Syringe in bottle contained traces of chloroform

[Everly]

I think this chloroform/needle may be an incidental red herring.

Testosterone is soluble in ethanol and in chloroform. The testosterone used is usually crystalline in form and is dissolved in the ethanol and/or chloroform, I believe. So, I think that the testosterone you inject would contain trace amounts of chloroform that would have been used to process it as an injectable.

A testosterone injection would be an intramuscular injection, meaning you need an IM needle on your syringe and I think those are about 1 and 1/2" long. Looks about right on the pics posted earlier on this thread.

What the FBI found in that syringe: testosterone, chloroform and ethanol, may have been just someone's testosterone injection and it was discarded by them in a near-empty plastic bottle, improperly.

I think it's very possible that it has nothing to do with Caylee's case, UNLESS we hear about DNA or fingerprints on it. I don't think the liquid left in the bottle was the same as what was in the syringe. Is there any indication of that in documents?

All that said, ruling out the syringe as evidence does nothing to explain the chloroform fumes in the car or Casey's searches for making chloroform.

(Please, anyone with a better chemistry or medical background correct me on anything I have surmised. I just interpreted what I found on the internet)

 

[Sedonia Sunset]

I am not thinking AT ALL that she would inject it...it really is not used that way....even when Chloroform was used for anesthesia in the old days..it was through a mask, inhaled. Never heard of injecting Chloroform.

Yeah, but Casey's not known for her smarts.

 

[QuietStorm]

I had missed the picture of the syringe with needle attached before I posted...very disturbing.

I have no idea where the testosterone came from but am looking for some info on it.

I remember early in the case where KC had AL's roommate's garbage in her car. Perhaps he or some other male in KC's life shot testosterone and that's where the needle came from. Hope there is DNA on it or in it.

 

[Tuffy]

I don't think she'd have any trouble getting her hands on some... makes more sense than making it. I mean, if I wanted some chloroform I'd just go up to the college I went to and I could easily pick some up. It's a pretty common solvent in lab work, anybody that REALLY wants to get their hands on some would probably be able to snatch it from our Organic Lab, P-Chem Lab, any of the research labs, or even from the chemical stockroom. If she didn't do that she could have just logged onto Sigma-Aldrich or Fisher Scientific and ordered a couple liters of it. I don't think you have to have a license to order supplies from a chemical company... but I've never tried to order something for personal use. I do know that anybody can log into their website and set up an account... go and try it out... see for yourself how easy it is. Kinda scary when you think about it, huh?
I have no idea about what could have been in that syringe. Nothing comes to mind right off... but I'll think on it, do some research, and ask around for some ideas.

I don't think that making chloroform sounded all that difficult. The site said it could be made using household items (acetone, bleach) I could see her making it herself.

If she didn't steal it though, there would be a record of her having ordered it from a chemical supply company, like Sigma or Fisher.

She could have stolen it or made it, I wouldn't rule either one out. IMO

 

[BeanE]

I have a friend who has problems with penal erections and he injects himself with some medicine from the urlogist into the base of his penis. GA had high blood pressure and that is one of the most common causes for this problem. Could be that KC took the syringe and packaging right out of her parents bathroom after GA injected himself therefore explaining the male hormone found in the syringe.

Do not want to think about this.

 

[Tuffy]

Diluted with testosterone? Perhaps not strong enough to degrade the plastic. Wasn't a pure solution.

The article on chloroform said it will "weld" acrylic, not melt it.

 

[catnron]

I'm working on a theory...

• KC didn't make the chloroform - too hard & too lazy.
• One place she could have gotten it was the Tattoo shop. While chloroform is a banned substance in cleaning supplies, a quick Google search shows that it is used in tat shops
• Quick forum search and this was validated by a tat shop worker who posted here
• Ok - KC visited the tattoo parlour the week before she got the tattoo, didn't she? (It sounds as if she would drop in there fairly often - have to refresh my brain)
• Anyway, while researching chloroform online she notes use by tattoo artists OR she happens to see her buddy cleaning his equipment with it during a visit to the parlour
• Next visit brings a gatorade bottle with her --> Bathroom is likely near back of shop, where cleaning supplies are usually kept - inc. chloroform --> 'scuse please, I have to pee
• Swipes bottle of chloroform and tosses in backpack, or pours some in juice-bottle while in bathroom
• puts it in the trunk when she leaves
• as she is fiddling with it in the process of murdering Caylee, she spills some in the trunk. Perhaps be pouring from stolen bottle into smaller Gatorade bottle, or dousing the cloth (Mama Doll's clothes?) Many scenarios here - regardless she spilled some or it leaked.
• > CA got rid of the bigger bottle when she was cleaning out the trunk, in my little theory, btw... just sayin' <
• I still haven't seen anything definitive in regards to the amount of chloroform that was actually registering in the syringe, so I'm still on the fence about that (could be chloroform from the testing 'postive control solution' from what I am reading in the reports & results print-outs - won't know until someone figures out the amount registered)
• So at this point syringe is only part of this theory in that KC shoved the syringe in the bottle - perhaps she injected Caylee with testosterone and used Mama Doll's clothing to apply the chloroform, perhaps it was just an artifact lieing in her trunk from when she stole Tony's garbage. Lots of possibilities

Bottom-line - she might have stolen chloroform, quite possibly from the tattoo shop, and she spilled or it leaked in the trunk.

Thoughts?

Casey may have just poured some in the trunk thinking it would take the smell away and all evidence

 

[catnron]

Oh RR, the whole thing is just so, so gruesome, isn't it? How did it really happen? We might never know. I don't think it would seep though the plastic enough to rate the high scales of chloroform. It doesn't seem like an injection into the body would cause it either, does it? Seems like a pervasive method has to account for the high levels, huh? Makes it sound like if we think it was injected that we would have to blame a leaky Gator Ade bottle or else the bottle isn't connected and she must have used a rag soaked method. What else? Brainstorm here with me. What are the other options?

I am thinking she taped Caylees mouth shut, then injected it into Caylees mouth and that is where the pin holes in the tape come from?

 

[catnron]

I don't think that making chloroform sounded all that difficult. The site said it could be made using household items (acetone, bleach) I could see her making it herself.

If she didn't steal it though, there would be a record of her having ordered it from a chemical supply company, like Sigma or Fisher.

She could have stolen it or made it, I wouldn't rule either one out. IMO

Also if she did not plan on making it, why would she research it on her putor?

 

[Wudge]

I am aware of that, that is why I specifically mentioned kidnapping.

on a side note:
Did you just admit a murder took place???:woohoo: lol

It's but a 'murder' charge.

On a sidenote, here is Nancy Grace's lead-in last night. "Tonight, we learn found at the crime scene, along with little Caylee`s remains, syringes loaded with chloroform, the super-powerful knock-out drug, the same drug found in tot mom`s car trunk. With the deadly syringes, a Gatorade bottle also loaded with chloroform, the bombshell suggesting tot mom cooked up homemade chloroform, carried it in the Gatorade bottle, then injecting it directly into her 2-year-old girl`s body, bound with duct tape."

LE didn't find a single syringe. LE found syringes.

The lab didn't find traces of chloroform. The lab said the syringes were 'loaded' with chloroform.

LE didn't find duct tape only on Caylee's face. LE found that Caylee's body was 'bound' with duct tape.


(This, ladies and gentlemen, shows how jury pools get poisoned, knowingly.)

 

[Beatrice]

From NG:

Bleach + Ethanol = Chloroform

 

[PoppyH]

It's but a 'murder' charge.

On a sidenote, here is Nancy Grace's lead-in last night. "Tonight, we learn found at the crime scene, along with little Caylee`s remains, syringes loaded with chloroform, the super-powerful knock-out drug, the same drug found in tot mom`s car trunk. With the deadly syringes, a Gatorade bottle also loaded with chloroform, the bombshell suggesting tot mom cooked up homemade chloroform, carried it in the Gatorade bottle, then injecting it directly into her 2-year-old girl`s body, bound with duct tape."

LE didn't find a single syringe. LE found syringes.

The lab didn't find traces of chloroform. The lab said the syringes were 'loaded' with chloroform.

LE didn't find duct tape only on Caylee's face. LE found that Caylee's body was 'bound' with duct tape.


(This, ladies and gentlemen, shows how jury pools get poisoned, knowingly.)

I doubt very seriously that Nancy Grace stories will be played to the jurors,

The jury will base thier decision on the evidence and whatnot presented to them, not what Nancy Grace or the tabloids are saying, with that being said, Im going by what LE has released so far, and of course the big thing, 31 days not being reported missing, avoiding her faimly etc, that speaks volumes in itself , the lies etc, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this one out

 

[Tulessa]

I think chloroform is also used in preserving food for refrigeration. So, if you had a bag of oscar mayer pork or tyson chicken in your trunk, I suppose the juice left over in the bag could break down to coffin wax and produce coffin flies and l believe also that animal decomp produces chloroform.

A question I asked the good Doctor myself.

Tulessa said, on October 2, 2009 at 3:59 pm
Just a quick question. Can bacon grease be mistaken for grave wax? Say, wiped on a paper towel?

Reply
D.P. Lyle, MD said, on October 2, 2009 at 5:11 pm
It’s possible at least visually–particularly if it has been there a while and has dried to a denser consistency.

Reply
Tulessa said, on October 3, 2009 at 4:23 am
Ok, I should have been more clear on what I was asking. In a case in Florida, the FBI determined that Grave wax was found on some paper towels in the trunk of a car. Some people have said that it could be plain ole bacon grease. Is that so? Would the FBI not know the difference? Thanks hun!


D.P. Lyle, MD said, on October 3, 2009 at 6:07 am
Visually they might appear similar but the lab would have no trouble distinguishing one from the other.

http://writersforensicsblog.wordpress.com/2009/05/14/dead-folks-and-decay/#comment-534

 

[Sdavidson11]

I'd like to know how it seeped out in the trunk...enough to register in the air sample. If she had injected Caylee with it, I don't think it would have come through her pores...but with decomposition perhaps it could. If the bottle was capped and in the trunk, would there be seeping through the plastic? Would they be able to see that on the bottle (tiny holes)? Could she possibly have transfered the chloroform to the Gatorade bottle from another container inside the trunk? The thing is, if the chloroform had been open, she would have been at risk of being overcome.

It is my opinion that we give kc to much credit. I think the chloroform worked so well on sweet Caylee, that when the flies started showing up kc may have just poured some on the liner where the flies were growing. I get queasy saying the other word. As far as her being overcome, at this point I think she was feeling invincible. Everything was working according to her plan, TL every night, fusion Friday's and no G&C. To her life was good, she just needed to get rid of the darn smell in her car. I also agree with your theory that the transfer could have happened also. There is still so much unknown but I do feel that there is a connection to kc. Puter,car,syringe by Caylee.

 

[ZsaZsa]

It's but a 'murder' charge.

On a sidenote, here is Nancy Grace's lead-in last night. "Tonight, we learn found at the crime scene, along with little Caylee`s remains, syringes loaded with chloroform, the super-powerful knock-out drug, the same drug found in tot mom`s car trunk. With the deadly syringes, a Gatorade bottle also loaded with chloroform, the bombshell suggesting tot mom cooked up homemade chloroform, carried it in the Gatorade bottle, then injecting it directly into her 2-year-old girl`s body, bound with duct tape."

LE didn't find a single syringe. LE found syringes.

The lab didn't find traces of chloroform. The lab said the syringes were 'loaded' with chloroform.

LE didn't find duct tape only on Caylee's face. LE found that Caylee's body was 'bound' with duct tape.


(This, ladies and gentlemen, shows how jury pools get poisoned, knowingly.)

I suppose the same jury pool could be 'poisoned' by all the statements the defense has made too, which involve far more hyperbole.

 

[Tulessa]

Can you provide a link please? :waitasec:

JWG, I did and it's not even possible.

 

[bisaillon]

Testosterone: I'll bet that the defense will use this to try to say that it's proof a MAN (jesse?) did this to Caylee...

 

[ZsaZsa]

Testosterone: I'll bet that the defense will use this to try to say that it's proof a MAN (jesse?) did this to Caylee...

Yes, of course. Now we see why Casey wanted to get into JG's bathroom, for a 'shower'.

 

[snow_walker]

I wonder if KC might have thought that chloroform was a preservative.. tried to 'preserve' the body with it, both through injecting some and spilling some on and around the bags and body, or perhaps onto the body inside the bags... If so, the plastic garbage bags would melt (I think).. I have been trying to determine what effect chloroform might have on plastic, but it seems it may vary according to what kind of plastic..
Actually I doubt she would try injecting it into the body, but maybe she just tried injecting it through the plastic bags

 

[BeanE]

It's but a 'murder' charge.

On a sidenote, here is Nancy Grace's lead-in last night. "Tonight, we learn found at the crime scene, along with little Caylee`s remains, syringes loaded with chloroform, the super-powerful knock-out drug, the same drug found in tot mom`s car trunk. With the deadly syringes, a Gatorade bottle also loaded with chloroform, the bombshell suggesting tot mom cooked up homemade chloroform, carried it in the Gatorade bottle, then injecting it directly into her 2-year-old girl`s body, bound with duct tape."

LE didn't find a single syringe. LE found syringes.

The lab didn't find traces of chloroform. The lab said the syringes were 'loaded' with chloroform.

LE didn't find duct tape only on Caylee's face. LE found that Caylee's body was 'bound' with duct tape.


(This, ladies and gentlemen, shows how jury pools get poisoned, knowingly.)

But but but, Wudge... Nancy didn't say that "LE found" or "The lab said" anything.

It's a television show whose purpose is to entertainment and/or make money, not a court of law in which attorneys are presenting evidence, and a judge is instructing a jury, with the purpose of determining a person's guilt or innocence. It's hard for me to imagine that a juror would watch a television show, sleep through or ignore the entire trial, then make a decision based on the tv show they watched. I wonder how many cases of wrongful conviction there've been in which that happened.

On another note, I did not know that chloroform was super-powerful. I thought it was just powerful. But if Nancy Grace says so, it must be true.