was found. Based on this likelihood, the R's are considered to be most likely innocent. Thats called an evidence-driven investigation. Its what separates the men from the boys.

In contrast, the statement "PR wrote the note" obviously isn't evidence-driven. I mean, NONE of the BPD handwriting experts stated that, when they had no bias or interference. If you've already decided RDI, then of course PR wrote the note. Either that or JR wrote it, right? RDI would accept that either way.

Hey Hotyh.

hmm .... evidence driven?
okay, I see the distinction.
dna exact science, handwriting analysis subjective, quanitative